Are Women Tournaments Sexist?

blackrave

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Dr. Doomsduck said:
Because that kind of talk doesn't change the fact that 91% of all rapes are inflicted upon women and only 1% is done by them. It doesn't change the fact that, in this society, a man has a better chance of getting a job when he applies.

You cannot compare a case of racism or sexism to general trashtalk, because being a 'momma's boy' isn't a structural problem in modern society that can be tracked back to the stone age. By enforcing the 'fun' in rape and sexual harrasement, you're enforcing stereotypes that not hurt us as a person, but our perceived inferiority to men.

And believe you me, when a guy start yelling that kind of shit at me, I always get the tendency to make neutering jokes, but, again, that would just enforce his idea that he is allowed to make jokes about it.
I don't enforce anything, I just don't understand why women don't trash talk
Guys are as insure as girls (especially amongst the gamers), and if you hit all the right buttons you can make him stop playing, slowly crawl back to his corner and start crying. Thus ensuring easy victory.
 

Dr. Doomsduck

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rbstewart7263 said:
Dr. Doomsduck said:
blackrave said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
ForgottenPr0digy said:
Joke answer:maybe they do that protect the women from getting bullied/raped/sexual harassed by the male players?
Ummm...You do know that the bullying and sexual harassment part DOES happen, right?

Kind of tasteless "joke" answer there.
I fail to understand why women don't trash talk back
You know, talking about small penis size and overcompensation
Mentioning him being mommas boy, whiny and annoying
Stuff like that- it can't be that hard to figure out ways to insult and humiliate back.
From my experience women are excellent at emotional violence, and trash talking isn't anything more than emotional violence.
Because that kind of talk doesn't change the fact that 91% of all rapes are inflicted upon women and only 1% is done by them. It doesn't change the fact that, in this society, a man has a better chance of getting a job when he applies.

You cannot compare a case of racism or sexism to general trashtalk, because being a 'momma's boy' isn't a structural problem in modern society that can be tracked back to the stone age. By enforcing the 'fun' in rape and sexual harrasement, you're enforcing stereotypes that not hurt us as a person, but our perceived inferiority to men.

And believe you me, when a guy start yelling that kind of shit at me, I always get the tendency to make neutering jokes, but, again, that would just enforce his idea that he is allowed to make jokes about it.
I would check where your statistics come from alot of second wave fems and fems who hold key positions of power would and have admitted to fudging statistics as to create an air of ongoing conspiracy against women.

Like that 90 percent of rapes go unreported thing? Turns out the true number of reported rapes is around 55 percent. When asked about the disparity the ladies who issued the test simply said that "the numbers dont matter" and they do when trying to figure out for example if we are a violence loving rape culture or simply a culture with a few bad apples.

that said our judicial system does not favor rape victims at all and I cant for the life of me figure out why.

http://www.freewebs.com/feminism-evaluated/

and people hate men that live with mom???
Alright, you got me there, this was the result of a quick'n'lazy wikipedia search *goes looking for the actual source* it was the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics in 1997.

The numbers definitely matter, but I think it's a little too easy to say, well, we acknowledge that there was a sexist problem in the past, but now that we've admitted it, the problem is solved. If you ask me, if half of the rapes go unnoticed, that's still way too much.

So yeah, things are definitely improving, but let's not stagnate until we've actually made sure that there IS no problem anymore.

No-one likes a momma's boy, but (exceptional cases excluded) being a momma's boy is a choice isn't it? Easily solved by moving the hell out of that basement.
 

Lieju

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blackrave said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
ForgottenPr0digy said:
Joke answer:maybe they do that protect the women from getting bullied/raped/sexual harassed by the male players?
Ummm...You do know that the bullying and sexual harassment part DOES happen, right?

Kind of tasteless "joke" answer there.
I fail to understand why women don't trash talk back
You know, talking about small penis size and overcompensation
Mentioning him being mommas boy, whiny and annoying
Stuff like that- it can't be that hard to figure out ways to insult and humiliate back.
From my experience women are excellent at emotional violence, and trash talking isn't anything more than emotional violence.
Why should there be emotional violence at all?
Besides, those examples of what you consider 'trash talking' women should answer with sort of shows the problem:
For a heterosexual man suggesting they have 'unmanly, non-heterosexual' qualities is offensive.
For a woman or someone who is gay it's their gender or sexuality itself that's a source for trash talk.

