Arma 3 "Spies" Hope For Appeal

[Karloff]

Arma 3 "Spies" Hope For Appeal

Greek intelligence agents apparently had a hand in the Bohemia Interactive "spies" case.

Ivan Buchta and Martin Pezlar, the two Bohemia Interactive developers the Greek government has accused of espionage [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/119532-Greece-Busts-Game-Dev-Spies], have perhaps only two weeks to go before their appeal is heard. So far, there has been no trial, though the developers have been imprisoned for 122 days and counting.

The two were arrested in September 2012. The Greek government accused them of deliberately entering an area they knew was off-limits, and taking video footage of military installations. The developers had been part of the Arma 3 team, working on a military simulator set on a fictional version of the Greek island Lemnos. Shortly after their arrest, Bohemia Interactive described the incident as an "unfortunate and deep misunderstanding." [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/119625-Conditions-Are-Tough-For-Game-Dev-Spies]

In an interesting twist, Greek newspaper Kathimerini [http://www.helpivanmartin.org/2012/12/espionage-and-a-video-game-in-military-camps-on-lemnos/] alleges that the two were monitored from their arrival by the Greek Ethniki Ypiresia Pliroforion (EYP), the national intelligence service. The EYP told local law where Buchta and Pezlar were staying, and when they planned to leave. From the moment they arrived, claims Kathimerini, Buchta and Pezlar were under EYP surveillance. If true, this suggests that the Greeks knew full well who they were dealing with, when the game developers were busted.

Source: helpivanmartin.org [http://www.helpivanmartin.org/]


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[BrotherRool]

I don't think anyones said this. But is it ridiculous that a game developer is a spy? It would be a decent cover story to film footage in a location of choice. It doesn't have to be the whole company or anything, just one or two influential guys.

I still think its probably not true. But it's not so ridiculous, especially if the intelligence services were already involved, that I'd demand they be let go without trial (although a trial would be nice =D). And with intelligence theres always a chance that they know more than they're publicising

 

[Dr Jones]

I don't think anyones said this. But is it ridiculous that a game developer is a spy? It would be a decent cover story to film footage in a location of choice. It doesn't have to be the whole company or anything, just one or two influential guys.

It's a ridiculously good cover, I mean look at the fans that are fighting for them. But then I just think about the odds that they actually are spies and I seriously doubt it. But you're right, their cover is more than perfect. It's probably too good to be true, I don't think the Czech government would be able to think it over that thoroughly.

But I would chuckle if they came home and turned out to be spies.

I still support them though, spies or not I don't find there's enough evidence against them.

 

[BrotherRool]

It's a ridiculously good cover, I mean look at the fans that are fighting for them. But then I just think about the odds that they actually are spies and I seriously doubt it. But you're right, their cover is more than perfect. It's probably too good to be true, I don't think the Czech government would be able to think it over that thoroughly.

But I would chuckle if they came home and turned out to be spies.

I still support them though, spies or not I don't find there's enough evidence against them.

It's definitely almost too good to be true, but then previous spies have turned out to be, the leader of British intelligence and the guy Germany hired to set up a spy network in Britain. So its probably less good than that =D

 

[Dr Jones]

It's definitely almost too good to be true, but then previous spies have turned out to be, the leader of British intelligence and the guy Germany hired to set up a spy network in Britain. So its probably less good than that =D

I actually think this is an even better cover than almost anything ever seen. It's fucking video-game developers, I mean, just think about how far away from spy-stuff they are. It's really a lot like the series "Chuck" (which is about a tech-support guy becoming a spy after an accident). The British intelligence guy at least had something to do with the military before. These guys have fans fighting for them, it's perfect.

If they really are spies I bet the Czech government is just clapping their hands over the reaction now : p

 

[Fireprufe15]

At least they weren't devs on splinter cell. They'd really be screwed then...

 

[Vhite]

Arma 4 story (if these games have story, never played one) will have Greece as bad guys, looking worse than nazies.

 

[meromero]

It's sad to see this happen but people who defend the developers saying that they should be free and that the Greek government should have arrested them are simply wrong. Taking pictures in another country of what u know is a military base with the objective of gathering substantial information about the base (for later reproduction in the game in this case) is the very definition of espionage. Sure WE know they are not spies, but being a game developer DOES NOT give you immunity to the law in another country. Any non-gaming person will agree that the f*cked up really bad wherever they are spies or not

 

[Saulkar]

Right now I cannot help but feel that Greece is the grinning sociopath saying: "look at what a good job I am doing"; remaining completely oblivious to the ripe vegetables the public is throwing at its face. If Greece (its government) had any credibility left after allowing fascists into the government it was lost this September.

