Another thread about sexism in video games.

Dwarvenhobble

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Sorry for the multiple posts I've tried to sort of compress a lot of replies into a few posts as I was taking a break from socio politics stuff.

So...if a game is released to a worldwide mass market, why is the world not allowed to criticize it based strictly on geography? Especially if it's, say, Koreans criticizing the Korean character? How does that make sense?

EDIT: Fuck's sake, according to this logic you shouldn't give a shit that Japanese audiences loved Ghosts of Tsushima because it wasn't made for or by them
This is kind of where issues come in because what you have are 2 separate arguments being combined.

The main issue is the idea of cultural lenses vs attempted sincerity.

Basically is the piece of media showing said cultural perspective or viewing something else through that lens. E.G. Suda 51's games meant to be set in America but you're clearly seeing a Japanese guy's viewing of American culture rather than something attempting to emulate said culture's works. You're seeing an artists perspective on the work. Compare that with I dunno Marvel's Shang Chi which was meant to be a Western studio doing an Eastern style Martial arts esc film.

Criticising a piece of media for showing a perspective from a certain cultural background is like criticising a Bollywood film for having too much dancing and too many musical numbers in it. You can do it but you'll look like a bit of an idiot and likely get some people mocking you because that's kind of some of the cultural stuff Bollywood has as part of its core. It's a highly subjective personal criticism of little worth to those who know about and enjoy Bollywood films for the chance to experience said cultural elements and perspective.

Meanwhile if it's trying to showcase itself as set somewhere and trying to be authentic or somewhat authentic you could criticise it for screwing up cultural elements. The only example I can thing of is Call of Juarez The Cartel where is screws up depicting the realities of Mexican drug smuggling rings etc.

Plus, like, Blizzard is big in Korea.

Plus Plus, it's hilarious how The West gets to be this huge, homogeneous Mayo culture despite being 3 continents with dozens of cultures, countries, and more than a few languages

EditEdit, because this is a nesting doll of stuff and I've been up for over 30 hours now:
Well they're not is the simple answer. You'll often be able to tell cultural elements and trappings in films from different areas. While it's not exactly the West the former Soviet block countries do tend to have a style to their output as does Russian media. See the Stalker series, Metro Last Light and a fair few other stuff from former soviet block countries whose games and films that have come over to the west

You can't turn off the click sound your cellphone makes when it takes a picture in Korea because of the prevalence of upskirt photography. So yeah, when that starts showing up in gameplay it's gonna be commented on. Glad you find it amusing.
1) Well clearly the cultural view of that is it's not good but prevalent otherwise there wouldn't be a rule about the click sound.
2) There are already a few games that have this in them...........I dunno if it ever made it to the West but I seem to remember one that was planned to come over called Disaster Report or something.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Its boob plate, there is no reason for boob plate unless you are going for sexy silly.
Well based on Shadiversity (youtuber who looks at and talk about medieval weapons a lot) he did talk about Boob Armour and pointed out medieval armour in some periods just had impractical things on it for style reasons and because it didn't detract that much from the armour because if it was well made it wouldn't matter. E.G. Penis armour was a thing for a while because codpieces were a popular fashion item.

 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Well based on Shadiversity (youtuber who looks at and talk about medieval weapons a lot) he did talk about Boob Armour and pointed out medieval armour in some periods just had impractical things on it for style reasons and because it didn't detract that much from the armour because if it was well made it wouldn't matter. E.G. Penis armour was a thing for a while because codpieces were a popular fashion item.

It can be angled so that it wouldn't be a detriment, but that doesn't mean individual cups, if a thrust hits an individual cup then it could be deflected into the chest, which you don't want. If the chest was just pushed out a bit then that would probably be mostly fine. Cod pieces were silly, but also in an area where a bit of extra armor isn't going to hurt, its also an awkward place to attack, the really big ones were almost pure fashion.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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We just had an amazing selling game with boob plate that wasn't stupid because the people making it went for function over sexiness. How are we still having this discussion?
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Like, obviously not all armor with curves is automatically sexist. Nobody is making that argument
 

Dwarvenhobble

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It can be angled so that it wouldn't be a detriment, but that doesn't mean individual cups, if a thrust hits an individual cup then it could be deflected into the chest, which you don't want. If the chest was just pushed out a bit then that would probably be mostly fine. Cod pieces were silly, but also in an area where a bit of extra armor isn't going to hurt, its also an awkward place to attack, the really big ones were almost pure fashion.
Well as he pointed out there were kinds of armour designed around not having to deflect the blows (like the armour he's wearing in the video)
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
We just had an amazing selling game with boob plate that wasn't stupid because the people making it went for function over sexiness. How are we still having this discussion?