There are definitely areas (like professional gaming) where there shouldn't be emotional violence.

Then there are situations where 'trash talk' can be appropriate, but not everything you say is equally sexist/racist/homophobic.

This is something I have run into.

If I, as a woman, say something about the playing style of the opponent, I'm going to get back insults about how I have tits or something.

And then I'm not supposed to complain about that, because 'I did that too', except that my comments were not sexist and had nothing to do with the gender of the person who sucks at the game.
 

Dr. Doomsduck

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ForgottenPr0digy said:
Dr. Doomsduck said:
ForgottenPr0digy said:
Dr. Doomsduck said:
ForgottenPr0digy said:
Joke answer:maybe they do that protect the women from getting bullied/raped/sexual harassed by the male players? The male team could try to rape the female team before the match?

real answer:But in the end I think they do this because in real life men and women have to play separated from each other so they do the same in e sports
I fail to see how this is a joke...

or a real answer.
Its a joke because no one would rape a another team for a advantage

Zachary Amaranth said:
ForgottenPr0digy said:
Joke answer:maybe they do that protect the women from getting bullied/raped/sexual harassed by the male players?
Ummm...You do know that the bullying and sexual harassment part DOES happen, right?

Kind of tasteless "joke" answer there.
true it does but most women can handle/ignore it and prove that trashtalking doesn't make you a better player it just shows how shitty of a player you are.

(the internet is full of tasteless jokes)
And people wonder why we want a league of our own...

Listen sweetheart, I'm gonna go and guess that you're a white male, ranging between the age of 13 - 30 and that you've never even taken a moment to envision the horror that is rape, the dehumanisation of sexual harrasment and the ongoing rape culture that still exists everywhere on earth.

Basically, as long as women are accused of provoking rape in courts, there will never be a funny sexual harrasment joke. As long as our gender gives us a negative view on society, you don't get to make those jokes. Speaking of Rape: there was an article here a couple of months ago called the R-word. I suggest you read that, then picture it happening to you and THEN think about that thick skin people are supposed to have.

Just, drill that in your thick skull mkay, and realize that it really isn't up to you to decide what's okay when you're not the one duped by it.
this reminds me of Tosh.0 joke about rape a few months back.That turned really ugly fast. But unlike that thread I'll at least admit my joke was terrible and dumb but it was going to be said might as well get it out before someone actually takes it seriously.
Good. Thank you for admitting that, but something like this is always going to be taken seriously, as it should. So how 'bout the next time, you verbally smack the guy who starts the sexism, instead of me?
 

Kopikatsu

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Chemical Alia said:
Kopikatsu said:

Men are better in spatial coordination and have a better sense of direction (usually!). They excel in math and are great at interpreting three-dimensional objects. They have a better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. They have poor peripheral vision but better sight in bright light and a better sense of perspective.
Since they use one side of their brain more than the other, they tend to use the left side for verbal reasoning and the right for visual and emotional activities (if they are right handed).

Source: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/jakabovics/mf2.html

Emphasis mine.
That theory does does sure seem interesting and relevant to a top down orthographic game played on a monitor that displays flat 2d images! This would also explain my shittiness at 3d modeling, what was I thinking with that pea brain of mine. I can't make heads or tails of what I see!

But anyway, it doesn't seem necessary, and it's not something I would choose to participate in unless it was a more casual setting just for fun (I tend to be competitive and I don't like to feel patronized) and to make women feel more welcome to playing the game. Don't really see what the big deal is, though.
You're taking offense where there is none to be had. Men and women are biologically different, although one gender isn't inherently superior to the other in a general sense.

Hm...well, I suppose that isn't true any longer, considering that the method for creating synthetic human sperm was discovered back in '09, which makes men very...expendable.

But returning to the topic at hand...
Spatial coordination, sense of direction, math, perspective, and hand-eye coordination are all pretty important for playing any MOBA, but especially one like DOTA 2.

