App Store Pulling Games That Include the Confederate Flag - UPDATE

FEichinger

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Aug 7, 2011
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Tanklover said:
Individuals in the US are free to have their flags and wave it on their porches, even start making and selling their own flags since now they can't buy them at walmart and the like. Seems to me like they are defending a symbol for all the wrong reasons and can't even imagine how anyone might be offended by that flag when in their minds its all well and good, never bother to look at the other side of things. Guess that's what happens when your side has never been the target of so much discrimination for so long.
Oh, please. What this is, is bullying. "You're legally free to do what you want, but if you do we'll throw a tantrum until you stop!" No, I don't have a hard time seeing how someone could be offended by the flag. I do have a hard time seeing why offence should somehow be relevant regarding a flag that holds significant historical value. Be that as a reminder of the Civil War, or as a reminder of the KKK's atrocities. Or even as a reminder of the fact that the Democrats are now fighting so valiantly to remove their rebellious parts of history from the records.

There is fundamentally no distinction anymore between an omnipresent public outrage mob imposing censorship and the government doing so. Frankly, I'd argue the former is worse, because the government is at least somewhat legally bound not to ruin someone's life on a whim.
 

Xan Krieger

Completely insane
Feb 11, 2009
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Neverhoodian said:
Speaking as a History major, stuff like this pisses me off. Yes it's tasteless and offensive to see racist jackasses flying Confederate flags around,[footnote]Though I won't force them to take them down from private property. They have a First Amendment right to broadcast to the world that they're assholes if they want.[/footnote] but these games have nothing to do with that. It's when people start whitewashing history like this that I draw the line.

History defines us. It helps us understand the kind of people we are and how we got here. Ideally, history can help us avoid the pitfalls of the past; therefore, it is absolutely essential that every aspect of history be explored, no matter how offensive or reprehensible parts of it may be. We owe it to ourselves and future generations.

In my eyes, those that try to sweep such painful episodes under the rug like this are little better than the perpetrators of such acts.
What about those of us who fly that flag who aren't racist? I think most people who fly the flag aren't racist, they just love the south because it beats the crap out of living up north.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Man, the tone of this forum has changed. People used to be all "if you don't like Apple's policies, don't buy from them."

SlumlordThanatos said:
It would be one thing to not accept new apps that use the Confederate flag, but this is borderline censorship, especially if the examples are used in a historical context.
Man, I don't know what to tell you. Apple has set content restrictions on its store since they had a store.

Tanis said:
People should be allowed, as free citizen, to fly whatever flag they want.
Nazi, Rainbow, Confederate, Christian Flag, etc.
They should be allowed to fly any flag they want. They are not allowed, however, to require Apple to provide them a venue.

Adam Jensen said:
They have the right to do it and I do think that confederate flag lovers are all racists, but the context is of the utmost importance. We shouldn't just suspend critical thinking and act like zombies because something is offensive in certain scenarios.
This is Apple. That's exactly what they do.

Blazing Hero said:
This stuff is scary, how can you NOT have the confederate flag in a civil war game?!
The popularity of this flag has little to do with its wartime use, given that the flag in question was not used as-is by the Confederacy. The flag in question is one that was used by one Virginian army or some such, and resurrected by the KKK and Dixiecrats in opposition to slavery. The version that would be more historically accurate, for the record, is the "White Man's Field." Let's see people use that.

Or, you know, you could go with the Stars and Bars.

FEichinger said:
I want everyone who jumps to calling for things like burning the flag to carefully consider that. Banning historic symbolism is not something you just do because you feel like it.
Fortunately, that has nothing to do with this story. Even if you support flag burning, that doesn't mean Apple is required to host a flag burning app.

But really, who specifically is calling for an outright ban on the Confederate flag?
 

WarpedLord

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Mar 11, 2009
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Tanis said:
This is over the line.

I think we need to take the confed's flags down from federal/government building and burn them...BUT!

Having one in a HISTORICALLY BASED GAME is a completely different story.

People should be allowed, as free citizen, to fly whatever flag they want.
Nazi, Rainbow, Confederate, Christian Flag, etc.

It's when they're flown on PUBLIC property that piss me off.
I was going to post something intelligent, but then you went ahead and said everything I was thinking.

