Are Superheroes Fascist By Modern Standards?

Cicada 5

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2015
2,479
1,169
118
Country
Nigeria
He also proved his point by playing on Manchester Black and the Elite's level for all of ten minutes. It was appropriately terrifying.
That story fails as a counter to the Elite's argument because Superman never actually engages with it. Also, it's rather hypocritical because this is the same Superman that has killed it's just that the villains weren't human so they "didn't count".
 

Secondhand Revenant

Recycle, Reduce, Redead
Legacy
Oct 29, 2014
2,564
139
68
Baator
Country
The Nine Hells
Gender
Male
Yeah see that's the thing, the classic characters that we use as templates whenever this discussion come up, are themselves, not really any one thing. They alter from era to era, and writer to writer. Whether it's an "elseworld" take on the character, or just some really opinionated writer who was given a lot of liberty to take the character in crazy ways, that has to be course corrected by the subsequent writer in a retcon.

So it's really a futile discussion, as none of them are ever one thing. Comic book characters are a lens we often use to focus on certain aspects of our culture.
I don't think it's futile in the least just because you can't say X character is always a certain way. You can easily just be talking about certain instances or storylines
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 13, 2010
8,577
2,981
118
I don't think it's futile in the least just because you can't say X character is always a certain way. You can easily just be talking about certain instances or storylines
Of course I'm talking about certain instances or storylines, that's my whole point. It's all fictional. But the question of the thread is far more broad than that, and asking if all superheroes, at their fundamental level, are fascist. And seeing as nothing about them is actual set in stone, and is subject to drastic change at the drop of a hat, and change of a writer, it's a pretty futile question at the level it's presented.
 

Secondhand Revenant

Recycle, Reduce, Redead
Legacy
Oct 29, 2014
2,564
139
68
Baator
Country
The Nine Hells
Gender
Male
Of course I'm talking about certain instances or storylines, that's my whole point. It's all fictional. But the question of the thread is far more broad than that, and asking if all superheroes, at their fundamental level, are fascist. And seeing as nothing about them is actual set in stone, and is subject to drastic change at the drop of a hat, and change of a writer, it's a pretty futile question at the level it's presented.
I mean I think it's not an all or nothing thing so the answer is 'Some can display those tendencies or undertones' tho it's not usually outright. The original view presented is too broad for sure but I don't think it had to be a basic yes/no thing.
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 13, 2010
8,577
2,981
118
I mean I think it's not an all or nothing thing so the answer is 'Some can display those tendencies or undertones' tho it's not usually outright. The original view presented is too broad for sure but I don't think it had to be a basic yes/no thing.
I don't think it's an all or nothing answer either, that's why I think the question, as presented, is pointless. If you want to debate whether say....batman from Dark Knight Returns, is specifically a fascist take on the character, or the superman from that version, sure, go ahead. But just "superheroes are fascist" is just ludicrous in my opinion. There are too many of them with varied backgrounds and goals for the one question to apply to all of them.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,300
6,798
118
Country
United States
Depends on the writer.

I mean, in the MCU, it would've been super-duper handy for SHEILD to have a few murder-fortresses flying around for when Thanos or Ultron showed up. Just really, super-useful. The double-nazis had the right idea
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kae

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
*glances at Watchmen*
I mean, yeah, if they even count as human anymore. Otherwise they feel rightfully superior.
 

ObsidianJones

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 29, 2020
1,118
1,442
118
Country
United States
Come to think of it, aren't most superheroes just vigilantes?

If I dress up in spandex and beat up criminals at night, does that make me a fascist or a vigilante? You could say both, granted.
That's the thing with heroes like Batman and the Green Arrow. You want to enact real change? Education, jobs that aren't going to leave the city and plenty of them. Their hometowns saved

But when Darkseid is coming down, a trick arrow is going to do little. You need Superman.

And that's all you need Superman for. I personally have no issue if Batman and Green Arrow and the likes of non powered heroes joining the police. In fact, they should.

However, with recent events, I would not like a Police Officer with the literal strength to Bench Press the Earth for several days straight under orders of any Government currently in power on this planet. Maybe New Zealand.

