I thought leftists were all for people not being discriminated against because of their political views? It's ironic that they hate so virulently someone that they claim hates virulently.
Artist Quits Superman Book Over Orson Scott Card Furor
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
You have rights so long as those rights don't impede the rights of others.ChristopherT said:
This guy is actively working to impede the rights of homosexuals. I say let him go without work till he's living under a bridge.
But on the flip side to that... I still eat chickfila... So... who am I to talk.
The thing about art is that is without doubt a product of its creator. It is something of a snapshot of the creator's thought process, so trying to view the product separately of its creator isn't easy. In this case, people aren't liking the mind in question because of some rather outdated ideas expressed by said mind. Due to this I can't really see why one would try to separate the work from the creator. You can learn a lot about the creator just by examining their work.Twilight_guy said:
Depends on who is doing the discriminating. Government is not allowed to discriminate and deprive people of rights. The free market economy of product and ideas (of which both pro-equality and anti-gay participate) is allowed to behave as it wants. It just so happens pro-equality is starting to be a pretty popular and classy view, and less popular ideas are being boycotted.deth2munkies said:
Most people who view art with the artist don't want to give the artist money.Twilight_guy said:
You've got Phil Fish telling people that all Japanese games suck. And now people won't buy Fez.
You've got people refusing to watch Tom Cruise films because Tom Cruise tries shoving Scientology down everyones throats whenever he can.
The director of Assasins Creed 3 threw a tangent saying people were racist for liking Japanese games.
A lot of Madonnas ex fans hate her due to her divaish attitude. Same with Barbra Streisand.
It's a case by case basis.
Thats something i have bee thinking about resenlty. i have just finished listening to the enders game audio book, and i think it is a great book, it goes on for too long because it want to set a squeal which i know was planned before the book was written but it did take away from the book twist. i did not know about Card mass homophobia other wise im not sure if would have bought it but after finding out some of the parts of the book seem strange, with young boy sharing beds, kiss each other and being groomed and manipulated by old men. i not say Card is a peodofile or any such thing but is interesting when you take his ideals a religion into account. Card being a Mormon does make the whole ender being some kind of a profit at the end really weird.Twilight_guy said:
so in this case yeah know more about the writer did effect my reading of the novel, i tried to think of it as a separate entity but found that hard given the nature of the author.
from what i have read many of his books at least in the enders game series has a lot of religion in then (Card is a mormon which explains in part his homophobia) but the parallels between the one in the books and the real life religion im not sure aboutlord canti said:
He thinks my sister and her wife are despicable human beings who are not worthy of love or respect. So, fuck him.aba1 said:
he actively donates to lobbying groups seeking to have homosexuality criminalised. So, by giving him money, your indirectly giving those groups money. Some people would rather not give him money, and would like people to understand why they're not giving him money.lord canti said:
He publicly declares anti-gay sentiments, campaigns against gay marriage, and he supports and donates to organisations campaigning and lobbying to have being homosexual criminalised.Rogue 09 said:
Yes, he has his right to express his views, and and support these groups.
We all have a right to look at him doing so, and decide to point out what he is doing is morally wrong, and decide not to spend money on his products, and explain to people why we're not buying their products, and why we would like them not too either.
It's no longer mere "personal belief" when you're funding and performing public advocacy. Don't try to tell me that he's being punished for his "personal beliefs".
He has the right - which I fully support - to invest his own time and money into his advocacy. And I have the right to not help fund that, and to speak out against it, in my own turn.
And that's what we're talking about, here. There's no attempt to eliminate OSC's rights, just people exercising their own rights.
He has the right - which I fully support - to invest his own time and money into his advocacy. And I have the right to not help fund that, and to speak out against it, in my own turn.
And that's what we're talking about, here. There's no attempt to eliminate OSC's rights, just people exercising their own rights.
Being intolerant of someone's bigoted beliefs is not hypocritical. It is wrong to unfairly discriminate against others for things they have no say over. Gender, race, disabilities....these are uncontrollable things and punishing someone based on them is ignorant. But a person's choices....THAT is perfectly okay to persecute. Religion is a choice. Racism is a choice, and OSC being a homophobic douche-canoe is a fucking choice. And choices, opinions and beliefs are fair game to be shot down and the holder of those beliefs to be punished.