Damn you and your reason and logic! :)
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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thebobmaster said:
Privately owned company enacts policy=MURICA!
Having just done a forum search on Apple's policies (Seriously, does this site only search back to 2013?), it seems the only times this isn't an issue is when something racism or Nazi related comes up. Then it's censorship. Kind of makes you wonder.

LucBen999 said:
you'd still have to admit that merely protecting your fee fees is not worth the loss of eliminating games using the flag in a historical context... right?
Weird, it looks like the ones having their "fee fees" hurt here are the "Confederate" flag lovers and the usual people who scream censorship only when it suits them.

MarsAtlas said:
Stupid, but Apple has set a precedent in being stupid and doing everything possible toavoid stepping on a twig, so I can't really say I'm surprised nor disappointed. Hopefully this hasn't effected any other game retailers. Any word on Google Play or Microsoft's app storefront doing anything similarly idiotic?
Are you kidding? Apple's policies have historically routinely brought on shitstorms.

MarsAtlas said:
Historical textbooks for school in particular are more stuck on stuff like whether or not they should include Thomas Jefferson, the third president of the United States who managed the Lousiana Purchase and led us into our first war as an established nation [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html], or really just about anything else that favours a conservative-revisionist view of history. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2014/09/12/proposed-texas-textbooks-are-inaccurate-biased-and-politicized-new-report-finds/] Since history textbooks in the US are having a hard time covering that slavery with any depth, I doubt they're going to do something like remove confederate imagery from textbooks.
I'd also point out that Texas wanted Moses in their history books. A guy even Jewish scholars don't necessarily accept as a factual historical figure. They're ejecting Founding Fathers they find too liberal, but want to include their Bible fanfic as historical fact pertaining to the genesis of the United States.

Also, the history books angle is a slippery slope argument and should be treated both as one and as an appeal to emotion, because it is. Going from not selling games in Apple's store to not allowing it in history books is on par with saying that people will want to marry trees if gays are allowed to marriage.

Speaking of which, it's been over a decade since Mass allowed gay marriage, and I haven't been invited to so much as a civil arborist ceremony.

valium said:
the confederate flag is not inherently racist or pro-slavery, as slavery was only PART of why the south wanted to secede from the rest of the union.
The KKK and Dixiecrats opposing integration, however, is the total reason it's part of modern consciousness.

Though seriously, it'd be funny seeing people fly the "White Man's Field" and argue it was about Southern pride and not racism.
 

Mikeybb

Nunc est Durandum
Aug 19, 2014
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Archon said:
Elijin said:
Does this mean Dukes of Hazard is now contraband?

Because.....pffffffffffffffffffffffft, hah!
Actually, Warner Brothers has announced they will no longer sell Dukes of Hazzard material.
Really?

I can appreciate the urge to be considerate towards people after a tragic event, but historical wargames and a bit of classic tv (with a still memorable, catchy theme tune) seem like an odd thing to rail against.
Granted, the significance of the flag itself and what it represents to some is drastically different to others, but all the same this doesn't feel right.
That may just be the historical wargamer in me taking umbrage though.

I'm pretty sure targeting this nutters choice of flag is low hanging fruit anyway.
It's not like he used a flag for his crime.
Blaming gun availability, parenting and social environment would be a lot trickier to be seen as demonstrably responding to.
A bit of cloth and a symbol though...
That's something you can shake your fist at and ban, for all the good it'll do.


It's like burning a figure in effigy in a way.
You can't ban the horrible act, but you can at least ban something tangentially related to it.
Thank god it didn't come out he feasted exclusively on reese's pieces.
I love those damn things.

I suppose I do sympathize with the people making these bans though, to an extent.
Sometimes in this very outrage driven, loose global society of the internet it's better to be seen as one of the people doing something in response to a tragedy than to be seen as the one who doesn't.
Even if that something is ultimately trivial and will have no appreciable effect on the true root of the problem.
 

Darks63

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Mar 8, 2010
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Oh look apple being heavy handed and overly controlling in the I-store so business as usual huh?

On a related note I wish I had some rebel flags to sell since you could sell them at a pretty good rate atm.
 

JMac85

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Nov 1, 2007
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More self-righteous moral crusading. It's the same kind of bullshit everyone used to laugh at when outraged Christians screamed that Harry Potter should be banned because it "promotes witchcraft" or Pokemon because it "promotes gambling".

