(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

[Ryotknife]

Its like saying that women should have had more representatives in Congress and the Senate before they should have the right to vote.

considering that one woman vote is equal to one male vote, it is not quite the same. To top it off, there is an even split in population, both groups have the same power in representation (at least on paper).

In the gaming industry one "female vote" is STILL equal to one "male vote." in fact, there really is not much difference (metaphor wise). The problem is, there are fewer female voters than male voters, therefore the males get preferential treatment. While the men and women, as individuals, as just as relevant and important, as a group there is a large disparity in power.

If we treat both groups as equals in terms of power(without equal population), this would mean that a single women is far more important than a single man.

If both groups had equal population, they would have equal power, therefore they would HAVE to work together as both of their issues will be fully equal.

In fact, the political system and the status of gaming and gender are pretty much setup the same way, the big difference in the example is that women dont have access to the game industry version of lobbyists. lobbyists are how some smaller groups gain more power even though they do not have the numbers (like say the rich)

 

[Tippy]

As I have said before, you give a stunning lack of credit to males in the game industry. Just because you have no clue what an interesting female lead would be, doesn't mean someone else would not. In fact some have, and those games are, suprise suprise, interesting to males AND females.

And idiot does not need anything to quantify it.

Don't tell me I don't give credit to male developers. I'm a male gamer. I don't need to be told by a female that people of my gender have made the majority of the most brilliant and deep games of all time, I already know the overwhelming majority of developers are male, who else more likely to be behind all the good games? It was never even a question.

I'm saying when some developers DO go for over-sexualization as a selling point, feminists shouldn't be throwing stones at them, because the developers creation and they're still primarily MALE.

Haven't played the chainsaw game myself, but bayonetta wasn't offensive to me. Yes, it teased guys with revealing outfits, etc, but I found bayonetta herself to be far more complicated than the random brainless girls that get rescued from time to time. At least bayonetta had more intelligence than that.

That's good to hear, if there was one thing I enjoyed about Bayonetta it was the crazy fast gameplay.

But you know that "random brainless girls" part? That's what some females/feminists are taking great offense to. Also females characters in gaming often wearing revealing clothing, or just being a sex symbol (or a target of the "gaze") in general. That's what this issue is all about.

We're discussing why certain groups of women have suddenly started finding that certain games offend them, why they're trying to get it changed, the causes behind how and why the tropes emerged, the origins of gaming culture, the different kinds of communities, and where women fit in it, etc etc. If you have anything to discuss regarding that, I welcome it


captcha: Laser Beams. Oh god, ruuuuuun!

 

[JeffBergGold]

Everyone wants representation, if possible. Who cares if the development team is 70 percent male or more? Male can show equality in games too. Trust me, there are plenty of programmers and developers who could and have. Lets just have the teams picked out for the best talent, shall we?

They certainly have, there's a big list of games which don't discriminate gender and can be enjoyed by everyone. Look at my previous posts in this thread, I even mentioned several studios that have pumped out nothing but quality games for everyone.

But I was referring to the few games which DO discriminate a bit and tend to use female characters as sex symbols, or just objects needing recue, or whatever. Like Bayonetta. Or Lollipop Chainsaw. Why did these games suddenly start receiving hate after so many years of acceptance? Because feminists suddenly found gaming (not females gamers, feminists), a fresh new male-dominated target to whip out the megaphones and say "Look how they portray us! Men are evil! Blah blah blah" all the while forgetting that development teams are 90% male, the people those games are SPECIFICALLY AIMED at are 100% male, I don't see the problem.

If female developers were to create games where MEN are treated as the sex objects, I wouldn't give a flying hoot because that game isn't aimed at me. I know it isn't. It's obvious. I'm not interested and I don't care about that game, the target demographic is free to play it and dominate men and play out their fantasies all they like, it's none of my business.

Women shouldn't barge into strip clubs and yell at all the men to be ashamed of themselves, to stop staring at the girls and get out of there. And by "club" I don't mean the entire GAMING industry is one giant strip club (far from it), I just meant those specific games targeted at males. If some development studios want to go for the low-hanging fruit, leave them be!

On your other point, I don't want games to cater to either sex, male or female. Steroided super macho men are just as annoying as simpering, whiney, DDD women with the IQ similar to a chicken. Let's just have interesting characters and games, and not just interesting male leads. Interesting female leads too.

