Except both of the games you just mentioned allow third person perspective with the tap of a button. In fact most people I see playing them online play them in 3rd person mode.DrDuckman said:The newer Fallout or Elder Scrolls games would not work nearly as well with third person perspectives, simply because they focus so much on the exploration and, well, hiking experience for their appeal.
Ha. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but if not, I can run and look behind me in real life (not just when moving a snail's pace).Blood Brain Barrier said:What? Yeah you can. Just look behind you while pressing the backwards key. Easy.Phoenixmgs said:1st-person is not inherently more immersive. Firstly, you can't even move forward and look backwards like you can in real life or with a 3rd-person camera.
I haven't played Amnesia as I don't PC game game. I'm actually playing Divinity Original Sin now, but that's like the 1st PC game I've played in 10+ years. But, anyways, I'm not a fan of horror games taking away basic things you can do as a normal human to make it scarier. Humans, in most horror situations, are already rather feeble to begin with. Just the limiting view (no peripheral vision), I'm not a fan of and why I prefer 3rd-person shooters way more than FPSs. The Fatal Frame games are the scariest games I've played and they're 3rd-person. You forget you're "watching" some other character for the most most just like you forget you're playing with a controller or KB/M when you play.Doom972 said:With that in mind, First Person does have the highest potential for immersion. As immersive as a third-person game can be, you'll always feel like you're watching someone else rather than being there yourself - and that reduces immersion. Have you ever played Amnesia: The Dark Descent? Can you imagine it done in a different perspective and still remain as immersive?
Scary does not equal immersive. I don't see how you can forget that you are watching a character when it's right in front of your eyes. I'm not trying to say that you should prefer first person games, just that first person has better immersion potential, which means a specific 3rd person game could be more immersive than a specific 1st person game. For example: The Witcher 2 is far more immersive than Quake 3. The first person perspective has more potential for achieving immersion, but it doesn't automatically mean that all games that use it are more immersive than those that don't.Phoenixmgs said:Ha. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but if not, I can run and look behind me in real life (not just when moving a snail's pace).Blood Brain Barrier said:What? Yeah you can. Just look behind you while pressing the backwards key. Easy.Phoenixmgs said:1st-person is not inherently more immersive. Firstly, you can't even move forward and look backwards like you can in real life or with a 3rd-person camera.
I haven't played Amnesia as I don't PC game game. I'm actually playing Divinity Original Sin now, but that's like the 1st PC game I've played in 10+ years. But, anyways, I'm not a fan of horror games taking away basic things you can do as a normal human to make it scarier. Humans, in most horror situations, are already rather feeble to begin with. Just the limiting view (no peripheral vision), I'm not a fan of and why I prefer 3rd-person shooters way more than FPSs. The Fatal Frame games are the scariest games I've played and they're 3rd-person. You forget you're "watching" some other character for the most most just like you forget you're playing with a controller or KB/M when you play.Doom972 said:With that in mind, First Person does have the highest potential for immersion. As immersive as a third-person game can be, you'll always feel like you're watching someone else rather than being there yourself - and that reduces immersion. Have you ever played Amnesia: The Dark Descent? Can you imagine it done in a different perspective and still remain as immersive?
I'm not being sarcastic, there is absolutely NO difference between 1st and 3rd person when it comes to looking behind you. If you can run forwards in a 1st person game, then you can do it while looking behind. Just like 3rd person. I think the problem is that you may be a console peasant so your controller might not allow you to do what mouse and keyboard does.Phoenixmgs said:Ha. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but if not, I can run and look behind me in real life (not just when moving a snail's pace).Blood Brain Barrier said:What? Yeah you can. Just look behind you while pressing the backwards key. Easy.Phoenixmgs said:1st-person is not inherently more immersive. Firstly, you can't even move forward and look backwards like you can in real life or with a 3rd-person camera.
Same way you forget you're playing with a controller.Doom972 said:I don't see how you can forget that you are watching a character when it's right in front of your eyes.
So is what you are suggesting that to truly invest a player (or more specifically, you), then a game must strive to mimic reality as best as it can? Would you call a fantasty game with a first-person perspective less immersive than a realistic-looking game played from a first-person perspective?Smooth Operator said:It technically is because it's the closest thing to our real life experience, but if you don't get the fidelity up high enough things can be far more immersion breaking because you get to see all the flaws.
And we are talking everything from models/textures/animations/effects/sounds and voice acting, in a top down game those can all go to a far lower standard but when directly observed you need to have it all tightened up.
Until we can get a certain level of fidelity across the board FPS will not always be a good call.
I think you touch on something interesting with what you describe as the key pillar for immersion, willful suspension of disbelief, and I want to expand on it. Willful suspension of disbelief is something someone must do when they sit down to derive any sort of entertainment from an experience rooted in the arts. Would you not say that perhaps the true cornerstone of immersion is the level of effort one must take to willfully suspend their disbelief about what they are experiencing? Essentially, the less someone feels as though they engage in willful suspension of disbelief, the more immersed they are feeling.Bad Jim said:No. The key concept for immersion is "willing suspension of disbelief". It comes from theatre and similar arts, where obvious inconsistencies will be ignored if they facilitate the telling of the story or would be impractical to eliminate. For instance, the characters will not usually acknowledge the audience, the stage will be a football field in one scene and utility closet in the next while remaining the same size, and characters whispering secrets can nonetheless be clearly heard from the back of the theatre. These are obvious inconsistencies, but the audience chooses to ignore them in order to enjoy the show.
Therefore, the most immersive perspective is simply the one that best facilitates play, which could even be top-down. A first person camera can actually break immersion in some cases, such as when platforming.
In all the 1st-person games I play, the only way to not move in a direction the camera is facing is to move backwards, which your character moves slowly and you can't sprint. At least us peasants can utilize analog inputs.Blood Brain Barrier said:I'm not being sarcastic, there is absolutely NO difference between 1st and 3rd person when it comes to looking behind you. If you can run forwards in a 1st person game, then you can do it while looking behind. Just like 3rd person. I think the problem is that you may be a console peasant so your controller might not allow you to do what mouse and keyboard does.
No no, I wasn't referring to realism I meant context consistency and suspension of disbelief.alphamalet said:So is what you are suggesting that to truly invest a player (or more specifically, you), then a game must strive to mimic reality as best as it can? Would you call a fantasty game with a first-person perspective less immersive than a realistic-looking game played from a first-person perspective?
It's not in front on your eyes. Unless you actually hold it in front of your eyes, which sounds a very uncomfortable way to play.Phoenixmgs said:Same way you forget you're playing with a controller.Doom972 said:I don't see how you can forget that you are watching a character when it's right in front of your eyes.
Not really. What's important is whether it's justified that we must suspend our disbelief. For instance, we poke fun at Lois Lane for not realising that Clark Kent is Superman, but we never question the fact that Superman can fly or stop a locomotive with his bare hands. Supermans' abilies are far less realistic than Lois Lanes' obliviousness, but they are justified because if we want to enjoy a superhero story, we must accept that the hero is super. On the other hand, we can still have a perfectly good superhero story when Lois knows Clarks' secret, and indeed there are such stories, so there is no justification for her being so oblivious, it's just bad writing.alphamalet said:Would you not say that perhaps the true cornerstone of immersion is the level of effort one must take to willfully suspend their disbelief about what they are experiencing?