Are adult Japanese gamers stigmatized?

Yvl9921

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Apr 4, 2009
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I've been doing research for a term paper on the declining sales of Japanese games, and I just bumped into an article that seems rather incredible to me.

http://gametheoryonline.com/2010/10/18/japanese-video-games-industry-dying/

This was not what I was expecting to find, but it would explain EVERYTHING about why the Japanese game industry is in its current state. Can any escapists vouch for whether this "game bakkari" stigma is a major thing? Preferably with more reliable sources? And to everyone else, how do you feel about this article and the state of Japanese gaming in general?
 

krazykidd

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Mar 22, 2008
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It's just dying in the west. They are still going strong in japan . That's what matters . I'm pretty sure CoD doesn't sell as well over there as they do over here . It's a matter of percpectictive. If it was REALLY dying , they would just stop shiping games over here wouldn't they . That would save them a lot of money .

Off-topic . Anyone knows , whats the most popular genre of game that they play in russia? I mean i'm pretty sure it's not american military shooters since they are ALWAYS the bad guy.
 

CAPTCHA

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krazykidd said:
Off-topic . Anyone knows , whats the most popular genre of game that they play in russia? I mean i'm pretty sure it's not american military shooters since they are ALWAYS the bad guy.
Tetris :)



[sub]words for the word god[/sub]
 

Yvl9921

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krazykidd said:
If it was REALLY dying , they would just stop shiping games over here wouldn't they . That would save them a lot of money .
That's exactly what they've been doing, actually. Look at the Operation Rainfall incident, for an example. Three critically acclaimed JRPGs with outstanding pedigrees were announced to be released in Japan only until the fans fought to bring them to the rest of the world.

GobbieGoldchain said:
No wonder why I haven't seen Suikoden VI on a console yet.
You haven't seen a Suikoden VI because Konami is a disorganized mess of a company.
 

DoPo

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krazykidd said:
Off-topic . Anyone knows , whats the most popular genre of game that they play in russia? I mean i'm pretty sure it's not american military shooters since they are ALWAYS the bad guy.
I actually don't know. I always assumed they went with whatever everybody went. I've seen games on Steam that are translated in Russian. FPSes even. HL2 for sure but I've seen others, too (can't think of any, though).
 

krazykidd

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Yvl9921 said:
krazykidd said:
If it was REALLY dying , they would just stop shiping games over here wouldn't they . That would save them a lot of money .
That's exactly what they've been doing, actually. Look at the Operation Rainfall incident, for an example. Three critically acclaimed JRPGs with outstanding pedigrees were announced to be released in Japan only until the fans fought to bring them to the rest of the world.
Oh yeah i know that. But thats not a isolated case , japan has always refused to send over games that posed too high a risk of jot selling well over here . Remember Mother 3? People are still bitter about that . I mean cut us off as a whole . If they were really losing that much money over here ( what with shipping and translating and all that jazz) why not just makes games for japan from japan? Since they sell well over there , and they would save a lot of money and make bigger profits ( assuming they lose money because NA don't buy them).
 

WoW Killer

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krazykidd said:
Oh yeah i know that. But thats not a isolated case , japan has always refused to send over games that posed too high a risk of jot selling well over here . Remember Mother 3? People are still bitter about that . I mean cut us off as a whole . If they were really losing that much money over here ( what with shipping and translating and all that jazz) why not just makes games for japan from japan? Since they sell well over there , and they would save a lot of money and make bigger profits ( assuming they lose money because NA don't buy them).
This has me thinking. How much does it really cost to translate a game? I mean there are very few costs otherwise. Games have very high initial development costs, but once you have that first copy the costs are negligible; CDs cost pennies to print, digital distribution costs even less. I'd have thought you wouldn't need to have many sales to make a translation profitable.
 