This is why I stick to strategy games with tight stories, like everything that Nippon Ichi makes.
Of course, men being better at these things in the end isn't a foregone conclusion...but that doesn't really matter, because the innate differences exist. My point was that women's gaming leagues exist for the same reason that they separate the genders in other sports. They're fundamentally different.
 

Dr. Doomsduck

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Lieju said:
blackrave said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
ForgottenPr0digy said:
Joke answer:maybe they do that protect the women from getting bullied/raped/sexual harassed by the male players?
Ummm...You do know that the bullying and sexual harassment part DOES happen, right?

Kind of tasteless "joke" answer there.
I fail to understand why women don't trash talk back
You know, talking about small penis size and overcompensation
Mentioning him being mommas boy, whiny and annoying
Stuff like that- it can't be that hard to figure out ways to insult and humiliate back.
From my experience women are excellent at emotional violence, and trash talking isn't anything more than emotional violence.
Why should there be emotional violence at all?
Besides, those examples of what you consider 'trash talking' women should answer with sort of shows the problem:
For a heterosexual man suggesting they have 'unmanly, non-heterosexual' qualities is offensive.
For a woman or someone who is gay it's their gender or sexuality itself that's a source for trash talk.

There are definitely areas (like professional gaming) where there shouldn't be emotional violence.

Then there are situations where 'trash talk' can be appropriate, but not everything you say is equally sexist/racist/homophobic.

This is something I have run into.

If I, as a woman, say something about the playing style of the opponent, I'm going to get back insults about how I have tits or something.

And then I'm not supposed to complain about that, because 'I did that too', except that my comments were not sexist and had nothing to do with the gender of the person who sucks at the game.
It's the difference between singling someone out for being being born female, or insulting someone's skills at a computergame. The first, we can't change, the second, we definitely can.
 

LordLundar

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Why is there women only tournaments? To attract women gamers.

Why do they want to attract women gamers? Because women gamers are openly excluded for being women.

Remember the Cross assault fiasco? Not only is that situation WAY too common but the defense of such statements and actions are just as frequent. Look at these very forums. Way too many posters pull the "you're a woman? Get in the kitchen where you belong" statement as well as similar one and defend it by saying it's "all in good fun".

The separate tournaments/divisions are not to exclude male players, they're to stop the disgusting harassment of female players for no other reason then their genitalia.
 

rbstewart7263

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Dr. Doomsduck said:
rbstewart7263 said:
blackrave said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
ForgottenPr0digy said:
Joke answer:maybe they do that protect the women from getting bullied/raped/sexual harassed by the male players?
Ummm...You do know that the bullying and sexual harassment part DOES happen, right?

Kind of tasteless "joke" answer there.
I fail to understand why women don't trash talk back
You know, talking about small penis size and overcompensation
Mentioning him being mommas boy, whiny and annoying
Stuff like that- it can't be that hard to figure out ways to insult and humiliate back.
From my experience women are excellent at emotional violence, and trash talking isn't anything more than emotional violence.
aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnddddddd THIS! Id rather be equal in the sense that I can trash talk a woman and she can trash talk me back! thats much more in the spirit of competitive gaming than, " lets all be nicey nice and make her feel welcome"

That said I do believe you should know the person first. This may come as a shock but there are plenty of girls who laugh there ass off at sexist jokes and can dish it out.

But I think this what happens when we confuse a "difference in rights and privelege" and whats simply one person having a thicker skin than the other.
I trashtalk every one of my male friends when we're gaming, and obviously there are sexist jokes happening there, but they know me, and I'm not being singled out for being a girl, whereas that chick in the Tekken tournament was picked on because she was different from the others, by her own team even! The question is, are you trashtalking me because I'm a girl, or because I am a person competing.
For me because you are a person. The labels of sex and race are only applied as satire. And your right that guy didnt know when to stop. though watching the video the girl wasnt giving strong enough hints(at least as far in as i watched which was like halfway) smaling and half joking like but yeah I think you and I agree on this.