You don't get to choose who you want as a lead. You don't get to choose which characters get developed. You don't get to choose how the characters act out, and you don't get to choose who the game caters to. You don't tell an artist how to paint his painting, you don't tell an author what to write.
That is entirely the developer's choice and creation.

Most developers are male, surprise surprise, guess which kind of personality they know best?

I've done a bit of minor game development (just programming side), if you were to tell me "alright, make an interesting and deep female lead character" I wouldn't have the first clue where to start. I'm not goddamn female. And the only SOURCE of "what girls are like" I can find is in the media, often wrongly portrayed.
You know what I would end up making? A girl who likes shoe shopping, doing her hair and make-up when she's not kicking bad guys. Yup, I'm a typical male idiot. I can't fix that. I can't exactly just copy-paste my Jane Shepherd or Samus Aran, that's not very original.

But a female developer CAN fix that. Unfortunately most of them just aren't interested in developing games. Atleast, nowhere near as interested as males are. Game studios, programming universities and design classes haven't stuck a sign on their building saying "no women allowed, if you come in we'll rape you". There's just a jarring lack of women for some reason.

I don't believe that anyone should prove themselves in gaming unless they are in a competitive circuit. Ever heard of single player? I know for some people its all about the online multiplayer matches, but come on.

Also, I am a banker for a living. I do not do programming, nor will I just drop my career to satisfy your need for females to prove themselves and develop games. Funnily enough, I game with my friends, my relatives, and my fiance for the enjoyment of GAMING.

NOT TO PROVE MYSELF.

I have no need to, and if you feel the need to, then by all means do so. But I don't need to prove my skills in anything but my career, and that is all. I will be damned if some stranger wants to make an arbitrary ruling on if females should have equal representation in gaming if they can do coding and mapping.

If the situation was reversed, I wouldn't dream of demanding you show me your skills with a dev kit, or force you to learn how to do anything involved with developing a game. Because who am I to say your expertise isn't into something else?

Its like saying that women should have had more representatives in Congress and the Senate before they should have the right to vote.

This isn't about what you do, or what I do. We're talking about ratios and percentages, not individual stories, so stop bringing it in.

I was talking about competetive multiplayer this whole time, why did you suddenly bring in singleplayer? Look, I'm glad that you stick to singleplayer games. That's perfectly fine.

But females/feminists start crying when they come across the odd game that over-sexualizes females, or neglects to properly develop female characters, or when they get harsh treatment in competetive environments. THAT was what I was talking about, that's what this thread has been about for a while now.

If you're perfectly happy with your gaming experience, then none of my posts are aimed at you - be on your merry way, you're already a happy customer, you don't need to prove anything and that's GOOD. You are fine with the state of gaming - you're not complaining and enjoy games for what they are, so I hav enothing to say to you! Game on

This thread is about how women are not new to gaming, so why the sudden vitriol about us being around, when WE HAVE BEEN AROUND. THAT was the subject. You brought in competitive environments, and sexual harassment in those environments. Seeing as how I wasn't there, I cannot judge, but mistreating a fellow competitor for anything is quite annoying. Same with the "ginger" crap. or making fun of how fat someone is at a tournament. There is a level of sportsmanship to be maintained.

And don't assume I stick to anything. I play various genres and modes, as well as other girls.The point is it shouldn't matter. Gaming is about people, so it should be equal to all people. Stop treating women like aliens that need to prove themselves so that they can come into your world. We've been here.

We played the first game consoles, we have broken controllers, we have set up gaming rigs, we have our favorite and most hated games of all time. We are gamers too. We are among you, HAVE been among you, and have no need to prove ourselves. Gamers are male and female, gay and straight. Doesn't matter what the sex of the player is.

Trash talking is part of the game bro! Whenever anything is being played competitively getting a psychological edge on the opponent is a strategy that everyone uses. If the guy got a psychological edge by making kitchen jokes that's simply part of being in a competitive environment. Step onto a basketball court,a soccer field, or a football field and I guarantee you will here nonstop trash talk until the end of the competition.

 

[Tippy]

This thread is about how women are not new to gaming, so why the sudden vitriol about us being around, when WE HAVE BEEN AROUND. THAT was the subject.

That was the title. The post had a lot more.