 

[Saulkar]

It's sad to see this happen but people who defend the developers saying that they should be free and that the Greek government should have arrested them are simply wrong. Taking pictures in another country of what u know is a military base with the objective of gathering substantial information about the base (for later reproduction in the game in this case) is the very definition of espionage. Sure WE know they are not spies, but being a game developer DOES NOT give you immunity to the law in another country. Any non-gaming person will agree that the f*cked up really bad wherever they are spies or not

Oh, its your kind again, hi.

Instead of going through the process of recreating this argument again I will copy and past what has already been said time and time and time and time again.

Snooping around a foreign country's military base should definitely be punished, regardless of your reasons for doing so. However, 20 years is absolutely ridiculous for this situation.

apparently their snooping was filming footage on the way from the hotel back to the airport to go back home. there was apparently a military hanger in the background at the airport. they werent even there on official business. according to whats been released, they liked the place from their research and decided to go on holiday

the local government there has a real grudge against bohemia interactive for basing the next game on their island. apparently they got pissed that it will be depicted as a warzone..

They got pissed at a company building a model of a strategically important island by a company that sells military training.

You do realise that the recreation of the island is far removed from reality and thus a 1 to 1 recreation? You could not use it anymore to plan an invasion of the island than GTAIV to navigate New York.

So why did they spend money on sending people to to photograph the island then? Just because the model in the game isn't a 1 to 1 recreation does not mean they can't use the information to build one. The model has one very obvious customer in Turkey, who the Greeks have been war with for the most of the last 1000 years. Why even use that Greek island out of the 100s that Greece has? Why choose one of the most strategically important islands as opposed to Eubeoa which has no importance what so ever?

Why send photographers and artists to Venezuela for the film UP? Why send photographers and artists to Scotland for the film Brave? Why send photographers and artists around Washington D.C. for Fallout 3? Inspiration.

I can't use any of the information from those two films and game to plan... anything. The island in the game does not have the same scale, the military installations are completely, COMPLETELY re-imagined and not even in the same places given that they are all set up by NATO and Iran fifteen to twenty years from now in an alternative timeline.

The one airport in the game that exists today is completely visible on Google-maps and does not look exactly the same as the in game trailers. Hell most of the structures in the game despite sharing architecture do not look the same (most notably military based ones).

The roads in the game do not completely line up/exist at all with the real thing despite the availability of Google-maps. Furthermore the towns and city(ies) are almost completely re-imagined with a skewed layout.

Lastly the team that develops the military contracted simulators and the team that develops the games are completely separate with no overlap. They have two completely different pursuits/game engine derivatives.

P.S. The reason they chose Limnos is because it does indeed have real life relevance but the fact that anything the game can do, you can do infinitely better with Google maps. Turkey at any time can download heightmaps and satellite images of Limnos and recreate an even more accurate version of Limnos in Arma 2 before Arma 3 is even released.

They got pissed at a company building a model of a strategically important island by a company that sells military training.

What, you mean this island?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/islandm.jpg/]

With this 'military' base?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/airporte.jpg/]

And these bomber targets?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/airplanes.jpg/]

Yeah. Bullshit charges from a bullshit country. Australia is just as likely to be invaded in this day and age, and also has a combined military/regular airport. Want me to go take my DSLR and get some pictures of the tail numbers on some F/A-18s?
I can, you know. It's because my government aren't fucking tards and know anybody who goes to war can afford to get some, you know, satellite images or perhaps some long range photos from a nearby mountain. Or a small child with a pen (crayon) camera.

Here, have a picture of our hangers in incredibly high detail:

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/hiluxh.jpg/]

Do you know why we don't care about pictures of our bases?
Because we have these things called 'radar' and 'SAM's and because any retard can find satellite images of 99.9% of the earth for free, let alone buying them from companies who don't care if they're not meant to take pictures of certain areas. Why the hell would you send 2 random guys with a video camera to get your information? What purpose could that serve, to then leave the incriminating files un-encrypted on their video camera instead of swallowing a MicroSD card or 5?

No. Apparently common sense goes out the window when paranoid idiots are in power. This is nothing but scapegoating so the government LOOKS like they're actually doing something, yet it's backfired because now the whole world is going to search for this mythical air base and suddenly people who got back from holiday are going to go 'Hey! I have a pic of that place! Imma put it on facebook!'.

Chew on that for a while, don't choke.

 

[meromero]

Chew on that for a while, don't choke.

