Anti-Trump Witches trying to figure out which of them cast the spell to give Trump Covid-19

[Dwarvenhobble]

...half of white medical trainees think Black people have thicker skin or feel
less pain than white people.
This is now.

How we fail black patients in pain

An expert looks at how false notions and hidden biases fuel inadequate treatment of minorities’ pain.

www.aamc.org

Our science has a massive number of biases, a lot of which most people don't recognize. I can see the argument for starting the slate clean.

Which is being changed and likely a left over from the past ages.

Are you saying we throw out medical Science?

 

[Houseman]

...half of white medical trainees think Black people have thicker skin or feel
less pain than white people.
This is now.

How we fail black patients in pain

An expert looks at how false notions and hidden biases fuel inadequate treatment of minorities’ pain.

www.aamc.org

Do they graduate with these beliefs, or are these just the beliefs they have before they are taught the truth?

 

[Buyetyen]

And long before that medical science thought you could stop a person chocking by putting bread in each of their ears. Or after that there was blood letting etc. Science isn't perfect but it does and has evolved over time.

Then you don't also get to cover for its failings by saying, "Oh that wasn't 'hard' science, it doesn't count, lol."

Which is being changed and likely a left over from the past ages.

Are you saying we throw out medical Science?

No, I'm pretty sure they're just correcting your incorrect claims.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Then you don't also get to cover for its failings by saying, "Oh that wasn't 'hard' science, it doesn't count, lol."



No, I'm pretty sure they're just correcting your incorrect claims.

No I get to say it was old stuff likely from a past era that's now being corrected.

Also are you trying to say I was saying Black people feel less pain and such claims were from me? Cause it's pretty clear I wasn't the one saying that unless you think I'm teaching medical students lol

 

[lil devils x]

No I get to say it was old stuff likely from a past era that's now being corrected.

Also are you trying to say I was saying Black people feel less pain and such claims were from me? Cause it's pretty clear I wasn't the one saying that unless you think I'm teaching medical students lol

We just acknowledged it existed at all, we are a LONG way from actually correcting it.

 

[lil devils x]

Do they graduate with these beliefs, or are these just the beliefs they have before they are taught the truth?

They graduate with these beliefs and are actively practicing and even knowing the truth at this point isn't having much of an impact of actually changing it. We are a very long way from actually changing it. Even black Physicians seem to think their black patients are in les pain and are not treating their patents equally, so we haven't even begun to adequately address this is any way. For the most part, nothing is being done at all. We have no one enforcing it to make sure it is corrected, so it doesn't.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

We just acknowledged it existed at all, we are a LONG way from actually correcting it.

Wasn't it also like 1 course or text book it was in not widespread?

 

[happyninja42]

They graduate with these beliefs and are actively practicing and even knowing the truth at this point isn't having much of an impact of actually changing it. We are a very long way from actually changing it. Even black Physicians seem to think their black patients are in les pain and are not treating their patents equally, so we haven't even begun to adequately address this is any way. For the most part, nothing is being done at all. We have no one enforcing it to make sure it is corrected, so it doesn't.

I wonder how much of this, might be impacted by macho masculinity culture in the black community. Like, I've lost count of the number of veterans, of all ethnicities, that refuse to report injuries, and seek treatment, because the military culture (especially in previous generations, but still present today), actively discourage showing weakness and reporting injuries. It's so much so, that I can do a "if I had a dollar for every time I've heard" line with most clients calling in, describing what I've heard other vets say. And the number of times, they, or their family member remarks "wow, I've heard him/I've say that for years" is frankly depressing.

So it wouldn't surprise me, since pain measurement is mostly a factor of just having the patient report it to the data collector, I would be curious to know how much is them just "trying to be tough." Not saying it's the only factor in this, but it wouldn't surprise me to find it's a not insignificant factor in the final deal.

 

[lil devils x]

Wasn't it also like 1 course or text book it was in not widespread?

It wasn't even being taught at all when I was in school..
The studies are very recent, so many in medicine are not even aware of their unconscious bias at all.

Racial bias weakens our ability to feel someone else’s pain

Racial bias weakens our ability to feel someone else’s pain

www.discovermagazine.com

Racial bias in pain assessment and treatment recommendations, and false beliefs about biological differences between blacks and whites

The present work examines beliefs associated with racial bias in pain management, a critical health care domain with well-documented racial disparities. Specifically, this work reveals that a substantial number of white laypeople and medical students ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Black Kids Get Less Pain Medication Than White Kids in ER

Black children with acute appendicitis are less likely than white children to get painkillers in the emergency room, researchers found.

www.nbcnews.com

So at this point nothing is really even being done at all about unconscious bias in medicine tbh.
They felt more empathy for the purple hand than the black hand. I remember reading a while back they even felt more empathy for the robot than a black human hand. It is seriously that messed up tbh.