Like, obviously not all armor with curves is automatically sexist. Nobody is making that argument
Actually her chest piece is fine, the lower part of her armor is that stupid form fitting thing we love to do with female characters, but the chest plate looks nicely functional.

Well as he pointed out there were kinds of armour designed around not having to deflect the blows (like the armour he's wearing in the video)
I don't have time to watch his vid now, maybe later, but the main reason to wear armor is to deflect blows (shrapnel counts as blows). Plus if we are talking medival style plate then you would also have a gambeson under and maybe chain over that then you would have plate. None of this form fitting bs. The only reason to have armor with boob cups is for fun and conversation or if you are doing a silly sexy game.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Actually her chest piece is fine, the lower part of her armor is that stupid form fitting thing we love to do with female characters, but the chest plate looks nicely functional.


I don't have time to watch his vid now, maybe later, but the main reason to wear armor is to deflect blows (shrapnel counts as blows). Plus if we are talking medival style plate then you would also have a gambeson under and maybe chain over that then you would have plate. None of this form fitting bs. The only reason to have armor with boob cups is for fun and conversation or if you are doing a silly sexy game.
Well he's wearing a brigandine which is a fairly form fitting type of armour
 

AnxietyProne

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No it's rooted in wanting to go on adventures with the busty warrior maiden and be banging her at night when you've set up camp because you both think the other is fucking awesome.
You really haven't seen what's on Loverslab, have you? I can show you, if you like.

Would you like me to start with the multiple beastility mods? The scat eating? The vore mods?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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You really haven't seen what's on Loverslab, have you? I can show you, if you like.

Would you like me to start with the multiple beastility mods? The scat eating? The vore mods?
oh....... oh no....... yeh no I didn't know what was on there.......I don't think I want to know either really
 

AnxietyProne

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oh....... oh no....... yeh no I didn't know what was on there.......I don't think I want to know either really
Yea. I thought so.

See, here's the thing; I'm not a kink shamer. I don't care if someone is cranking their hog to anything on LL (they do draw the line at kiddie diddling material at least), but don't pretend that the adult sex modding for Skyrim is limited only to a roll in the hay with a big tittied Nord valkyrie.
 

Dreiko

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Sorry to interject but American Pie when you remove some of the stuff that's a bit iffy like secret webcams etc actually has an overall pretty positive message about caring for women and not just seeming them as things that exist for your own pleasure.

American Pie 1 has OZ realising he cares more about the girl beyond just sleeping with her after prom night and doesn't want to push her he just wants to be with her. Stifler learns nothing because Stifler is an asshole. Jim learns some girls very much do love sex. Finch learns sometimes sex just falls into your lap.

American Pie 2 has Jim realising there's more to life and love and relationships than just trying to get with the hottest / most conventionally sexy girl on a physical level and personality and attitude can be damn sexy too.

(I've not seen American Pie The wedding, The Reunion, The Book of Love or Girls Rule)

American Pie: Band camp is about learning to respect people and try to sincerely take an interest in things for reasons beyond sex.

American Pie: The Naked Mile is about how sex is more meaningful if you're in a loving relationship than just having sex to have sex.

American Pie: Beta House Rulez is about how to come back from a breakup and try to move on.

Like American Pie I get was sold as a sex comedy but it's really far more in a genre I'd call "The coming of age" films. There's plenty of them and many of them have similar kind of messages from Kevin and Perry Go Large to The Inbetweeners movie. The almost terrible irony of it is Sex Drive a film that was sort of meant to be a deconstruction of the genre actually uses roughly the same plot structure as many of the other films.
Yeah I was mainly thinking of the perception it has more so than the actual plot line. Out of those the most memorable one was Band Camp, which was actually just a funny movie that I like a lot.

For me coming of age stories can be done in two ways, and I heavily lean towards the more metaphorical ones, like in FLCL for example, but I can definitely see it being taken that way too.