Oh, its your kind again, hi.

ok, look espionage is illegal....i don't care where u live it IS illegal. And that is what this guys did regardless of them being or not spies. Visiting a country and taking unauthorized pictures of military IS espionage. Sure you can prove that u where just taking pictures of the landscape and the military base just appeared in 1 pictures without your intention. But his guys had the intention of gathering information about the base!

Against the argument "you can find it in google earth!!!" that is stupid as hell. So if i see a military base in the USA where they test prototype planes in any satellite image then i can simply go there and start taking pictures of the prototypes because "it's on satellite images!!!".....that's NOT how it works. Also if there are SOOOO good pictures in google earth then why don't just use those images?

The problems is not what they can do or will do with the pictures they took. The problem is that is illegal to take those pictures in the first place.

If i travel to Thailand for vacations and while trying to speak in public i unintentionally insult the king in some way. The police would arrest me and depending in the situation it might get very bad for me. You can be a very nice man but if u go to another country and do something that people KNOW it's illegal then u deserve to be prosecuted.

Finally calling a country "bullshit" just show your level of "superiority" you are the kind of guy who is ok that the USA can put military bases in any country and do what ever they want, but the other country has to ask permission to even check does bases and can get everything denied because they are not "Murica!!!!". Any country has it's right to have it's own laws and to punish crimes in the way they consider the best and if u don't like it then don't visit it.

P/d: sorry if my English is bad.

 

[meromero]

Chew on that for a while, don't choke.

Oh, its your kind again, hi.

ok, look espionage is illegal....i don't care where u live it IS illegal. And that is what this guys did regardless of them being or not spies. Visiting a country and taking unauthorized pictures of military IS espionage. Sure you can prove that u where just taking pictures of the landscape and the military base just appeared in 1 pictures without your intention. But his guys had the intention of gathering information about the base!

Against the argument "you can find it in google earth!!!" that is stupid as hell. So if i see a military base in the USA where they test prototype planes in any satellite image then i can simply go there and start taking pictures of the prototypes because "it's on satellite images!!!".....that's NOT how it works. Also if there are SOOOO good pictures in google earth then why don't just use those images?

The problems is not what they can do or will do with the pictures they took. The problem is that is illegal to take those pictures in the first place.

If i travel to Thailand for vacations and while trying to speak in public i unintentionally insult the king in some way. The police would arrest me and depending in the situation it might get very bad for me. You can be a very nice man but if u go to another country and do something that people KNOW it's illegal then u deserve to be prosecuted.

Finally calling a country "bullshit" just show your level of "superiority" you are the kind of guy who is ok that the USA can put military bases in any country and do what ever they want, but the other country has to ask permission to even check does bases and can get everything denied because they are not "Murica!!!!". Any country has it's right to have it's own laws and to punish crimes in the way they consider the best and if u don't like it then don't visit it.

P/d: sorry if my English is bad.

 

[Saulkar]

But his guys had the intention of gathering information about the base!

They were there on a vacation. They did not need anymore photo-reference, the whole map was already constructed and it was simply a matter of finishing the missions and updating the physics engine.

Against the argument "you can find it in google earth!!!" that is stupid as hell. So if i see a military base in the USA where they test prototype planes in any satellite image then i can simply go there and start taking pictures of the prototypes because "it's on satellite images!!!"

Of course you can't, Jesus Christ, that is why most military bases constructed near publicly accessible places are built in such a way that you cannot see shit that is important and bases that have secret shit going on are not anywhere near any public installations. Given that Greece is so anal about this I would not doubt they would have done the same thing unless the government is really that incompetent. They would have to access the base which would include making their way across a freaking public airport's tarmac without being spotted then against the wishes of guards, cross a barrier to be arrested on the spot. (the supposed initial charge that got them arrested in the first place)

Also if there are SOOOO good pictures in google earth then why don't just use those images?

This question is twofold and the first part I already answered in my first response and am baffled that you did not read it, at all. This is a game not a simulator. If you wanted a cold boring simulator you would use Google images and height maps from a map to get a perfect reconstruction. This is not a simulator, you want a living breathing world to have fun in and to get it right you need the inspiration that you cannot get by simply looking at pictures that you, yourself did not take on location. Refer back to my OP.

The problems is not what they can do or will do with the pictures they took. The problem is that is illegal to take those pictures in the first place.

Then why single them out of every other tourist who could have done the same thing. Given that it was a public area and if Greece was smart would have built their most important assets out of the public eye.