It claimed 42% of gamers were females. It also mis-interpreted the "women invading gaming" part. When people said "omg women are invading gaming", they didn't mean that female gamers never existed and now they suddenly exist. Heck no. Even a blind person could see that female gamers have always existed, why the heck would anyone say that they never existed? Even if it was just 1-2 girls in a whole arcade full of guys, that's still enough.

What that statement was referring to was the recent upturn of events in the last few months regarding female representation and portrayal in gaming. Certain feminist groups don't like what they see in video gaming, and they want it changed.
It's a lot more than just "hey, female gamers have existed for a long time!". Of course they have existed for a long time. It's just too bad jack-all females see the appeal of developing games, the entire hardcore gaming scene is dominated by males, and the presence of females is only barely felt once in a while, and the percentage of females at pro gaming is probably <5%.

Google image search "Halo tournament", see how many girls you find. If 42% of Halo players are girls (they MUST be if the statistic is to be believed, and also female Halo players have always existed, right?) then why is nobody representing that 42%? What happened? This is what happened:

http://blog.mlive.com/entertainmentnow_impact/2008/10/large_halowebone.jpg
http://www.insidesocal.com/videogames/images/halotourney2.JPG
http://www.theespot.com/tournaments/halo1/Halo%203%20Tournament%20May%2023,%202009%20(3).JPG

Mmmm loving that 42% female gamers participating in there, loving all 0 of them.

This question isn't specifically aimed at you so please don't respond with "well I dont play halo" or "girls shouldn't have to prove they can win Halo" or "girls shouldn't need to enter tournaments to prove anything". Those responses don't answer the question, they avoid the question. Backing out of every question with the same responses of "but why should we?" isn't going to help the female gaming community rise up, it isn't going to help female gamers prove any point (saying "but we're not trying to prove a point" doesn't help either).

And then feminists come along waving banners of "why can't I play a girl in Halo? This is sexist, it's discrimination, they have no respect for females!". And that's where I /facepalm.

FYI Halo is just an example of a popular console/PC release. Replace "Halo" with any bloody game you like and show me a picture/video proving it.

42% my ass.

 

[Zoe Castillo]

--

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I feel like I'm masochistic for reading all 6 of these pages. Really, I'd love to see people just stop caring about gender and enjoy games. If I'm online (I never go online, but theoretically) and some guy is calling a girl a slut or fat solely because she's a girl I sure as hell am going to speak up against that. Not because of the gender of the person, but because whoever is making those insults is a dick, and I have no interest in being part of a community where that's acceptable. Hell, there's plenty of reasons why I'm outright embarrassed to be included under the same term as some people in the gaming community.

The fact that there's so much targeted abuse on a group of people because their GENDER isn't doing enough to show their presence in gaming is completely ridiculous. What part of it matters besides what the individual thinks? And, what has been bugging me since I started reading this thread, why are people actually defending making an entire chunk of the gaming community feel uncomfortable?

That was the title. The post had a lot more.

It claimed 42% of gamers were females. It also mis-interpreted the "women invading gaming" part. When people said "omg women are invading gaming", they didn't mean that female gamers never existed and now they suddenly exist. Heck no. Even a blind person could see that female gamers have always existed, why the heck would anyone say that they never existed? Even if it was just 1-2 girls in a whole arcade full of guys, that's still enough.

What that statement was referring to was the recent upturn of events in the last few months regarding female representation and portrayal in gaming. Certain feminist groups don't like what they see in video gaming, and they want it changed.
It's a lot more than just "hey, female gamers have existed for a long time!". Of course they have existed for a long time. It's just too bad jack-all females see the appeal of developing games, the entire hardcore gaming scene is dominated by males, and the presence of females is only barely felt once in a while, and the percentage of females at pro gaming is probably <5%.

Google image search "Halo tournament", see how many girls you find. If 42% of Halo players are girls (they MUST be if the statistic is to be believed, and also female Halo players have always existed, right?) then why is nobody representing that 42%? What happened? This is what happened:

http://blog.mlive.com/entertainmentnow_impact/2008/10/large_halowebone.jpg
http://www.insidesocal.com/videogames/images/halotourney2.JPG
http://www.theespot.com/tournaments/halo1/Halo%203%20Tournament%20May%2023,%202009%20(3).JPG

Mmmm loving that 42% female gamers participating in there, loving all 0 of them.