Najos

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WoW Killer said:
krazykidd said:
Oh yeah i know that. But thats not a isolated case , japan has always refused to send over games that posed too high a risk of jot selling well over here . Remember Mother 3? People are still bitter about that . I mean cut us off as a whole . If they were really losing that much money over here ( what with shipping and translating and all that jazz) why not just makes games for japan from japan? Since they sell well over there , and they would save a lot of money and make bigger profits ( assuming they lose money because NA don't buy them).
This has me thinking. How much does it really cost to translate a game? I mean there are very few costs otherwise. Games have very high initial development costs, but once you have that first copy the costs are negligible; CDs cost pennies to print, digital distribution costs even less. I'd have thought you wouldn't need to have many sales to make a translation profitable.
I'm no expert on programming or anything, but translating is something I've done a bit of. That shit is not easy, even if you're an expert in both languages. The problem is that a lot of phrases don't translate very well and such, I mean...you've seen poorly translated anime, I'm sure. So they have to pay people pretty well, I'm guessing. Also, a lot of Japanese games have tons of text and voice acting these days (voice acting is really expensive), which would drive up the cost. Even then, once you have everything translated, you need people to program it all.

So yeah, translations probably aren't that cheap. Here's an old article that actually talks about it: http://www.1up.com/features/golden-age-jrpgs-xenoblade-pandora-tower-last-story-xseed
 

krazykidd

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WoW Killer said:
krazykidd said:
Oh yeah i know that. But thats not a isolated case , japan has always refused to send over games that posed too high a risk of jot selling well over here . Remember Mother 3? People are still bitter about that . I mean cut us off as a whole . If they were really losing that much money over here ( what with shipping and translating and all that jazz) why not just makes games for japan from japan? Since they sell well over there , and they would save a lot of money and make bigger profits ( assuming they lose money because NA don't buy them).
This has me thinking. How much does it really cost to translate a game? I mean there are very few costs otherwise. Games have very high initial development costs, but once you have that first copy the costs are negligible; CDs cost pennies to print, digital distribution costs even less. I'd have thought you wouldn't need to have many sales to make a translation profitable.
Depends . Because most games have voice acting it costs considerably more than say 10 years ago where it was mostly text . And remember all the translation errors old game had ( all you base are belong to is). And until every game is digital download only , you can't subtract the costs of actually sending copies over here . There real question is . What % of each copy sold actually goes to the publisher . And remember because not every copy sent will be sold, not even thinking about used games .

Also remember companies want to make a profit , not just break even . If a publisher makes let's 10 000$ profit ( which is a pretty small profit) , well then is it really worth it? Maybe with the money they saved by not translating and voice acting they could make say 100 000$ in profit instead .( this last part is speculation , but i hope you see my logic.)

Anyways hindsight is 20/20 and there no way to know what could have happened if they didn't release a game in north america . Or inversly to know what would have happened if they did release a game that currently isn't available in NOrth America.
 

Yvl9921

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Apr 4, 2009
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Yeah, it's the voice acting that makes localization expensive.

It's silly to cut the rest of the world off from Japanese games entirely. SOME make a profit from localization, Dark Souls or Bayonetta, for example. But for every game that can make a profit over here there are 5 that won't, and thus don't get translated. These are usually handheld games, which are hugely successful over there, but do terribly over here because we're a home console based market, and they are not. I wish I knew why that was, by the way; I've been scouring google and gamasutra for hours trying to figure this out.
 

Polaris19

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Karutomaru said:
Who cares? Sales mean nothing. And it's current state? You mean the current state of absolute superiority over western games?
Japan has had a good reputation this generation. Western companies.... Not so much.
To a fan, it might seem that way, but developers, publishers, critics, and experts across the board have said the Japanese game industry needs to change or it faces the possibility of dying out slowly. Even some Japanese developers have come out against how the games industry is run in Japan.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-08-kawata-agrees-with-inafune-we-japanese-developers-need-to-re-evaluate

To be clear though, the Japanese games industry is not dying. Not at all. However, it does face a very real problem, because JRPG's have not changed much over the past decade. They haven't taken to new approaches to game development as well as the Western markets have, and the strengths they once had over the competition have all but disappeared. If they want to last, they need to stop trying to do it the same old way and need to try new things and experiment a little. Say what you will about western gaming, but developers here take way more risks overall than the Japanese developers do.

Extra Credits did a really nice three parter that kind of explained the problem way better than I did if your interested..