There are superheroes who are necessary like Superman, taking on Galaxy Level threats. And there is Batman, whose greatest enemy is a good shrink with a bottle of Prozac. Who if he wanted real change, he should devote as much more and time in actually changing Gotham than giving a fraction of what his budget is to fund Batman.
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,045
5,346
118
Australia
And there is Batman, whose greatest enemy is a good shrink with a bottle of Prozac. Who if he wanted real change, he should devote as much more and time in actually changing Gotham than giving a fraction of what his budget is to fund Batman.
Except Bruce Wayne and Oliver Queen both do that. They head many, many charitable foundations and have very progressive hiring policies for their many companies and subsidiaries. Its just like all other things with superhero comics, status quo is God and the positive effects of these things are very seldom dwelt upon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Specter Von Baren

ObsidianJones

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 29, 2020
1,118
1,442
118
Country
United States
Except Bruce Wayne and Oliver Queen both do that. They head many, many charitable foundations and have very progressive hiring policies for their many companies and subsidiaries. Its just like all other things with superhero comics, status quo is God and the positive effects of these things are very seldom dwelt upon.
This is the part of the Rich Superhero that bugs me. They will go outside the Law to harm criminals because of their sense of justice. Then why not go all the way? If they devoted less time putting on a costume to act our their need of physical Justice and devoted themselves to tackling real problems, like instead of setting up shadow organizations like Iron man and Batman did to bring about change in their respective cultures, there would be less crime in these cities. Wakanda is a great example of that.

Realistically. There are people who will always do crime in the real world. But given opportunity, crime lessens for honest work. That's been shown all over the world, throughout history. Rich Superheroes don't make sense because if they give so much and set up chances like wouldn't be possible in the real world, crime would plummet. But crime is still around because Rich Guy gotta punch bad guy for the lulz.
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 13, 2010
8,577
2,981
118
That's the thing with heroes like Batman and the Green Arrow. You want to enact real change? Education, jobs that aren't going to leave the city and plenty of them. Their hometowns saved

But when Darkseid is coming down, a trick arrow is going to do little. You need Superman.

And that's all you need Superman for. I personally have no issue if Batman and Green Arrow and the likes of non powered heroes joining the police. In fact, they should.

However, with recent events, I would not like a Police Officer with the literal strength to Bench Press the Earth for several days straight under orders of any Government currently in power on this planet. Maybe New Zealand.

There are superheroes who are necessary like Superman, taking on Galaxy Level threats. And there is Batman, whose greatest enemy is a good shrink with a bottle of Prozac. Who if he wanted real change, he should devote as much more and time in actually changing Gotham than giving a fraction of what his budget is to fund Batman.
You'd probably really enjoy the book series Superpowered by Drew Hayes.

Actually anyone who is a big fan of superheroes in general, but also enjoys questions of authorization of action and stuff like that, should read Superpowered. I've mentioned it pretty much in every thread that's relevent, but it's a REALLY good book series about superheroes and their impact on the world, from a somewhat more realistic lens. They do bring up the issue of government sanctioned authority, vigilantism and stuff like that, it's baked into the premise. I've also mentioned this before but, it's basically My Hero Academia, but college instead of highschool. And it's in the US instead of Japan. But a LOT of the same threads of stories, echo over. Like, that entire arc in MHA, about why the kids have to wait until they are licensed heroes before they go out and act, that comes up. What it means to be a hero, what their purpose is in the society, how that has shaped every other aspect of the world.

Seriously they're really fucking good books, you should check them out.
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 13, 2010
8,577
2,981
118
This is the part of the Rich Superhero that bugs me. They will go outside the Law to harm criminals because of their sense of justice. Then why not go all the way?
Because that wouldn't make for an interesting, and exciting weekly publication to sell to children. But a dude running around in a bat costume, punching Bad Guys in the face, and Saving the Day, is easily digestible, and endlessly appealing, as evidenced by that model being viable for close to a century now.

Plus they can't actually "fix" the world they live in, as if they do so, then you can't have these villains menagerie of antagonists to throw against them for spicy appeal. If Arkham actually WORKED as a mental facility, we'd never have repeating villains. And people like villains, so they want them to keep showing back up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gordon_4

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 13, 2010
8,577
2,981
118
From 2013, .... I think prompts some interesting thoughts.

