Artist Quits Superman Book Over Orson Scott Card Furor

[lord canti]

I'm confused here yes the guy is a dick, but unless he is putting his beliefs in his work then people really don't need to be getting so upset about this. Can someone tell me if this guy puts his beliefs through his work?

he actively donates to lobbying groups seeking to have homosexuality criminalised. So, by giving him money, your indirectly giving those groups money. Some people would rather not give him money, and would like people to understand why they're not giving him money.

Oh ok then I can see why so many people have a problem with this guy. However I still think people are overreacting a bit to much,but hey people have as much right not to buy or read his stuff than he does spouting all his crap off.

 

[bananafishtoday]

Okay... I kind of need some clarification on this.

If all Card is doing is advocating against gay marriage... who cares? A lot of people are against gay marriage, and it has nothing to do with being a bigot. They're trying to preserve something that they hold as sacred, and believe that gay marriage will take away from that. Whether you agree with it or not doesn't matter. There is nothing bigoted about trying to hold onto the traditions of a religious or spiritual ritual.

Now, if he is slurring gays we get into a whole other issue. Then the man is a bigot, but doesn't make him a terrible human being. If he is committing or threatening violence against these groups, then we have a problem and I would be completely down with any sort of boycott against him.

You cannot punish someone for sharing their personal beliefs on an issue just because we disagree with it. The US Government isn't the only party who has to respect the amendments outlined in the constitution. We, as citizens, have an obligation to support every last one of them.

That doesn't mean that you can't disagree! However, you should use words to influence people to change. Using a mob punishment system is just as irresponsible as if the government were to lock up dissenters for speaking out.

1) This is not a "mob punishment system." The artist didn't want to associate himself with Card because Card is a hateful dick. DC stood by the artist because lots of people thing Card is a hateful dick, so it's a good PR move.

2) We do not have an obligation to treat or react to speech equally. A boycott is acceptable for any reason. When he says things like, "Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books?to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society?s regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens," we have the right to say things like, "Fuuuuuuuck you." The First Amendment protects speech from government censure, not public backlash.

I'd have much more sympathy for an average person who lost their shitty job due to a blog post or something. But Card is rich and famous. He uses his publicity to create a soapbox to stand on and spout hateful rhetoric, and he donates money he gets from things like this comic (if it ever gets off the ground) to hateful groups.

3) A boycott is not comparable to being jailed for political dissidence what are you even saying.

4) Opposition to marriage equality is bigotry. All the arguments being trotted out now are the same ones the anti-miscegenation crowd loved so much half a century ago. And if you're upset about a traditional religious ritual, complain to your church. Last I checked, they're the ones in charge of deciding what is sacred. The government's duty is to provide equality for citizens under the law.

 

[UNHchabo]

I for one, am not buying BioShock Infinite or SpecOps: The Line because I don't like what the games espouse. Pure and simple. The anti-Americanism there is as offensive to me as what Card says to some of you.

I played through SpecOps: The Line, and I didn't see any anti-Americanism in that game. For starters, the game tries not to push any particular viewpoint as being "right", and even if it did, "violence is sometimes the answer, but not always" isn't exactly anti-American.

 

[Saviordd1]

The man has an opinion, and people are losing their minds over it. We all have opinions that people don't agree with. It just seems to me that certain opinions are considered acceptable and others are not. He has no power to enforce his beliefs on others, no way to make people change their minds, no ability to influence anyone. If you don't like what he believes, don't buy his products. I for one, am not buying BioShock Infinite or SpecOps: The Line because I don't like what the games espouse. Pure and simple. The anti-Americanism there is as offensive to me as what Card says to some of you.

I'm just glad there are a few people on here that realize that once you start holding people's opinions against them, and discriminate against people for what they think, you're getting into increasingly sketchy territory.

The problem is his beliefs are against a whole group of innocent people.

If he was a nazi, or a white supremacist, people would still be getting in an uproar.

Being anti-gay isn't an opinion, its bigotry.

 

[PunkRex]

Im actually glad about the out come here (not that I was even slightly invested before hand so meh), from what I hear OSC is a massive c*nt but for some reason I can't agree with firing him for simply having an oppinion... sort of, AAARRRGGGHHH, I HATE THIS MORALLY GREY BULLSHIT! I can at least say good on the artist for being so classy about it and stepping back from such a scummy bastard.

I know its hypocritical to hate someone because they hate someone but I just don't care. If he has the right to go around writing essays about why homosexuality is wrong then I have the right to call him a c*nt.

 

[PunkRex]

I still find it sad that the person who wrote Speaker for the Dead would be so adamantly anti-gay.

Oh well. It takes all sorts.