This question isn't specifically aimed at you so please don't respond with "well I dont play halo" or "girls shouldn't have to prove they can win Halo" or "girls shouldn't need to enter tournaments to prove anything". Those responses don't answer the question, they avoid the question. Backing out of every question with the same responses of "but why should we?" isn't going to help the female gaming community rise up, it isn't going to help female gamers prove any point (saying "but we're not trying to prove a point" doesn't help either).

And then feminists come along waving banners of "why can't I play a girl in Halo? This is sexist, it's discrimination, they have no respect for females!". And that's where I /facepalm.

FYI Halo is just an example of a popular console/PC release. Replace "Halo" with any bloody game you like and show me a picture/video proving it.

42% my ass.

There's a couple points you're completely glossing over there. Namely things that have already been mentioned to your earlier posts.

First off, plenty of women feel completely unwelcome in online environments, how many of them do you think would want to set themselves up for more of that, but instead to their face? Besides plenty of gamers aren't social about it for whatever reasons, and frankly I don't think they need to be. I almost never play online. I vastly prefer single player as do most of my female gaming friends. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist or aren't giving developers their money.

And what was that you were saying about women not showing their presence?! I just finished watching a video of a woman in a Cross Assault tournament. She seemed to enjoy it a lot. Surprised more people don't want that kind of experience.

Also, you seem to be throwing around the word feminist a lot. And you're blaming them for criticizing games? Well, I happen to be neither a feminist (gender equality for everyone!) or a woman, and I have many of the similar issues. Character's personalities being limited to their sexual traits? Why the hell would I want characters with bland personalities?

And for the record I don't think I've ever heard someone complain about not being able to play a female character in Halo. RPGs with character customization, of course, but that's just adding to the feature.

EDIT: Also, why are you even bringing up feminism? It's not a female specific "problem" and even if it was, not every woman is a raving feminist so you can't blame them for other members of their gender. Besides, it's not like there aren't any male specific problems in the industry, like say... harassing an entire demographic?

 

[Slayer_2]

If I was a woman and I played games, I'd just keep it under wraps. It's a sad reality, but women who reveal their gender are likely to either get called attention whores or harassed in other ways. Gender really shouldn't matter, but there are always a few gamers who will go out of their way to annoy and piss off as many people as possible, using whatever ammunition they think they have.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

While that video was reprehensible in many unoriginal sexist ways, that part with the two street fighter girls, one dumber than the other, was what made me facepalm the most.


The one in the pink hair didn't know who Cammy was but was in costume (seriously, how do you not know who Cammy is but are into stuff enough to cosplay....I've never cosplayed and I've been into fighters since 1995...it really does stand to reason that she may do it for attention) while the one actually playing the game did poorly and then started boasting about some supposed pride in her skill, not unlike 12-year-olds you see online who get destroyed and then call your mother obese.



Umm...no...people don't act like that in tournaments, people may be sexist and say crap from time to time as well as a myriad other "rude" things but they don't talk so much MEANINGLESS shit, telling people who critique them with valid remarks that they "have no girlfriends and look at boobs all day". That's just a big show of amateurishness for me and it just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.




Ah well, at least I know from first hand experience those two were the exception and not the rule. It's too bad that some people may think all women are like them.

 

[Tippy]

as for the whole "Why should girls need to prove anything?" there is a difference between having a meritocracy where everyone is judged based on the merits of their work which is what happens in fighting games no matter who is playing them , and having to suffer through sexual harassment outside of the game like the girl at cross assault . the defense I hear most often is ? well that?s just how the fighting community is, and she shouldn?t expect it to change just for her? but im sorry if misogyny ,racism or homophobia Is part of your community then your community needs to change and you should not be surprised when people call you out on that. I just watched a documentary about a country where it?s still legal to kidnap women and force them to marry you. and whenever the kidnapers were asked why do they think it?s ok they said it?s tradition and that people have no right to ask them to change .but that's not true just because something was the norm for a few years doesn?t make in infallible

Please look at the part in your quote I bolded. Do you know what I wished it had said instead?
"...Like all those girls/women who showed up at at cross assault. Those women shouldn't expect it to change just for them."

Then, perhaps, I would've been more convinced.

But alas, the exact situation took place, the kind of situation I've been raving on about - she went in alone. Her "42%" didn't show up, her fellow female gamers let her down.
There should've been atleast an entire group of girls at that tournament, where were they? Sitting at home, scared to reveal their gender? Or non-existent because that 1 woman correctly reflects the ratio of how many women are actually interested in gaming? Please, do answer.