If i travel to Thailand for vacations and while trying to speak in public i unintentionally insult the king in some way. The police would arrest me and depending in the situation it might get very bad for me. You can be a very nice man but if u go to another country and do something that people KNOW it's illegal then u deserve to be prosecuted.

Incompatible comparisons. Two different actions that yield immediate short and long term results that differ. Furthermore taking extensive photographs of the island months and years before their arrest they would have had to be familiarised with local privacy laws before they did so to avoid this very situation. This is not an issue of ignorance and thus one has to question how these two who would have fully known the consequences and also known that the cons would have gargantuanly outweighed the pros of wandering into a military base and taking photos of it when they were never going to reconstruct any of the buildings or assets.

Finally calling a country "bullshit" just show your level of "superiority" you are the kind of guy who is ok that the USA can put military bases in any country and do what ever they want, but the other country has to ask permission to even check does bases and can get everything denied because they are not "Murica!!!!". Any country has it's right to have it's own laws and to punish crimes in the way they consider the best and if u don't like it then don't visit it.

Ladies and Gentlemen, here we have a perfect example of Ad Hominem and conjecture. First off I did not say any of that, if you read through everything I had posted you would have known I had quoted someone from another thread who said all of those things, not me and I did not edit it in anyway to avoid damaging any context. Second of all your attack on me is a baffling nonsensical sweeping generalisation. I take a certain stance and am immediately attributed with various negative connotations and ideologies that I gave absolutely nothing to indicate I had anything to do with. Feels a little like an example of no true Scotsman. Even though it was not directed at me.
P/d: sorry if my English is bad.[/quote]

P/d: sorry if my English is bad.

NP

Let me break it down.
1.They were in a public space where it was not explicitly illegal to take photos.
2.Important military installations while somewhat visible from said public space do not reveal enough about their nature to be credible threats.
3. Just because it was on Googlemaps indeed does not make it legal to film however like I said they were in a public space when they did it where it can be easily assumed that they were singled out of others in the area who are just as likely to do the same thing.
4.Greece revealed they had them pinned from the start upon their arrival and given their bone to pick with Bohemia Interactive and the current state of their countries affairs and past blunders I would not put it above them in the least to forge the part about them sneaking into the base.
5. They were not there for the explicit purpose of taking pictures of the base given that they were A. not there on business and B. all the bases are being built from the ground up in the imaginations of the developers. In fact the base was already complete months before their imprisonment.
Their appearance is barely if even remotely similar.
6. Your final statement is indicative of a strong background motivation in this argument coupled with not reading what I had to say properly and the logical fallacies you made in attacking me show a not very well though out statement. This coupled with complete ignorance of who I am yet coming to vastly fallacious conclusions show a willingness to make unfounded leaps in logic.

Maybe I am wrong, I can live with that. But until an independent investigation says otherwise, I hold the Greek government in contempt.

Given how this already played out do not expect to hear back from me as I cannot fathom how doing so would reach any desirable conclusion.

P.S. I am Canadian, not Murican and I believe each country can make its own laws as long as they do not violate the basic fundamental human rights.

 

[madster11]

Finally calling a country "bullshit" just show your level of "superiority" you are the kind of guy who is ok that the USA can put military bases in any country and do what ever they want, but the other country has to ask permission to even check does bases and can get everything denied because they are not "Murica!!!!". Any country has it's right to have it's own laws and to punish crimes in the way they consider the best and if u don't like it then don't visit it.

I'm Australian. Not American.
Going off on some weird US rant is pretty pointless. Especially since in the last thread we talked about what would happen if they did this thing in the US - the country with the NDAA and Gitmo - and the general consensus was that they'd have their memory cards confiscated and told to fuck off, maybe get fined a little.

 

[Saulkar]

Finally calling a country "bullshit" just show your level of "superiority" you are the kind of guy who is ok that the USA can put military bases in any country and do what ever they want, but the other country has to ask permission to even check does bases and can get everything denied because they are not "Murica!!!!". Any country has it's right to have it's own laws and to punish crimes in the way they consider the best and if u don't like it then don't visit it.

I'm Australian. Not American.
Going off on some weird US rant is pretty pointless. Especially since in the last thread we talked about what would happen if they did this thing in the US - the country with the NDAA and Gitmo - and the general consensus was that they'd have their memory cards confiscated and told to fuck off, maybe get fined a little.

Oh hi there. Sorry for stealing your comment and having it misinterpreted. I just found it one of the best examples of why this whole thing does not make any sense. If it makes you feel any better Angry Joe called you out by name in his Top 10 videogame controversies describing how nonsensical defending this whole blunder is.

Skip ahead to 26:40 as I cannot remember how to embed it such.