OSC made the choice to hold those beliefs, and so the consequences against him are perfectly fair.
OSC made the choice to hold those beliefs, and so the consequences against him are perfectly fair.
I think that "art" in whatever form (including all kinds of media, including videogames) is more just the depiction of what the artist sees than anything else, be it in reality or some kind of vision or other image. This also means that a piece of art is always a "part" of the artist, bound by the perspective and personality of the creator.Twilight_guy said:
So viewing art sepearately from the artist is like viewing a sentence out of context. I mean, forget about the whole "what did the artist try to say here" crap, because in most cases we cannot find out because said artist is dead, but ignoring the individual from who's perspective the art is made is really like removing all context altogether. [/pretentious artist rambling]
Having said that...god damn that guy is a bigot. And I actually once considerd reading Ender's Game. Well, not gonna do that now : D
Oh please don't misunderstand, I think OSC is quite wrong to campaign against gay rights.DVS BSTrD said:
I just find it interesting that, while most folks here are praising Sprouse for sticking to his guns by refusing to work on the project with OSC, those same folks are more than happy to condemn OSC for doing the same even though his opinions are unpopular.
It comes down to conflicts of ideology. I'd be willing to bet OSC's a hero or rallying icon on his side and Sprouse is viewed as a degenerate.
I suppose there's not much point to explaining this, but there you go.
Around the point you advocate revolution if the opposition to your beliefs steps into power, you're out of line. It's unfortunate that Card seems to have gotten to a point in his life where he doesn't perceive those who disagree with him as having the amount of depth he used to champion in fictional characters.
As far as trying to get him thrown off the job... I'm torn. There are people who have done spectacularly awful things in their personal lives who still created terrific works of art, literature, and music. I understand not wanting to support him as a commercial enterprise, and the quite reasonable feeling that part of the money you use to support that project indirectly goes to causes you despise. I wouldn't buy the issue (unfortunately, full disclosure would have me admit that I wasn't likely to do so anyway), but I can't really rally behind getting him taken off, either.
I applaud the artist for withdrawing and DC for supporting that decision, though.
As far as trying to get him thrown off the job... I'm torn. There are people who have done spectacularly awful things in their personal lives who still created terrific works of art, literature, and music. I understand not wanting to support him as a commercial enterprise, and the quite reasonable feeling that part of the money you use to support that project indirectly goes to causes you despise. I wouldn't buy the issue (unfortunately, full disclosure would have me admit that I wasn't likely to do so anyway), but I can't really rally behind getting him taken off, either.
I applaud the artist for withdrawing and DC for supporting that decision, though.
A person's personal beliefs are his or her own business. I don't agree with much of Orson Scott Card's work, but I'm also embarrassed by people who try and bully him and those associated with him into silence. Someone once said that the true test of "freedom of speech" is when you stand up for someone's views you hate and defend his or her right to be HEARD, even if you don't agree with what is said.
Beyond that, yeah, as already pointed out, nearly every bit of art to ever exist was created by people who held a personal belief somewhere down the line that people would largely object to. Does that mean the movies of Roman Polanski are less well-made because he's a rapist? Is Dragon Quest still not a good RPG because its composer is a Holocaust denier? Is Alan Moore not a great comic book writer, despite having extreme anarchist views, issues with women, and is nuttier than squirrel poop?
Orson Scott Card's views, from my reading, have never come through in his writing. He puts his personal views down when he takes up professional work, as a professional would do.
I've had to work on projects with Christians, Muslims, Atheists, men, women, Africans, Asians, Russians, Communists, gays, straights, recreational drug users, recovered alcoholics, married, single, and all manner of other types, together on projects where we put all that aside for the common good of the work we did.
If you look for anything, anywhere, you will find an opinion you disagree with. I disagreed with many of my co-workers. But I'm proud of the work we created, and its moronic to get upset at someone for doing something RIGHT. Orson Scott Card's a good writer, he truly is, and his personal views have no place a backlash against his art. If you wish to complain to him about his personal views, there's a time and place for that as well. But, well, other people are involved in the making of a comic, not just Orson Scott Card, and I'm not petty enough to throw everyone under the bus just because one person in a group holds a view I don't share.
