Are next gen games getting shorter?

shadow skill

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If this is not a case of the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. While I do acknowledge typographical errors, you should be aware that the past tense of equal can be spelled with two l's. This begs the question shouldn't you use a dictionary if you are going to harp on the spelling and grammar of others?

- My name is 'Catgrrr'. Although I don't have the inclination to host my avatar as the nude portrait done in charcoal of myself by a great artist, I'm female. I felt 'Catgrrl' would be all too unsubtle, and without the pre-requisite knowledge of 80-90's comics would throw back to the bastardisation of said subculture via the film, still. Oh. And boys, 'tool' as an insult is about as mature as 'gay'. If you want to say 'cock', say it, don't use some overly middle-class sanctioned through DIY improvement TV euphemism. Oh, and learn how to flame - paltry efforts.
Why is there a full stop after "oh" in this sentence?
Oh. And boys, 'tool' as an insult is about as mature as 'gay'. If you want to say 'cock', say it, don't use some overly middle-class sanctioned through DIY improvement TV euphemism.
I would imagine that you [gasp] accidentally typed a period instead of a comma when you wrote that. [Heaven forbid such a thing occur!] You should also note that all punctuations should be inside the quotation marks. You should also take note that "gay" should be in double quotes unless of course you are somehow quoting yourself, in which case it seems that you are missing some double quotes.

I also find it odd that you state that your name is "[sic]'Catgrrr,'" yet your display name only has two r's rather than the three you use in the third paragraph of your post.

Were there not other games that used simillar mechanics before Half Life 2 came out with respect to levetating objects and so forth?
 

ccesarano

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Well, on the same hand, I'll like to check the price of games over the last two decades, including inflation.
We'd probably see that for the relative same prices, the production costs kept increasing on and on.
Actually, by looking back you'd find that games are technically cheaper than they used to be. At least, for us console gamers. PC games were always around $50, last I knew, and haven't changed much.

However, I remember paying upwards of $70 for a new SNES game. I know my copy of Ogre Battle 64 was $69.99 plus tax, and that was after it was released for some time. My copy of Secret of Evermore for the SNES was $64.99 new. Mega Man X being $20 in a bargain bin at KB-Toys after being several years out and at least one sequel, if not two, released since was a sweet deal back then.

Take inflation into account, and our current $60 for a new game situation is actually still cheaper than what we were paying ten years ago, despite rising development costs.

Also, people on these forums need to stop being so absolutely full of themselves when they get into arguments. I've just about marked half of the contributors here to be ignored simply because there's this incredibly arrogant attitude of "I'm convinced I'm a genius so no matter what you're wrong and beneath me". Time to have some humble pie for dessert, man.
 

nagumo [deprecated]

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I concur. Anyone remember the pricing on NeoGeo carts? Sure, the system was the same thing that populated arcades, but boy was the bum raping brutal at the register.
 

shadow skill

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I wonder how services like Gamefly factor into the whole thing? I play more games than I ever did when I was younger but I also do not actually end up buying as many as I did during the ps1/ps2 era.
 

Labyrinth

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A story needs strength whether it lasts for two hours or 12. Either way, without decent, -varying- plot points it gets boring. Coloured lights and enough action to fill a Hollywood theatre may help to keep people interested if they enjoy FPS online, but other than that everyone else is going to wander away with irritation oozing from their pores. Length or lack thereof is no excuse for lack of quality. A game with sufficient credit-worthy features should keep the player interested well into the 10th hour, or give them a rush and be over in 3, whichever fits better.
 

sergeantz

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I think Gamefly factors in, and I also think that MMORPGs are a factor. I think that one of the largest factors of shorter games is consumer impatience. I think the advent of the internet has made us clamor for instant gratification more than ever before. So once the general populace finds out about a game, I believe that the developers put a kind of time window on themselves for the final product to be released.

I saw a recent interview with Cliff Blesinski where he explained the reason for the additional content for the PC version of Gears of War. It basically boiled down to the fact that if they added the content to the 360 version, they would have overshot their timeline.

I believe that this is because our attention spans are collectively getting shorter, and if the game isn't published quickly, they think sales will suffer as we've already directed our attention towards the next shiny object.
 

danimal1384

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i didn't have time yet to read everyone's threads. i read the first three and thought i need to say one thing right now.
i think that next gens games are getting shorter, but this is probably a short term thing overall. maybe another two years. then they will start getting longer. but the reason for this shortening is that the demographic of video games is changing. video games are becoming much more popular with a casual gaming community, mostly the collegiate party boy type of people. this is mostly a result of the x-box and of course the 360. this was inevitable, cause games have becoming smoother and have pushed the envelope for violence. it plaicates to the testosterone filled primal urges of violence that easily manifests itself within college males who paint their faced for the saturday game. and there are alot of these kinds of people. i don't have anything against those kinds of people, though. its just stating observations. so when the market expands like this, especially in such a leap in less than 10 years, the way the games are made and their content will generally do the same. and since these people don't spend hours on hours playing games, they will loose interest if a game takes them over a month to finish. they would just go to versus mode without doint everything. so the games get shorter. but maybe we will get back our well-written, longer games back soon.
 