Can't watch the whole thing right now, as I'm at work, but it's very easy to fabricate a situation to paint them as always being badguys, by appealing to the worst aspect of humanity. But the reality is we don't know what would happen to anyone with powers. The idea that they would all become murderous assholes because "who's gonna stop me." completely ignores things like, you know, personal morals, their own ideals about right/wrong, etc. So pointing to something that's been specifically designed, to color the idea of a superhero as a murderous vigilante and say "see?" seems a bit unfair, as that's the entire point of the thing created.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
18,580
3,538
118
Can't watch the whole thing right now, as I'm at work, but it's very easy to fabricate a situation to paint them as always being badguys, by appealing to the worst aspect of humanity. But the reality is we don't know what would happen to anyone with powers. The idea that they would all become murderous assholes because "who's gonna stop me." completely ignores things like, you know, personal morals, their own ideals about right/wrong, etc. So pointing to something that's been specifically designed, to color the idea of a superhero as a murderous vigilante and say "see?" seems a bit unfair, as that's the entire point of the thing created.
Erm...we don't know what would happen if you give someone superpowers, no. We do have lots of examples of what happens if you give people power, in the general sense, and ensure they aren't held accountable. It's usually not great.
 

gorfias

Unrealistic but happy
Legacy
May 13, 2009
7,083
1,849
118
Country
USA
Can't watch the whole thing right now, as I'm at work, but it's very easy to fabricate a situation to paint them as always being badguys, by appealing to the worst aspect of humanity. But the reality is we don't know what would happen to anyone with powers. The idea that they would all become murderous assholes because "who's gonna stop me." completely ignores things like, you know, personal morals, their own ideals about right/wrong, etc. So pointing to something that's been specifically designed, to color the idea of a superhero as a murderous vigilante and say "see?" seems a bit unfair, as that's the entire point of the thing created.
I hope you get a chance to watch it. It's about free will more than the flying man being monsterous. Were there some force (G-d?) to strike you down if you ever so much as illegally parked, what does it say about you and your choices if you simply do not do wrong out of fear of repercussions?
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 13, 2010
8,577
2,981
118
I hope you get a chance to watch it. It's about free will more than the flying man being monsterous. Were there some force (G-d?) to strike you down if you ever so much as illegally parked, what does it say about you and your choices if you simply do not do wrong out of fear of repercussions?
Ok so, I watched it, and I'm not that impressed. I mean, he's basically just "The Punisher" but with Superman's power set. The thing is, Punisher was meant as a parody of superheroes. The jingo-esque, kill em all, might makes right, let god sort em out, bullshit rhetoric. He NOT what a superhero actually is. It's why he's so often at odds with the classic superheroes. The reality is that most people don't rely simply on the threat of punishment to behave. We have a thing as a species called empathy, and while how empathic someone is varies wildly, it's still there. We BENEFIT from looking out for each other. It's actually a frequent "gotcha" comment from religious people, when an atheist discusses it with them. The tired "well what's stopping you from just going out and raping and murdering people?" the answer is the same thing that's actually stopping you. The lack of a desire to do that to my fellow humans. Because if you took away what you THINK is actually preventing you (belief in a godly punishment), would you just suddenly go around killing people? Nobody who is religious ever answers that honestly with yes. Because they're not fucking assholes at their core.

So yeah, it's a nice little short film as far as the quality and budget, but it doesn't make me think about free will or anything.
 

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,276
794
118
Country
United States
I would do one of two things if I was a superhero.

Hide; so I don't get killed, conscripted, captured, and etc.

Make the world a better place if the world was accepting, and I had immense power.

And I don't just mean fighting random criminals, I mean improving HDI, reducing the Gini coefficient for income inequality, UBI for all via asteroid mining, fighting genocides, and etc.
 

Shadyside

Bad Hombre
Legacy
Aug 20, 2020
1,865
498
88
On top of your sister
Country
Republic of Texas
Gender
Hombre
Most of them are basically vigilantes. Which is why most of them wear costumes and have secret identities. They don't work for the government or any branch of the military. Most stories let them get away with almost anything since the government is useless at fighting against world destroying villains.