Beyond that, yeah, as already pointed out, nearly every bit of art to ever exist was created by people who held a personal belief somewhere down the line that people would largely object to. Does that mean the movies of Roman Polanski are less well-made because he's a rapist? Is Dragon Quest still not a good RPG because its composer is a Holocaust denier? Is Alan Moore not a great comic book writer, despite having extreme anarchist views, issues with women, and is nuttier than squirrel poop?
Orson Scott Card's views, from my reading, have never come through in his writing. He puts his personal views down when he takes up professional work, as a professional would do.
I've had to work on projects with Christians, Muslims, Atheists, men, women, Africans, Asians, Russians, Communists, gays, straights, recreational drug users, recovered alcoholics, married, single, and all manner of other types, together on projects where we put all that aside for the common good of the work we did.
If you look for anything, anywhere, you will find an opinion you disagree with. I disagreed with many of my co-workers. But I'm proud of the work we created, and its moronic to get upset at someone for doing something RIGHT. Orson Scott Card's a good writer, he truly is, and his personal views have no place a backlash against his art. If you wish to complain to him about his personal views, there's a time and place for that as well. But, well, other people are involved in the making of a comic, not just Orson Scott Card, and I'm not petty enough to throw everyone under the bus just because one person in a group holds a view I don't share.
I can relate to this issue in a rather personal way. A few years ago I took over writing the videogame column for Mr. Card's online fiction magazine. I am also a long time fan of the Ender books, as in they inspired me to pursue writing At the time, I was unaware of Card's personal views regarding homosexuality and same marriage. Being a rather devoted proponent of legalization (I have a gay brother and LGBT friends) it definitely provided me a moment of pause. Would it be hypocritical of me to work for him?
After discussing it with my wife, my friends and thinking about it thoroughly myself, I opted to keep writing for his publication. My reasoning at the time was simply that, no matter where I was working, I would unavoidably wind up working for or with someone who held views that opposed my beliefs. Throwing a fit and quitting would serve no one. His beliefs wouldn't be changed at all.
To the contrary, I think when people throw fits like that all it does is strengthen the resolve of the person they're trying to shame. They just dig their trenches deeper whereas some common decency and basic personal respect (while less flashy) can go a long way toward reshaping someone's views of something. I have never personally met Mr. Card, but if I were to do so and the issue of gay marriage were to come up, I think I'd be doing myself and my cause much more good by explaining my views with grace and intelligence.
Similarly, as some have said, you sometimes do just have to separate the product from the creator. Mr. Card has his views but he also wrote an excellent series of books with a primary theme of empathy and understanding. There are countless other examples. Frank Miller is currently something of a racist fascist but in his early years he wrote one of the best Batman books ever. Richard Wagner was a bit of an anti-semite, but he also wrote some of the most influential operas and classical music in history (Ride of the Valkyries). I freaking love Conan the Barbarian, even if Robert E. Howard was a racist who injected those beliefs into his writing at times.
Great works rarely come from morally white places and if that's going to be your standard for enjoying something you might as well just hole up at home and like nothing.
After discussing it with my wife, my friends and thinking about it thoroughly myself, I opted to keep writing for his publication. My reasoning at the time was simply that, no matter where I was working, I would unavoidably wind up working for or with someone who held views that opposed my beliefs. Throwing a fit and quitting would serve no one. His beliefs wouldn't be changed at all.
To the contrary, I think when people throw fits like that all it does is strengthen the resolve of the person they're trying to shame. They just dig their trenches deeper whereas some common decency and basic personal respect (while less flashy) can go a long way toward reshaping someone's views of something. I have never personally met Mr. Card, but if I were to do so and the issue of gay marriage were to come up, I think I'd be doing myself and my cause much more good by explaining my views with grace and intelligence.
Similarly, as some have said, you sometimes do just have to separate the product from the creator. Mr. Card has his views but he also wrote an excellent series of books with a primary theme of empathy and understanding. There are countless other examples. Frank Miller is currently something of a racist fascist but in his early years he wrote one of the best Batman books ever. Richard Wagner was a bit of an anti-semite, but he also wrote some of the most influential operas and classical music in history (Ride of the Valkyries). I freaking love Conan the Barbarian, even if Robert E. Howard was a racist who injected those beliefs into his writing at times.
Great works rarely come from morally white places and if that's going to be your standard for enjoying something you might as well just hole up at home and like nothing.