Geoffrey42

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Arbre's point about shorter games getting consumers to buy more frequently is pretty cool. I think, in combination with rising budgets and accelerated schedules, this is another factor that may be consciously (or subconsciously) being worked into the development schedule at the big studios.

I imagine the rule in the Game Developer's Handbook goes something like: "Never put more content into a game than is necessary for it to sell. Any content beyond the consumer's purchasing threshold is lost revenue from a sequel or expansion."

Right now, we're probably just experiencing the testing phase. How short can we make a $50-60 game and still have people buy it in sufficient numbers to turn a profit? 8 hours? 6? 5? After this holiday season, they can crunch the numbers, and start dictating how long all games will be from here on out.

@sergeantz: While CliffyB's point sounds genuine enough, I also have to wonder whether content was held specifically for the PC version, to entice people to purchase it on both platforms. It's always about SKU differentiation with Microsoft, so it doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. Then again, maybe I'm just bitter.
 

Geoffrey42

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Catgrr said:
- My name is 'Catgrrr'. Although I don't have the inclination to host my avatar as the nude portrait done in charcoal of myself by a great artist, I'm female. I felt 'Catgrrl' would be all too unsubtle, and without the pre-requisite knowledge of 80-90's comics would throw back to the bastardisation of said subculture via the film, still. Oh. And boys, 'tool' as an insult is about as mature as 'gay'. If you want to say 'cock', say it, don't use some overly middle-class sanctioned through DIY improvement TV euphemism. Oh, and learn how to flame - paltry efforts.
I did not use "tool" as a euphemism for "penis". I said exactly what I <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_%28insult%29>meant. Potentially, in British English, it has different connotations. Just like "From the go" is typically formed "From the get(-)go" in my part of the US, which is why, I believe, someone else thought you were missing a word. Also, the "flame" comment may have been meant towards all of us who've taken offense, or maybe just those that have been nit-picking in retaliation, but either way, that wasn't my intent. Moreso, I was pointing out our common enjoyment of proper grammar, but appending a personal preference for courtesy and kindness, then insulting you for what I considered to be a lack thereof. Either way, my apologies for the insult.

- Portal isn't a full game. Its a PoC, and what games would be like if the creative / coding departments weren't whored out to the media marketing / PR people. Call it what you want, but its basically a sly call to war by the team at valve who still remember making interesting games. And yes, its fucking magic, but that doesn't excuse HL2 being, well. About as revolutionary as The Sims 2: stalker in your neighbourhood and paparazzi garbage search.
I'm not sure what your definition of a "full" game is, but mostly I see PoC's as half-complete. Un-polished. Throw something together just to see how it plays, or if it even works. Portal was polished, balanced, and one of the most satisfying gaming experiences I've had in recent times. It seemed like a full game to me.

As far as the sly call to war, given what's been said about how Portal came to be (short version: Newell liked Narbacular Drop, hired team on the spot, chained them to their desks until they made Portal, and brought in that really funny guy to add flavor), it seems like Portal was an active decision from the top of the company's structure. Unless your implication is that Gabe Newell is trapped in his ivory tower, surrounded by over-powerful underlings who aren't letting him make interesting games, and hiring those DigiPen kids was his call to war?

My assumption with that last bit is that you're specifically referring to Episode 2 as being un-revolutionary, as opposed to the whole of HL2 being un-revolutionary? I think the gravity gun was a pretty great thing, and they've done some good things with the way they tell their stories, so I disagree if you're saying it about HL2 in general. Episode 2 may not be revolutionary (compared to HL2 and Ep1), but since when are expansion packs supposed to be? What's wrong with refinements? Why would there be a need for an excuse for being more of the same?
 

Geoffrey42

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Please ignore if your primary interest is videogame length; if bored, or masochistic, read on...
shadow skill said:
You should also note that all punctuations should be inside the quotation marks.
Personally, this is one of my least favorite rules of grammar, and one which I typically go out of my way to break. Maybe it's something to do with being anal, or with having spent a fair amount of time programming, but to me, everything inside quotation marks should be exactly that: quotation. If the punctuation is part of what I'm saying, and not part of what they're saying, WHY in 's name should it be inside the quotes? Observe:

You: Hi!
Me: Did you just say, "Hi?"
You: No, I said, "Hi!"
Me: That's what I just said.
You: No it's not.