 

[lil devils x]

I wonder how much of this, might be impacted by macho masculinity culture in the black community. Like, I've lost count of the number of veterans, of all ethnicities, that refuse to report injuries, and seek treatment, because the military culture (especially in previous generations, but still present today), actively discourage showing weakness and reporting injuries. It's so much so, that I can do a "if I had a dollar for every time I've heard" line with most clients calling in, describing what I've heard other vets say. And the number of times, they, or their family member remarks "wow, I've heard him/I've say that for years" is frankly depressing.

So it wouldn't surprise me, since pain measurement is mostly a factor of just having the patient report it to the data collector, I would be curious to know how much is them just "trying to be tough." Not saying it's the only factor in this, but it wouldn't surprise me to find it's a not insignificant factor in the final deal.

I don't think that is it, as this is across all races towards blacks, both male and female, not just in the back community, but more of racist social conditioning by society in general.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

It wasn't even being taught at all when I was in school..
The studies are very recent, so many in medicine are not even aware of their unconscious bias at all.

Racial bias weakens our ability to feel someone else’s pain

Racial bias weakens our ability to feel someone else’s pain

www.discovermagazine.com

Racial bias in pain assessment and treatment recommendations, and false beliefs about biological differences between blacks and whites

The present work examines beliefs associated with racial bias in pain management, a critical health care domain with well-documented racial disparities. Specifically, this work reveals that a substantial number of white laypeople and medical students ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Black Kids Get Less Pain Medication Than White Kids in ER

Black children with acute appendicitis are less likely than white children to get painkillers in the emergency room, researchers found.

www.nbcnews.com

So at this point nothing is really even being done at all about unconscious bias in medicine tbh.
They felt more empathy for the purple hand than the black hand. I remember reading a while back they even felt more empathy for the robot than a black human hand. It is seriously that messed up tbh.

Well it's presumably come from somewhere. I think when the story first broke on twitter it was claimed to have come from some weird medical text book or something a first.

 

[lil devils x]

Well it's presumably come from somewhere. I think when the story first broke on twitter it was claimed to have come from some weird medical text book or something a first.

There are all sorts of vintage " quakery" medical manuscripts, and devices so there really is no telling.

Just google " vintage medical quackery" and you will see some very scary things..

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

There are all sorts of vintage " quakery" medical manuscripts, and devices so there really is no telling.

Just google " vintage medical quackery" and you will see some very scary things..

well yes I did mention some earlier in this thread actually lol

 

[Buyetyen]

No I get to say it was old stuff likely from a past era that's now being corrected.

Also are you trying to say I was saying Black people feel less pain and such claims were from me? Cause it's pretty clear I wasn't the one saying that unless you think I'm teaching medical students lol

No, you're trying to have it both ways, claiming science is fallible while making excuses for its failures and why those don't count. And no, I was saying that you're a walking Dunning-Krueger.

 

[lil devils x]

well yes I did mention some earlier in this thread actually lol

The Victorian Era was especially messed up tbh.
This like the jugum penis and other anti masturbation devices are horrifying tbh. It is amazing people survived these idiots at all..

 

[Kae]

Are witches Antifa? Are Antifa witches? I really feel we’re coming dangerously close to literal witch trials and I’m about it.

I wanna be an Antifa witch now, I need to get myself a hat and a Spellbook.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

No, you're trying to have it both ways, claiming science is fallible while making excuses for its failures and why those don't count.

Ok so show me evidence that Witches spells gave Trump Covid-19.
That's what this thread is about ultimately remember.
The fact it's now because about the validity of Science itself kind of is starting to prove the off hand comment I made about the idea of "the party of reason" no longer being what it once was.

Science is fallible but again it was likely stuff that was a hang over from previous generations or a small area it comes from which just never got review. A few years ago like 30% of all psychology papers ever published were deemed to not be replica-able or something like that it was a huge issues in the field which it's still somewhat addressing now because of the historic research that people just hadn't challenge until recently. That it does get challenge and can be challenged is why Science is more reliable that mysticism etc. It doesn't have to be accepted. Don't think it's true? Challenge it and if your evidence is good enough you change it.

And no, I was saying that you're a walking Dunning-Krueger.

No you not understanding what I said doesn't mean it's not relevant. The fault for that though is ultimately on me for not pitching it right.

The Victorian Era was especially messed up tbh.
This like the jugum penis and other anti masturbation devices are horrifying tbh. It is amazing people survived these idiots at all..

I didn't know about the jugum penis but yeh in highschool I studied some medical history and yeh it was pretty horrifying. Hell so were the surgeries like the surgeon who infamously got a 300% mortality rate from one operation.

 

[Hawki]

I can see the argument for starting the slate clean.

Okay, then let's play the game.

Let's go back to the original example. Let's wipe the slate clean with the Theory of Gravity. While the theory is being re-developed, we'll have to cancel pretty much all space travel for starters. Probably shut down our satellites as well. Probably not too long, since I haven't come across any serious counter-theory to gravity, but what do I know?

If you want to extend this to medicine? Okay. Let's stop researching for a Covid vaccine and rebuild all medical science from the ground up. Maybe we'll come to the same conclusions, maybe the anti-vaxxers will be justified. I mean, I've operated under the assumption that medical science has made the world better overall (it's nice ot live in a world without smallpox and polio for instance) but what do I know?