In general I like to get to know someone first and respect differences. on the whole I do prefer a girl that can trash talk over one that cannot but thats me.
 

blackrave

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Lieju said:
Why should there be emotional violence at all?
Besides, those examples of what you consider 'trash talking' women should answer with sort of shows the problem:
For a heterosexual man suggesting they have 'unmanly, non-heterosexual' qualities is offensive.
For a woman or someone who is gay it's their gender or sexuality itself that's a source for trash talk.

There are definitely areas (like professional gaming) where there shouldn't be emotional violence.

Then there are situations where 'trash talk' can be appropriate, but not everything you say is equally sexist/racist/homophobic.

This is something I have run into.

If I, as a woman, say something about the playing style of the opponent, I'm going to get back insults about how I have tits or something.

And then I'm not supposed to complain about that, because 'I did that too', except that my comments were not sexist and had nothing to do with the gender of the person who sucks at the game.
Because trash talking is just one of the ways you can win.
Anything that ensures that your opponent switches off his/her brain is acceptable.
For example, amongst males hitting between legs is commonly considered "dirty" move, but it is viable option to fight someone who is much more stronger than you are.
Similarly with trash talking- if I deal with someone who portrays obvious lack of skills or is new to the game, I will just lough at him/her. But if I am thrown against more experienced player I will do and say everything to ensure my victory.
Dirty but not unacceptable.

On the other hand there are those who trash talk without any particular reason.
I don't understand these players.

P.S. And those examples were bad, I agree, but you need to hit where you can.
 

rbstewart7263

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Dr. Doomsduck said:
rbstewart7263 said:
Dr. Doomsduck said:
blackrave said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
ForgottenPr0digy said:
Joke answer:maybe they do that protect the women from getting bullied/raped/sexual harassed by the male players?
Ummm...You do know that the bullying and sexual harassment part DOES happen, right?

Kind of tasteless "joke" answer there.
I fail to understand why women don't trash talk back
You know, talking about small penis size and overcompensation
Mentioning him being mommas boy, whiny and annoying
Stuff like that- it can't be that hard to figure out ways to insult and humiliate back.
From my experience women are excellent at emotional violence, and trash talking isn't anything more than emotional violence.
Because that kind of talk doesn't change the fact that 91% of all rapes are inflicted upon women and only 1% is done by them. It doesn't change the fact that, in this society, a man has a better chance of getting a job when he applies.

You cannot compare a case of racism or sexism to general trashtalk, because being a 'momma's boy' isn't a structural problem in modern society that can be tracked back to the stone age. By enforcing the 'fun' in rape and sexual harrasement, you're enforcing stereotypes that not hurt us as a person, but our perceived inferiority to men.

And believe you me, when a guy start yelling that kind of shit at me, I always get the tendency to make neutering jokes, but, again, that would just enforce his idea that he is allowed to make jokes about it.
I would check where your statistics come from alot of second wave fems and fems who hold key positions of power would and have admitted to fudging statistics as to create an air of ongoing conspiracy against women.

Like that 90 percent of rapes go unreported thing? Turns out the true number of reported rapes is around 55 percent. When asked about the disparity the ladies who issued the test simply said that "the numbers dont matter" and they do when trying to figure out for example if we are a violence loving rape culture or simply a culture with a few bad apples.

that said our judicial system does not favor rape victims at all and I cant for the life of me figure out why.

http://www.freewebs.com/feminism-evaluated/

and people hate men that live with mom???
Alright, you got me there, this was the result of a quick'n'lazy wikipedia search *goes looking for the actual source* it was the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics in 1997.

The numbers definitely matter, but I think it's a little too easy to say, well, we acknowledge that there was a sexist problem in the past, but now that we've admitted it, the problem is solved. If you ask me, if half of the rapes go unnoticed, that's still way too much.

So yeah, things are definitely improving, but let's not stagnate until we've actually made sure that there IS no problem anymore.

No-one likes a momma's boy, but (exceptional cases excluded) being a momma's boy is a choice isn't it? Easily solved by moving the hell out of that basement.
;) lol likes that last comment.lmao
 

Dr. Doomsduck

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Kopikatsu said:
Chemical Alia said:
Kopikatsu said:

Men are better in spatial coordination and have a better sense of direction (usually!). They excel in math and are great at interpreting three-dimensional objects. They have a better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. They have poor peripheral vision but better sight in bright light and a better sense of perspective.
Since they use one side of their brain more than the other, they tend to use the left side for verbal reasoning and the right for visual and emotional activities (if they are right handed).