Right up there on my list of rules to hate is the (relatively) recent ban on using "they/them/their" as gender-neutral singular pronouns. If only just a little less bad is the follow-up suggestion to err on the side of "she/her" instead of "he/him/his" to balance gender bias. (And no. Don't even think of suggesting that I use "she/he", "him/her", or "his/her" as a replacement. That's just idiotic, and absolutely unacceptable when speaking.) Though, had I followed this rule earlier, a certain individual wouldn't've realized that I didn't know their gender. (Another grammatical hobby of mine: illegally stringing together contractions. Absolutely blissful.)

P.S. You should also note that the plural of punctuation is "punctuation".
 

Katana314

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This magazine used to be for intellectuals...

I won't say anything bad about someone who doesn't like the Half-Life 2 series. But if you can't give a valid enough reason, and start insulting its developers...you won't find me being too happy...
If you don't mind, let's not pay much attention to the flamers.
 

Alex Karls

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Jacques 2 said:
What is more revolutionary, the gravity gun or the portal gun? just an off the wall question since both have been tossed around the thread for a while
Sorry to jump back to this, but I feel I owe Jacques 2 and answer. I think, for the time being, the gravity gun is more revolutionary. It proved that it could work as a stand alone gameplay mechanic, and was easily integrated into the entire game structure.

As soon as they iron out their ideas for the portal gun, and give it to us in earnest, it'll take the top spot. Portal is a very specific environment that's totally custom built for the portal gun. By comparison, you could shoot your way through Ravenholm in HL2, but you could also just throw stuff at the zombies with the gravity gun.

That said, I still haven't played the portal gun in HL2 hack, so that might render my argument pointless. If HL2 is just as enjoyable and just as awesome with the portal gun, then it should rightly take the top spot.

Of course, they could just be awesome and give us a single gun that does both things.
 

Geoffrey42

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
It's actually not true--exclamation points and question marks only go inside if they were part of the original statement: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_quote.html

So good news for you--your least favorite rule is not a rule at all!
I stand corrected. Even then, I still hate the rule as correctly formulated. Maybe I hate it less, but I still dislike putting anything inside a quotation which was not part of the original quotation. Just, feels... wrong.
 

shadow skill

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It seems to depend on where you look, this [http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp] seems to disagree. I think having them inside looks neater depending on how I have constructed things. I guess it is like the difference between "centre," and "center," the latter is clearly more logical in terms of spelling; but I prefer the former for asthetic reasons.

As far as the gravity gun in Half life 2 goes, there were other games using the same mechanic that came out before it. So I would argue that the gravity gun was indeed not revolutionary at all as the mechanic already existed in other games.

I have not played Portal but I would say that the distortion of space used in Prey was probably more revolutionary than Portal is.
 

sergeantz

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Geoffrey42 said:
While CliffyB's point sounds genuine enough, I also have to wonder whether content was held specifically for the PC version, to entice people to purchase it on both platforms. It's always about SKU differentiation with Microsoft, so it doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. Then again, maybe I'm just bitter.
You have a point, but at the same time, Epic stuck to its guns about being XP compatible. Their main goal is to sell units, so it may have just been a company line. Who knows.
 

Jacques 2

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Alex Karls said:
Jacques 2 said:
What is more revolutionary, the gravity gun or the portal gun? just an off the wall question since both have been tossed around the thread for a while
Sorry to jump back to this, but I feel I owe Jacques 2 and answer. I think, for the time being, the gravity gun is more revolutionary. It proved that it could work as a stand alone gameplay mechanic, and was easily integrated into the entire game structure.

As soon as they iron out their ideas for the portal gun, and give it to us in earnest, it'll take the top spot. Portal is a very specific environment that's totally custom built for the portal gun. By comparison, you could shoot your way through Ravenholm in HL2, but you could also just throw stuff at the zombies with the gravity gun.

That said, I still haven't played the portal gun in HL2 hack, so that might render my argument pointless. If HL2 is just as enjoyable and just as awesome with the portal gun, then it should rightly take the top spot.

Of course, they could just be awesome and give us a single gun that does both things.
The pick up and throw objects concept was around before HL2, though HL2 improved on it a lot and simplified it, much like Narbacular drop came before Portal. The only problems I can see with the portal gun in a full normal environment is how much development would have to go into map making to make sure that it couldn't break the game without making it very obvious.

I wonder how long an open environment game could last with the portal gun. People could probably portal through maps a lot faster than they run through them now.