Good on the artist sticking to his guns. It's too bad that OSC is seen as the bad-guy for sticking to his, but his is the less-popular firearm at the moment.

Because as long as it's his opinion, he can't actually be wrong now can he?

Oh please don't misunderstand, I think OSC is quite wrong to campaign against gay rights.

I just find it interesting that, while most folks here are praising Sprouse for sticking to his guns by refusing to work on the project with OSC, those same folks are more than happy to condemn OSC for doing the same even though his opinions are unpopular.

It comes down to conflicts of ideology. I'd be willing to bet OSC's a hero or rallying icon on his side and Sprouse is viewed as a degenerate.

I suppose there's not much point to explaining this, but there you go.

This is very true, although as someone who has hade many gay friends in the past the idea of someone attacking them just drives me mad. Im always telling myself theres two sides to every argument but its always different when you generally have some stakes (however minor) in said fight.

Ethics... s'all grey.

 

[Saviordd1]

I thought leftists were all for people not being discriminated against because of their political views? It's ironic that they hate so virulently someone that they claim hates virulently.

Don't bring political groups into it.

Beyond that, if someone hated an entire group of people for being who they are and you happened to be part of that group/supported that group wouldn't you be offended?

-snip-

Well...I care? I can't get married to someone I love because of people like him.

There's a wide gap between "protecting" something and holding an entire group of people back due to your bigotry.

And yes, it is bigotry.

 

[tautologico]

I'm confused here yes the guy is a dick, but unless he is putting his beliefs in his work then people really don't need to be getting so upset about this. Can someone tell me if this guy puts his beliefs through his work?

I'm confused here yes the guy is a dick, but unless he is putting his beliefs in his work then people really don't need to be getting so upset about this. Can someone tell me if this guy puts his beliefs through his work?

Directly? No.

I'm confused here yes the guy is a dick, but unless he is putting his beliefs in his work then people really don't need to be getting so upset about this. Can someone tell me if this guy puts his beliefs through his work?

from what i have read many of his books at least in the enders game series has a lot of religion in then (Card is a mormon which explains in part his homophobia) but the parallels between the one in the books and the real life religion im not sure about

Orson Scott Card's views, from my reading, have never come through in his writing. He puts his personal views down when he takes up professional work, as a professional would do.

Apparently, most people are not familiar with his more recent work. I also loved the Ender books when I read them. A few years ago I discovered he was anti-gay when I read about his remake of Hamlet. It's quite interesting:

And then there's the startling reveal at the end of the novella, in which we discover - spoiler alert - that Hamlet's father was gay, and that this made him a terrible king. And his ghost was actually a demonic liar that misled Hamlet as to his cause of death. Claudius didn't kill Hamlet's dad after all - instead, it was Horatio, who was taking revenge on Hamlet's dad for molesting him as a little boy. Hamlet's dad also molested Laertes, and Rosencrantz, and Guildenstern, and turned all four of them gay in the process. (Oh, and in the end, Hamlet goes to Hell for all the harm he's caused, where his gay dad will molest him for the rest of eternity.)

From this review [http://io9.com/5838157/orson-scott-cards-hamlet-not-as-good-as-shakespeares-version] on io9.

 

[Thistlehart]

Apparently, most people are not familiar with his more recent work. I also loved the Ender books when I read them. A few years ago I discovered he was anti-gay when I read about his remake of Hamlet. It's quite interesting:

That would be an adequate assessment. The last Card work I read was Xenocide. Not long after that I heard about his rather unfortunate attitude toward LGBTs due to the uproar over that side-scrolling action game he was involved in. The name of which I have long since forgotten.

Thanks for the link. I hadn't realized Card's views were so... poisoned. Poor deluded fellow.

 

[scotth266]

Is Alan Moore not a great comic book writer, despite having extreme anarchist views, issues with women, and is nuttier than squirrel poop?

Heh, I also brought up Alan Moore in the R&P forum thread about this same topic. Didn't know that he had issues with women though, I just saw him as kind of a jerk.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Makes me question how much the separation of artist and art exists. I've heard arguments for viewing art separately from artists and I've seen people linking artists and art. How is one supposed to related artists to art? How does one affect the other?

Oh look, the first intelligent post in the thread.

Look people, have you READ his work? it's phenomenal. And (as far as I've read) incredibly free of hateful content.

Before bawwwing about his being on the project, why don't you wait and see if his personal politics affect the story before calling for blood?

Yes, he's a religious dolt who believes incredibly stupid things. But so are most people. And until his personal beliefs affect his ability to tell a good story, people need to quit bitching.