Source: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/jakabovics/mf2.html

Emphasis mine.
That theory does does sure seem interesting and relevant to a top down orthographic game played on a monitor that displays flat 2d images! This would also explain my shittiness at 3d modeling, what was I thinking with that pea brain of mine. I can't make heads or tails of what I see!

But anyway, it doesn't seem necessary, and it's not something I would choose to participate in unless it was a more casual setting just for fun (I tend to be competitive and I don't like to feel patronized) and to make women feel more welcome to playing the game. Don't really see what the big deal is, though.
You're taking offense where there is none to be had. Men and women are biologically different, although one gender isn't inherently superior to the other in a general sense.

Hm...well, I suppose that isn't true any longer, considering that the method for creating synthetic human sperm was discovered back in '09, which makes men very...expendable.

But returning to the topic at hand...
Spatial coordination, sense of direction, math, perspective, and hand-eye coordination are all pretty important for playing any MOBA, but especially one like DOTA 2.

This is why I stick to strategy games with tight stories, like everything that Nippon Ichi makes.
Of course, men being better at these things in the end isn't a foregone conclusion...but that doesn't really matter, because the innate differences exist. My point was that women's gaming leagues exist for the same reason that they separate the genders in other sports. They're fundamentally different.
Although in horse riding, the men and women are placed together because it's a matter of coordination, perspective and collaboration, rather than physical attributes, which are ascribed to the horse.

I really don't see how horse riding and gaming are fundamentally different, other than the fact that you need some physical strenght to stay on the animal.
 

Aaron Sylvester

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Men and women are separated in chess tournaments as well, because if the best women played against the best men...well, lets not even go there.

It's all for the sake of fairness and I'm fine with that. Women should compete against women, men against men. Anyone who says that is "sexist" is ironically sexist themselves for failing to understand the difference between the genders extends further than just dangly bits.
 

Dr. Doomsduck

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blackrave said:
Lieju said:
Why should there be emotional violence at all?
Besides, those examples of what you consider 'trash talking' women should answer with sort of shows the problem:
For a heterosexual man suggesting they have 'unmanly, non-heterosexual' qualities is offensive.
For a woman or someone who is gay it's their gender or sexuality itself that's a source for trash talk.

There are definitely areas (like professional gaming) where there shouldn't be emotional violence.

Then there are situations where 'trash talk' can be appropriate, but not everything you say is equally sexist/racist/homophobic.

This is something I have run into.

If I, as a woman, say something about the playing style of the opponent, I'm going to get back insults about how I have tits or something.

And then I'm not supposed to complain about that, because 'I did that too', except that my comments were not sexist and had nothing to do with the gender of the person who sucks at the game.
Because trash talking is just one of the ways you can win.
Anything that ensures that your opponent switches off his/her brain is acceptable.
For example, amongst males hitting between legs is commonly considered "dirty" move, but it is viable option to fight someone who is much more stronger than you are.
Similarly with trash talking- if I deal with someone who portrays obvious lack of skills or is new to the game, I will just lough at him/her. But if I am thrown against more experienced player I will do and say everything to ensure my victory.
Dirty but not unacceptable.

On the other hand there are those who trash talk without any particular reason.
I don't understand these players.
Name me one martial arts where hitting a guy in the nuggets is an acceptable strategy.
 

rbstewart7263

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Kopikatsu said:
Chemical Alia said:
Kopikatsu said:

Men are better in spatial coordination and have a better sense of direction (usually!). They excel in math and are great at interpreting three-dimensional objects. They have a better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. They have poor peripheral vision but better sight in bright light and a better sense of perspective.
Since they use one side of their brain more than the other, they tend to use the left side for verbal reasoning and the right for visual and emotional activities (if they are right handed).

Source: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/jakabovics/mf2.html

Emphasis mine.
That theory does does sure seem interesting and relevant to a top down orthographic game played on a monitor that displays flat 2d images! This would also explain my shittiness at 3d modeling, what was I thinking with that pea brain of mine. I can't make heads or tails of what I see!