But now the screaming is coming from the left side of the room instead of the right, so we're all expected to just go with it or be shunned as a bigot or misogynist. To me, it was never a left vs right thing, I opposed the likes of Jerry Fallwell and Jack Thompson because they were authoritarian assholes who wanted to dictate their personal views on popular culture, not because they were conservatives. The new breed of "moral majority" spout 'progressive' platitudes when in reality they are the same kind of authoritarian assholes as Fallwell and Thompson.
 

Char-Nobyl

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This bothers me for two reasons.

The first is just from a historical and logical perspective. These games were about the Civil War. Unless they were some kind of neo-Confederate revisionist history type thing that glorified the Confederacy, I see literally no way that Apple's explanation of, "We are writing to notify you that your app has been removed from the App Store because it includes images of the confederate flag used in offensive and mean-spirited ways," could be valid.

The second is a result of the first: because I have literally no idea why Apple could logically believe the explanation that they gave, I can only believe that this is a cynical, tasteless attempt to get good PR in the wake of a tragedy.

"Look over here!" they cry at the shocked public and grieving families, "We're deleting games from our App store because of how much we care about you!"
 

Hero in a half shell

It's not easy being green
Dec 30, 2009
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Elijin said:
Does this mean Dukes of Hazard is now contraband?

Because.....pffffffffffffffffffffffft, hah!
Bo an' Luke have a lot to answer for I tell you!

Who would have thought that old Boss Hog would run Apple after Stevie Jobs?

"Rosco you gotta ged those dang flags offa' that apptunes store or them fancy-pants Washinton men'll be knockin' at our door"

"that's a ten-four boss. I'll get it sorted right now an' have those dook boys squealing like pigs Geehah."
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
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gigastar said:
Someone bring me up to speed here, whats all this moral outrage about flags now?

And why is it still not directed at the lack of gun control?

AzrealMaximillion said:
Methinks Historical games should be left alone in this case. Lest we start acting like Germany with the Nazi Flag in video games.
Thats the Swastika youre thinking about.
What he's saying is that Germany bans the Swatstika in all contexts even going so far as to want Indiana Jones games censored, and the US seems to be heading in a similar direction.


The long and the short of the situation is 9 black people were killed in a church. The likely suspect is a guy named Dylann Road who is a kid who was a vocal white supremacist and did things like wear confederate symbology, burn the US flag, and write racist manifestos on his website. Liberals being liberals they decided that this was a great time to run around pressuring everyone to stop flying the confederate flag regardless of it's context. The confederate flag has a lot of symbolism behind it for different people, but since one of the issues of The American Civil War was slavery liberals have latched onto that side of things exclusively, acting like that is what it stands for and nothing else. The campaign has involved political pressure on states, and attacks against landmarks commemorating the war and even grave sites of slain Confederate veterans with demands that the stones be removed and replaced with something more politically correct if they have Confederate markings.

On the media front, we have had witch hunts against Confederate flag merchandise due to left wing pressure, and rather than fighting for free speech we now have companies like Warner Brothers editing shows like "The Dukes Of Hazzard" to remove all the confederate flags (like the ones on the car) and bleep out any mention of "The General Lee" which is the name of that particular souped up car. Allegedly these changes will be made to where the show is still shown in syndication and all DVD collections of the show from now on will have the edits.

Basically it's a giant power grab/political move using a tragic set of events as the catalyst. Poor education on The American Civil War is also a factor.

To put things into perspective The Civil War was nasty, and even as they did terrible things to The South, The North wasn't exactly disrespectful to the flag or the overall cause it represented. General Robert E. Lee was treated with great respect even after the end of the war, as were a number of other confederate leaders which is why their names are all over monuments, buildings, etc. The war was fought largely over economics, slavery is the reason listed by the winners to justify their actions, but it really wasn't the focus of the war, especially seeing as slavery likely would have ended without the war due to the way politics were moving anyway. The war was largely about how The South produced most of the raw materials used for manufacturing, and wanted top dollar for it's goods, The North which was far more industrialized was unhappy with what they had to pay and the amount of resources they were getting, and it was also holding back international trade due to the US not being able to produce at the rate the government wanted to see. For sure The South wasn't entirely blameless in the equasion, because the people down there would rather let their stuff rot unsold (and did) than lower the prices. A lot can be said back and forth but the bottom line is that like most of history it was not a black and white conflict, and that's why the symbolism has continued on throughout the years. The Confederate Flag oftentimes means something entirely different to people in The South from people in The North nowadays, who don't even bother to stop and think that there are reasons why even after victory the North hadn't eradicated it.