There's a couple points you're completely glossing over there. Namely things that have already been mentioned to your earlier posts.

First off, plenty of women feel completely unwelcome in online environments, how many of them do you think would want to set themselves up for more of that, but instead to their face? Besides plenty of gamers aren't social about it for whatever reasons, and frankly I don't think they need to be. I almost never play online. I vastly prefer single player as do most of my female gaming friends. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist or aren't giving developers their money.

For the 100th time, ratios and percentages - PLEASE figure out how those work. I'll explain anyway...I will use purely EXAMPLES, alright? None of these figures are real, just examples:

> 10,000 people play games
> According to statistics, 42% are female, 58% are males.

> 5800 males play games
> 870 males are willing to socially interact with other gamers, and come out.
> Therefore 15% of male gamers are happy to socialize openly with other gamers
> 4200 females play games
> 10 of them are willing to socially interact with other gamers, and come out (actually 10 is an overstatement, more like 0-3, but we'll be optimistic).
> Therefore 0.24% of femae gamers are happy to socialize openly with other gamers
> 0.24% vs 15%.

I hope you understand how statistics and ratios work here. It doesn't matter what "their reasons" or "your reasons" are. If 42% of gamers are females, a far larger percentage of them should CARE enough about gaming to come out, espeically the ones who already love socializing (party-goers). That just isn't the case. Why? Nobody knows. Maybe because 42% is a massively exaggerated figure. Maybe. It's not out of the realm of possibility.

And what was that you were saying about women not showing their presence?! I just finished watching a video of a woman in a Cross Assault tournament. She seemed to enjoy it a lot. Surprised more people don't want that kind of experience.

And I'm equally bloody surprised. Yay, out of 42% atleast one woman had the balls (figuratively speaking) to show her face. It's a start. Lets see more please. More female gamers supporting each other instead of letting a couple of females desperately try to represent them. Because so far that's all I've been seeing, the same handful of girls making videos and websites saying "we're girls and we're gamers!". There needs to be MORE. FAR MORE. Ultimately there shouldn't even be a need for these silly videos, websites, kickstarters and campaigns. I should be able to look to my left in a LAN cafe and see whole bunches of girls enjoying rounds of DoTA/LoL. In my 10 years of attending LANs I have never witnessed any such thing.

Also, you seem to be throwing around the word feminist a lot. And you're blaming them for criticizing games? Well, I happen to be neither a feminist (gender equality for everyone!) or a woman, and I have many of the similar issues. Character's personalities being limited to their sexual traits? Why the hell would I want characters with bland personalities?

Because game developers (despite being primarily male) are allowed to make mistakes. There will always be bad movies, bad music and therefore bad games.

I'm only using the word "feminist" a lot because I want to make it clear that not all female gamers think that way, not all female gamers are up in arms about their genders' portrayal in some video games. Some are fine to roll along with it (a few examples in this thread actually). I don't really care what you call them, "feminist" or WHATEVER, it's just the label I am giving the specifc group of women who are waving pitchforks and torches because the main character from Heavenly Sword / X-Blades fights in a bikini. Or because a game like Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball turns a whole group of female characters into sexual play-things.

I'm saying such games are ALLOWED in a world where we allow far more vulgar thigs like strip clubs and pornography in society. It SELLS because the target demographic is male (i.e. most of the buyers) and the developers are also primarily male. It makes perfect sense.

If a female developer wanted to come along and make a game about half-naked men playing volleyball and striking sexual poses, so be it. I won't start yelling about mis-representation and inequality because I'm not an idiot, I understand who the game is aimed at and the purpose of the game.
They can even throw in scenes of women raping men (equality, right? Payback time!) and I still wouldn't give a damn, I wouldn't start tooting my horn yelling "OMG not rape, that's a sensitive subject, it should never be mentioned in gaming oooooh I'm super offended, look how offended I am by the very mention of the subject!!".

(the below paragraph is not aimed at you, only at those groups of women)
I mean for christ's sake ladies, put down the pitchforks and try to see WHO is making those games (men), WHY they are making them (for men) and WHO it they are aimed at (men). Ding ding ding, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why such games exist. Because they have the RIGHT to exist.