EDIT: Oh, and I am not saying the Japanese market needs to mirror the Western. I am meerly saying that they need to take risks and try new directions as a general idea.
 

wooty

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Aug 1, 2009
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I guess the Japanese just expect their adults to do more productive things for society and not sit there all night trying to get the better of a racist 12 year old on MW3. Personally, I snap up any Japanese release if it gets sold in the west, I've even gone as far as to buy games in the Japanese language, I aint got a clue whats going on half the time but its still fun.

But we too in the west are margionally stigmatized, lets not forget that anyone who owns a console is a violent, lazy, gun toting psychopath waiting to happen. Your twice as fucked if you enjoy gaming AND listen to rock music.
 

Darknacht

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Yvl9921 said:
Can any escapists vouch for whether this "game bakkari" stigma is a major thing? Preferably with more reliable sources?
I don't have any sources I can give you, but I have know several people who have moved to the US from Japan and according to them yes gaming as an adult has a stigma attached to it, probably even more than in the US. They always laugh at the American idea that in Japan it is common and accepted for adults to play games, watch cartoons, and read comics when in reality adults that admit that they enjoy those things are basically considered the equivalent of a basement dwelling neckbeard.
 

Casual Shinji

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So according to Japanese mentality, playing games on a handheld is like jerking off in private (acceptable), and playing games on a TV connected console is like jerking off in public (big no-no).

No wonder Japanese console games have sucked the way the have this generation.
 

Folji

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Yvl9921 said:
Can any escapists vouch for whether this "game bakkari" stigma is a major thing?
Can't vouch for or against it, but it's not the first time I've heard about stuff like that. It's a pretty odd situation, anyway; spending hours rambling about games you adore because you used to play them when you were young is okay, but show some interest in current games and OH MY GOD WILL YOU STOP WASTING ALL YOUR TIME ON GAMES?

Weird stuff.
 

Baldr

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Realistically it was bad management of creative control, failure to adopt outside game technology, and a lack of a flourishing independent game scene in the country lead to a stagnation in production. That is what is hurting Japanese gaming scene.
 

ElPatron

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krazykidd said:
f it was REALLY dying , they would just stop shiping games over here wouldn't they . That would save them a lot of money .
Funny, because every other day I hear complaints about a load of Japanese games not being released because the Japanese don't want to take risks.

wooty said:
But we too in the west are margionally stigmatized, lets not forget that anyone who owns a console is a violent, lazy, gun toting psychopath waiting to happen. Your twice as fucked if you enjoy gaming AND listen to rock music.
I have to disagree. The influx of "dudebros", "fratboys" and kids on this generation made gaming very common among young people.
 

WoW Killer

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krazykidd said:
Depends . Because most games have voice acting it costs considerably more than say 10 years ago where it was mostly text . And remember all the translation errors old game had ( all you base are belong to is). And until every game is digital download only , you can't subtract the costs of actually sending copies over here . There real question is . What % of each copy sold actually goes to the publisher . And remember because not every copy sent will be sold, not even thinking about used games .

Also remember companies want to make a profit , not just break even . If a publisher makes let's 10 000$ profit ( which is a pretty small profit) , well then is it really worth it? Maybe with the money they saved by not translating and voice acting they could make say 100 000$ in profit instead .( this last part is speculation , but i hope you see my logic.)

Anyways hindsight is 20/20 and there no way to know what could have happened if they didn't release a game in north america . Or inversly to know what would have happened if they did release a game that currently isn't available in NOrth America.
Actually yeah I'll grant voice acting is probably expensive. On the other hand, in such cases a subtitled version should be quite cheap to knock up. I know it wouldn't appeal to the masses, but that doesn't matter so much if the market is niche to begin with.

The thing about games is, from a marginal economic perspective, your very first copy can cost millions to create. From then on, you're spending pennies to churn out copy after copy that sell for, say $60 a piece. Though the producer doesn't see that much obviously, I've no idea what actual profits they make per sale. Still, it's pennies turning into dollars for sure. Your prime goal is to make up that initial cost of that first copy. Once that is out of the way, you're rolling in it; every sale from then on is massive profit. If you've already reached that point, and you're talking about translating a game, then the marginal cost is higher than selling your last copy sure, but it's not as absurdly high as developing that first original. Surely anything that can get this product to a new audience is going to be worth the cost, or so I'd have thought.