But anyway, it doesn't seem necessary, and it's not something I would choose to participate in unless it was a more casual setting just for fun (I tend to be competitive and I don't like to feel patronized) and to make women feel more welcome to playing the game. Don't really see what the big deal is, though.
You're taking offense where there is none to be had. Men and women are biologically different, although one gender isn't inherently superior to the other in a general sense.

Hm...well, I suppose that isn't true any longer, considering that the method for creating synthetic human sperm was discovered back in '09, which makes men very...expendable.

But returning to the topic at hand...
Spatial coordination, sense of direction, math, perspective, and hand-eye coordination are all pretty important for playing any MOBA, but especially one like DOTA 2.

This is why I stick to strategy games with tight stories, like everything that Nippon Ichi makes.
Of course, men being better at these things in the end isn't a foregone conclusion...but that doesn't really matter, because the innate differences exist. My point was that women's gaming leagues exist for the same reason that they separate the genders in other sports. They're fundamentally different.

I was almost scared by the artificial sperm thing. except that as we all know like with organic food vs gmo food that nothing compares to the real thing which is my only saving grace lol
 

cerebus23

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Used to love the nba when players could trash talk, especially when they trash talked michael jordan. The good days of basketball. bird, magic, barkley, ewing, stockton, malone, miller, starks...

gods now you got me thinking how sucktacular the NBA is now days.

trash talking is an art form however, having played alot of ball over the years, i seen both great talkers and people that should just keep their fool mouths shut, and most of the people online fall into the latter.

catachia please stop the bk ads i not eaten at bk in about 20 years and there is good reasons for that. ;p
 

cerebus23

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Dr. Doomsduck said:
blackrave said:
Lieju said:
Why should there be emotional violence at all?
Besides, those examples of what you consider 'trash talking' women should answer with sort of shows the problem:
For a heterosexual man suggesting they have 'unmanly, non-heterosexual' qualities is offensive.
For a woman or someone who is gay it's their gender or sexuality itself that's a source for trash talk.

There are definitely areas (like professional gaming) where there shouldn't be emotional violence.

Then there are situations where 'trash talk' can be appropriate, but not everything you say is equally sexist/racist/homophobic.

This is something I have run into.

If I, as a woman, say something about the playing style of the opponent, I'm going to get back insults about how I have tits or something.

And then I'm not supposed to complain about that, because 'I did that too', except that my comments were not sexist and had nothing to do with the gender of the person who sucks at the game.
Because trash talking is just one of the ways you can win.
Anything that ensures that your opponent switches off his/her brain is acceptable.
For example, amongst males hitting between legs is commonly considered "dirty" move, but it is viable option to fight someone who is much more stronger than you are.
Similarly with trash talking- if I deal with someone who portrays obvious lack of skills or is new to the game, I will just lough at him/her. But if I am thrown against more experienced player I will do and say everything to ensure my victory.
Dirty but not unacceptable.

On the other hand there are those who trash talk without any particular reason.
I don't understand these players.
Name me one martial arts where hitting a guy in the nuggets is an acceptable strategy.

Oh i am sorry, the real martial arts where you are fighting for your life.

Or to put it another way someone once said.

Ask Miyamoto Musashi what code of conduct he lived/fought by and he probably would have died laughing.

There is no comparison to martial arts back in the day to the ones today, they are disneyfied and style over substance. So i find that example totally silly.
 

Dr. Doomsduck

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Aaron Sylvester said:
Men and women are separated in chess tournaments as well, because if the best women played against the best men...well, lets not even go there.

It's all for the sake of fairness and I'm fine with that. Women should compete against women, men against men. Anyone who says that is "sexist" is ironically sexist themselves for failing to understand the difference between the genders extends further than just dangly bits.
Except in horse riding, men and women are placed together and more often than not, it's the women winning through a mix of perspective, collaboration and coordination. So...why not?

Personally, I think that sports should have a mixed competition, where the best of both genders can participate, maybe the men will prove better, and maybe a few women will actually challenge the men to try different strategies.

That is not to say we should just cancel all separated leagues, just, maybe there should be room for both.