I'd like to remind you that there's actually historical precedent for this. From the 9th to 11th centuries, the Arab world was in a scientific golden age. However, in the 11th century, it petered out, as an argument formed along the lines of "trying to know God is blasphemy." Cut forward a thousand years, and how the mighty have fallen. I don't feel self-rightous saying that, the series of events I described above is a tragedy.

It's kind of weird being back here, because in the 2000s, I was very aware of the push for intelligent design, to the point that it was even mandated in my Earth Science course at secondary school - the teacher hated it, the students hated it, and we got around it by replacing "God" with indigenous mythology. Right now though, it's more post-modernism - the idea that nothing can be objectively true, that everyone has their own truth, and that said truth will stem from their identity.

And look, I don't mind established scientific theories being challenged. I mentioned on this forum awhile back that in the library, I talked with someone who was trying to prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity wrong. The conversations I had were quite interesting, and while I'm dubious of proving ToR wrong, I think it's great that someone can challenge the theory, since any theory should be falsifiable. But nowhere in the conversation was the suggestion that all of science be dismantled and built from the ground up.

 

[Satinavian]

Our science has a massive number of biases, a lot of which most people don't recognize. I can see the argument for starting the slate clean.

We wouldn't even know about this bias without using the scientific method to find it.

Mathematics is a good example. Mathematics is an entirely consistent system which is (or can make a reasonable claim to be) universal. Furthermore, if we know the universals, if we know the rules of mathematics, then we can start to manipulate mathematics to our own ends.

That is not how math works. Math itself has proven the Limits of math. Just look up Gödels theorems.

But is not as if philosophers writing about math or science tend to actually understand a thing about it.

But universal truth implies something more than just "it works". Any believer in magic or miracles can claim that it works (sometimes). We have staked our entire civilization on this idea of universal truths, and on the ability of science to produce them, and we need to know for sure that they are actually universal.

So how do we know something for sure?

Oh, right..

And why is that a crisis ? Science itself does not need to actually find universal truths or know that they are. While the empirical methods assumes such rules exist, it only promises to gradually get nearer to them. This is why older models and theories regularly gets replaced and no one bats an eye. Scientists don't assume that anything they know about nature are universal truths. Just that it is the closest approximation humanity has found so far and that if someone thinks differently, he is free to prove it and write some papers about it.

Only philosophers need a universal truth and try to make a crisis out of it. Honestly, modern philosophy is becoming incredibly useless. More and more topics of any practical relevance split up and become their own field with their own methods. And what is left is just people talking to each other about stuff they don't understand without the rest of the world taking notice.

On an everyday level, that doesn't really mean much. But it does mean that we should be mindful of the limitations of scientific knowledge, and skeptical of the way "science" is used in a political or aesthetic context, because the colloquial use of science is often completely divorced from any of the things which make science useful. Science can be the maths that takes you to the moon, but it can also be purely an aesthetic convention. It can be a kind of magic dust you can sprinkle onto any statement to make it sound truthful, and that is potentially very dangerous.

Of course we should be aware of the limitation of science. Or of people misrepresenting it.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Okay, then let's play the game.

Let's go back to the original example. Let's wipe the slate clean with the Theory of Gravity. While the theory is being re-developed, we'll have to cancel pretty much all space travel for starters. Probably shut down our satellites as well. Probably not too long, since I haven't come across any serious counter-theory to gravity, but what do I know?

If you want to extend this to medicine? Okay. Let's stop researching for a Covid vaccine and rebuild all medical science from the ground up. Maybe we'll come to the same conclusions, maybe the anti-vaxxers will be justified. I mean, I've operated under the assumption that medical science has made the world better overall (it's nice ot live in a world without smallpox and polio for instance) but what do I know?

I'd like to remind you that there's actually historical precedent for this. From the 9th to 11th centuries, the Arab world was in a scientific golden age. However, in the 11th century, it petered out, as an argument formed along the lines of "trying to know God is blasphemy." Cut forward a thousand years, and how the mighty have fallen. I don't feel self-rightous saying that, the series of events I described above is a tragedy.

It's kind of weird being back here, because in the 2000s, I was very aware of the push for intelligent design, to the point that it was even mandated in my Earth Science course at secondary school - the teacher hated it, the students hated it, and we got around it by replacing "God" with indigenous mythology. Right now though, it's more post-modernism - the idea that nothing can be objectively true, that everyone has their own truth, and that said truth will stem from their identity.

And look, I don't mind established scientific theories being challenged. I mentioned on this forum awhile back that in the library, I talked with someone who was trying to prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity wrong. The conversations I had were quite interesting, and while I'm dubious of proving ToR wrong, I think it's great that someone can challenge the theory, since any theory should be falsifiable. But nowhere in the conversation was the suggestion that all of science be dismantled and built from the ground up.

I said I could see the argument, not that I agreed with it.
Same way as I'm pretty likely to wipe a hard drive instead of fix a critical software issue. Depends on your perspective.