*grumbles*

 

[thiosk]

Im of two minds about this sort of thing. His views are pretty old fashioned and way out of step with the way we're going as a society. On the other hand, political views and activism should be separate from your job. His politial affiliation and participation in government lobbying shouldn't have any effect on his standing in his place of employment (i know, its about the other artists stepping down, etc).

Regardless of how you feel about his anti-gay stance and such silliness, he's still a legend of science fiction. I feel like everyone should get one batshit crazy thing they get to prattle on about. For card, its gays. For me, its my demand for an unscientific complete moratorium on oceanic fishing for 5-10 years, a batshit crazy stance that will cause mass global starvation and numerous wars. WHATEVER, LET TEH FIHS RECOVAR

 

[Evil Smurf]

Even bigots need a job you know guys. He made a decision to hate gay people and he has the right to. What's the problem.

 

[saintdane05]

DC Comics has handed the keys to the ?Champion of the Oppressed? to a guy who has dedicated himself to oppress me, and my partner, and millions of people like us. It represents a fundamental misread of who the character is, and what he means.

It is dispiriting. It is wearying. It is also, finally, not for me.

One of the other nicknames that accrued to Superman right away ? that predates ?Man of Steel? by a good amount ? is ?The Man of Tomorrow.? And much of his early iconography bears a distinctive Socio-Realist, Diego Rivera vibe: a lot of burnished golden sunrises, eyes raised to the horizon, gazing into the future.

Because that?s where he lives, Superman. And that?s what he says to us: We can do better. We can be better, to ourselves, and to each other.

Hey, DC Comics? Be better.

 

[uncanny474]

There's a small part of all this that I do not understand. There are people who want Card fired? or not be allowed to work on Superman comics. There are people who want someone to not have a job because of his personal beliefs. I don't care how much of a dick head, asshole, bigot Card is, isn't that still discrimination against him or possible other -ations?

I'm confused here yes the guy is a dick, but unless he is putting his beliefs in his work then people really don't need to be getting so upset about this. Can someone tell me if this guy puts his beliefs through his work?

I think all of us here can agree that Card is a bigot, but are his personal opinions seriously the justification people present in order to boot him from writing a goddamn Superman comic?

Look, it's cool if people want to continuously harp on the guy for being narrow-minded (because it's only a matter of time before he agrees with us, right? /sarc), but if he's not writing his views into the comic, why is this such a huge issue? Perhaps I'm missing some info since this is the first I've heard about this.

I tried to get all the comments where people ask why it's a big deal.

I agree. It shouldn't be. But it's the same reason people boycott Chick-Fil-A. They're using the money you pay them (for comics and books in one case and for chicken in another) to "donate" to and help fund these anti-gay organizations.

I do sincerely hope that nobody's granted these organizations a tax exemption, though. It's like granting a tax exemption to the KKK.

 

[Preacher zer0]

Answering bigotry with bigotry makes everyone a bigot.

 

[xaszatm]

I think that people here are confused about the American First Amendment and "freedom of speech." Alright, I'm probably not the best person to talk about this (giving that I'm a bit unhinged) but I'll give it a try anyways.

Now, from what I can gather from the article (I can't access the USA website, something wrong?), OSC is writing the new Superman. People dislike OSC because of his views on gay marriage (me included) and are planning on boycotting the comic. Some people are even signing a petition demanding his removal. As a result of this, the artist for the superman comic had quit and DC supported that decision.

At no time is OSC's rights ever threatened. He does have a right to have opinions on the LQBT population. He also is in his rights to advocate and support his groups. HOWEVER, the public does in fact has a right to respond in any manner that doesn't result in direct violence (either verbal or physical) to OSC. Boycotting doesn't directly hurt him. It just makes it more likely that he will not be hired again by DC. Signing a petition also isn't hurting his rights. All a petition can do is show how many people agree with the petition. It is still up to DC whether or not to fire him. So, all responses on how his rights are being trampled upon are unfounded.

Also, DC's support on the artists leaving is very neutral. All DC is saying is that they will move the artist to a different job and take another artist for the superman comic. So yeah, most posts on this threads seem overreacting to me. Now we should focus on more important matters like Tropes vs. Women...wait, what's with the pitchforks and torches?

 

[JaredXE]

Answering bigotry with bigotry makes everyone a bigot.

Eh, maybe. But then again, the difference is that OSC is preaching intolerance against people for something they were born with. Speaking out against him and asking for boycotts are simply the consequences for his beliefs. He makes a concious choice to be an asshat, and I have every right to call him that, deny him my money and inform others of his asshattery so that they can deny him money too. He wants people to be denied rights based not on their choices or opinions, but rather the circumstances of their birth.

If he was speaking out against black people there would be none of this "answering bigotry with bigotry" shit.