As a general rule I don't object to a dialogue on the subject, as believe it or not I'm not a fan (I live the first 39 years of my life in Connecticut, while I have live in Arizona for a few months now I'm about as Yankee as you can get). I for example think the states should consider whether they want to fly that flag in government buildings, not because of the slavery association, but because you know... it's a sign of rebellion against the union your supposed to now be a part of. That said it's something that should be up to the people of the states to decide themselves. When it comes to historical context, in my opinion people today should not be defiling graves and monuments placed long before they were born, especially when it comes to grave sites. If someone died a Confederate Soldier and decided they wanted to be remembered that way, you have no right to defile their grave stone.

Sadly we haven't seen any effective counter-rallies, which is why we see businesses overreacting, but I also think it's pretty bloody ridiculous to say remove confederate symbolism from historical war games and ban games that don't do so. Or to retroactively censor old TV shows. "The Dukes Of Hazzard" for example was about a couple of Good 'Ol Boys with a souped up car (one was an Ex-Marine, the other a former NASCAR driver) largely running afoul of the local law and power base, largely involving schemes by a local politician called "Boss Hogg" to get ahold of their family land which is quite valuable. In the scope of the show the symbolism is sort of that they are rebelling against the corrupt authorities down there, since they are almost constantly getting into car chases with the police and such. You can't even argue the guys flying the Confederate flag are racist since one of the recurring gags is how the Sheriff in the next county is a black dude who doesn't like taking any crap from people over the Hazzard county line, but at least has some mutual respect for the Duke Boys, so a lot of the times they wind up fleeing over the line and have that guy deal with whatever group of Rednecks they riled up, or back off Hazzard county law enforcement. It's a weird show, that was one of a kind and hasn't aged all that well, but it achieved a cult fan base (I used to really like it when I was a kid). That's right up there with Germany getting upset because the Nazis chasing Indiana Jones fly a Swatstika, contextually there is nothing offensive about it. Yet according to some things I was reading yesterday, not only is Apple at it, but so is Warner Brothers. Strangely one of the few hold outs is the guy who played Cooter in "Dukes Of Hazzard" (one of their buddies in the show) who opened a chain of real world stores based off of his fame that actually became fairly successful, he's made a point about how all of his "Cooter's General Store" locations will continue to sell all of the same southern and fan-related merchandise they always have, including displays of the Confederate flag, though I guess the only reason he was even asked was because of the show, which due to it's cult classic status has been getting some attention for this, although I notice the media hasn't wanted to say that much about it because I like to think even liberals realize editing "The Dukes Of Hazzard" is kind of stupid.

That said I imagine from now on all of the game producers who want to deal with The Civil War will have to replace the Confederates with renegade Circus Clowns and actual history will probably soon follow to protect people's minds and avoid offending anyone. In a generation or three the US will be an even bigger laughing stock when the indoctrinated go around talking about "The Great Clown Wars" and the new sign of racism will be wearing a giant red honkable nose. :)
 

Tanklover

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Nov 10, 2013
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Lunncal said:
Tanklover said:
People are all about free market and the like but the moment the market doesn't agree with them they start complaining, Apple is free to ban or sell whatever they want, and you're free to go somewhere else to buy it. Whether it's wrong for them to ban X or Y that is subjective and non important.

I'm not from the US or have ever lived there, BUT from what I know this flag has been used by groups such as KKK to represent themselves, and it was used by the side of a war that wanted to keep having slaves, SO, with that in mind, I could see how african americans will feel it's wrong for people to wave these flags around specially in public government buildings. As for the games that show the flag etc, I don't see a problem about historic games (not those glorifying the flag or its racists background) showing the flag specially if its for historical accuracy. But you know, someone will make some sort of website where you can buy all this shit and install it in your phone, that's the way thinks should work imo.

And for the people saying this is all a "knee jerk" reaction, I wonder how they want people to react and go about making things better once it becomes glaringly obvious it is. In Australia it seems like they banned guns after there was a really terrible shooting and they said they had enough, should they NOT have reacted to it? would that have pleased the "knee jerk" alarmists. And let's not forget that certain group of angry internet idiots got REALLY mad REALLY quickly about certain articles on the internet and in mass requested a sponsor to withdraw backing from a certain website, that sounds pretty knee jerky to me as well, yet it's not wrong when the other side does it.?