I just think that for the most part in the other movies, especially the earlier ones, you really are encouraged to watch the film to see the hot exchange student masturbating through the webcam and the guy fucking the pie, and the lesson is kinda there as a fig-leaf cause it's kinda supposed to be there by our prudish norms. Like if this was a game it'd be something like Rance where the protag is an unapologetic warlord rapist and it would not have any qualms about it, they'd step in it full-footed.
 
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Zykon TheLich

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Yea. I thought so.

See, here's the thing; I'm not a kink shamer. I don't care if someone is cranking their hog to anything on LL (they do draw the line at kiddie diddling material at least), but don't pretend that the adult sex modding for Skyrim is limited only to a roll in the hay with a big tittied Nord valkyrie.
You see, this is why I like the Bethesda FPRPGs.

You can play vanilla. You can mod to make it more realistic, more of a challenge, add new items and adventures... You can mod the dragons to have Macho Man Randy Savage's head. Then you can mod it so you can fuck those dragons.

It's real grassroots, power to the people, stuff.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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So just realised I never really addressed the article in the first post.

Tae Kim the writer just doesn't seem to know much about gaming and the article comes off like some kind of attempted at almost an advertorial for the new Horizon game.

The best response I can give really to the article is this meme.

no female leads eh.png
 

Kwak

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So just realised I never really addressed the article in the first post.

Tae Kim the writer just doesn't seem to know much about gaming and the article comes off like some kind of attempted at almost an advertorial for the new Horizon game.

The best response I can give really to the article is this meme.

View attachment 5269
Oh my god! It's a woman! In a game! Sexism destroyed!
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Oh my god! It's a woman! In a game! Sexism destroyed!
When the authors specific argument includes

Denigrating portrayals of women are common in popular titles, but a hit Sony game offers a glimmer of hope that things are changing.
and

After Microsoft Corp. hosted a party five years ago with scantily clad female dancers on platforms, head of Xbox Phil Spencer was forced to apologize.
relevant because one of the journalists who wrote about how awful it was for Microsoft to do that, is now a convicted sex offender after being charged with 3 counts of rape.

Characters like Aloy remain too rare among mainstream games. As a video-game enthusiast, I find it uncomfortable playing leading titles like Tomb Raider, Genshin Impact or Bayonetta, all of which feature female characters in skimpy outfits.
The author things Bayonetta is a leading title despite it not doing well enough to get sequels without Nintendo stepping in to fund them. Also Genshin Impact, is that really some mainstream highly popular game with regular gamers? As for Tomb Raider, that was specifically rebooted with the studio now making it on about how much better and more progressive it's version would be so either he's super sensitive and merely her having boobs is too much for him or he's not actually aware of what modern Tomb Raider games are like and just heard it as a talking point among certain feminist critics circles about how problematic the older games were and just thought nothing had changed.

As for being rare, well not really as I pointed out.
 

Trunkage

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When the authors specific argument includes



and


relevant because one of the journalists who wrote about how awful it was for Microsoft to do that, is now a convicted sex offender after being charged with 3 counts of rape.


The author things Bayonetta is a leading title despite it not doing well enough to get sequels without Nintendo stepping in to fund them. Also Genshin Impact, is that really some mainstream highly popular game with regular gamers? As for Tomb Raider, that was specifically rebooted with the studio now making it on about how much better and more progressive it's version would be so either he's super sensitive and merely her having boobs is too much for him or he's not actually aware of what modern Tomb Raider games are like and just heard it as a talking point among certain feminist critics circles about how problematic the older games were and just thought nothing had changed.

As for being rare, well not really as I pointed out.
You pointed out less than .001% of games

And, as people have done previously in this thread, there are WAY more negative representations

You know what was really cool about Horizon? Sometimes you shot a bandit, there was a female yelp at being shot. I think a negative stereotype of men is that they're the ones being disposable henchmen. Horizon did it different.... but that doesn't wipe away the decades of men being treated that way. Nor is that stereotype magically non-existant in current games based on Hoizon.

Hell, I pointed this out to people and I got a comment to the tune of, "You want to shoot girls?"
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Hell, most of those games are *very new*, relatively speaking.

So when author Tae Kim says (paraphrased) "Aloy represents change for the better", he's not wrong

Also, you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel if you're bringing up Malice. Not enough non-sexy rep out there that you have to find a 5/10 development hell platformer from the xbox PS2?
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