Individuals in the US are free to have their flags and wave it on their porches, even start making and selling their own flags since now they can't buy them at walmart and the like. Seems to me like they are defending a symbol for all the wrong reasons and can't even imagine how anyone might be offended by that flag when in their minds its all well and good, never bother to look at the other side of things. Guess that's what happens when your side has never been the target of so much discrimination for so long.
Except that in the case of apps it isn't a free market at all. Apple totally controls the distribution of apps on Apple devices (aka the vast majority of all mobile apps sold), and Apple and Google together control the entirety of mobile app distribution for all practical purposes. There is no free market, just monopolization by two huge mega corporations. The free market solution would be to legally forbid Apple and Google from restricting and controlling the sales of apps on their stores, so that the apps could compete with one another in an actual free market.

Free markets need to be carefully cultivated and protected by law, otherwise you just end up with monopolies abusing their powers at the detriment of consumers, which is exactly what has happened here.

OT: This sickens me to my very core. Hiding aspects of history deemed distasteful is the worst, most morally bankrupt way to deal with this issue possible, and all because they can't be bothered to deal with any potential complaint against them. To me, this puts Apple in the same category as holocaust deniers, my opinion of that company literally couldn't get any lower after hearing this.
Lol Apple = holocaust deniers, they aren't keeping people from looking up stuff on their phones or blocking any reference to the conf flag on the internet, same for google, if they were "holocaust deniers" they would block any result from their searches that references it. They simply do not want something that is considered shameful and racists to be associated with their brand, doesn't sound like they are denying or hiding anything. Or is Walmart also in the same group as Apple since they don't let you buy anything with the flag on it from their stores anymore?. Seems like A LOT of companies are taking similar action, but you're singling out Apple, just picking whoever you like the least?. The funny thing is, is that as "disgusted" as you or other people are, you won't stop using their products, both google and apple are taking the same stance on this issue and I doubt anyone will stop using their smartphones because of this. People are such hypocrites, go and buy a windowsphone or one of the many alternative smartphones with other non android/ios OS's and I might just buy that you're REALLY disgusted and sickened by their attitude.

Also I guess you're right, in this case for the whole free market thing is tough, for one apple is pretty closed about their system and what is allowed in their appstore so you can't create new apps with the content they are banning or offer it anywhere else since it wouldn't work either unless you jailbreak your phone, and then google isn't exactly better even if it's easier to publish stuff on the google appstore. In the case of big companies such as these the only solution would be to stop using their products, but let's face it, no one cares that much about this to stop using their iphone over it.
 

llubtoille

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Apr 12, 2010
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Now we just need the public libraries to go through their books and burn away all mention of the word.
Might as well do the word 'Nazi' while they're at it, I'm sure that word's offended enough people over the years too. Soon we shall have history scrubbed clean ^.^
 

Weaver

Overcaffeinated
Apr 28, 2008
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I'm sure the flag's removal from historical video games will stop the flag from shooting people in the future.
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
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OK? Seriously?

I can just about understand banning that flag on random out of context merchandise.
But banning it even in it's own historical context? Come on now!? What the hell!?

Nothing good ever comes from trying to whitewash or erase bits of history...
Ugh. What is going on these days!?
 

mxfox408

Pee Eye Em Pee Daddy
Apr 4, 2010
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This confederate flag issue is really becoming stupid, now apple removes civil war games because it has the confederate flag and is considered offensive? Wow you cannot re-write history. Stupid political correctness.
 

Don Incognito

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Feb 6, 2013
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Therumancer said:
What he's saying is that Germany bans the Swatstika in all contexts even going so far as to want Indiana Jones games censored, and the US seems to be heading in a similar direction......


On the media front, we have had witch hunts against Confederate flag merchandise due to left wing pressure, and rather than fighting for free speech we now have companies like Warner Brothers editing shows like "The Dukes Of Hazzard" to remove all the confederate flags (like the ones on the car) and bleep out any mention of "The General Lee" which is the name of that particular souped up car. Allegedly these changes will be made to where the show is still shown in syndication and all DVD collections of the show from now on will have the edits......

Okay, look. You and I may find this a bit silly, but let's pump the brakes a bit.

The swastika is BANNED in Germany. Illegal. NO ONE is trying to do the same to the Confederate Battle Flag. "Free speech" does not enter into the equation at all. No one is having their First Amendment rants trampled here.