If I was a woman and I played games, I'd just keep it under wraps. It's a sad reality, but women who reveal their gender are likely to either get called attention whores or harassed in other ways. Gender really shouldn't matter, but there are always a few gamers who will go out of their way to annoy and piss off as many people as possible, using whatever ammunition they think they have.

^ This is one of the reasons why women will be continued to be shunned in male-dominated gaming communities. You make "harassment" sound like a guy has tied you to a chair and is physically feeling you up, for goodness sake.
Seriously, the way that females throw the "harassment" word around immediately makes everyone frantically back away from the topic thinking "wait, did she say harassment? Wow, I'm staying out of this lol".
Call it harassment all you like - it's empty threats, just words, it's the internet, it's people being idiots, it's the state of aggressive multiplayer, and if you can't block it out (or learn to harass back and kick some ass) then it's never going to work. Especially if you're alone, on your own. Just sit by the side lines, stick to singleplayer.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Dude are you seriously suggesting the way that guy treated that woman was acceptable because she was alone? If anything that makes it worse.

Women do suffer horrible harassment online. Please listen to this BBC documentary on the subject, the woman even gets harassed while he is interviewing her.

Seriously it's like 20 minutes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00s9jly

You seem to have this idea that sexism is okay because men are in a majority. Would you think if there was 1 black guy with 4 white guys and they all started being racist to him that's perfectly fine too?

Of course it isn't.

Like I've said many times before I don't mind peopel talking shit and calling each other noobs but when a guys starts talking about my tits or my period then he needs to shape up or ship out.

Stop victim blaming man it isn't cool.

Just because men are making games doesn't mean they have to pander to sex obsessed 17 year old boys 24/7

One of the creators of Portal was a woman, you know that awesome game that everyone adores. Just putting that out there.

 

[Tippy]

Dude are you seriously suggesting the way that guy treated that woman was acceptable because she was alone? If anything that makes it worse.

Far from it. It's not acceptable. I clearly stated "in an ideal world, she would've been accepted". Guess what happened? Yeah, not that. And it's going to happen again, and again, and again, for as long as women keep hiding their actual numbers like this it's going to happen. Like I said, the 42% sorely let her down and chose to hide.

Even if the hosts of the event clearly spell out "alright guys, we've got a girl participant attending - if you harass her, or say anything offensive to her, you are getting kicked out of the competition."
You know what will happen? The entire competition not a single guy will speak with her, occasionally whispering "stupid *****" whenever they got near her or giving her cold, unwelcoming looks. It WILL happen because she's alone.

Women do suffer horrible harassment online. Please listen to this BCC documentary on the subject, the woman even gets harassed while he is interviewing her.

Seriously it's like 20 minutes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00s9jly

I'll definitely watch that later, running out of time atm, thanks for the link. I do love BBC documentaries ^_^

You seem to have this idea that sexism is okay because men are in a majority. Would you think if there was 1 black guy with 4 white guys and they all started being racist to him that's perfectly fine too?

Of course it isn't.

It isn't, but it happens. It's not alright, but it happens. It's inhuman, demoralizing and unethical, but it happens. The strong oppress the weak. The majority oppress the minority. If you don't think it doesn't happen on a daily (heck, hourly) basis then you would be blind.
Have you ever wondered why black people in certain neighborhoods resort to moving around in groups? I strictly do not wish to come off on a racist note here (I'm personally neither black, nor white, more of a light brown ) but it's an incredibly true fact. They call each other "brothers", have a strong sense of unity and value that strength lies in numbers and unity.

This is something that female gamers desperately need to do if they want to really fight back the male harassment. They need to stop stepping out in crowds alone, they need to gather (i.e. unify) entire groups of gamer girls and mobilize into the crowd. When's the last time you saw a "girls night out" where a whole pack of girls went to the local LAN event, or even the local arcade? Do you think they even stand a REMOTE chance of getting harassed when they're out in groups like that? Hell no.
Even a whole army of males will think twice before calling out a group of 5-10 girls. It just wouldn't be worth the trouble and commotion. But singling out a single girl (or two) is very easy, and it WILL happen if given the chance. Males are constantly getting reminded of the fact that "gaming isn't for girls" because they see it all around them. The girls hide themselves, the girls only talk video games specifically with their small, closely-knit group of other girl gamers. I used to ask girls "so you play any video games?" and after years of hearing "not really" or "oh you mean like puzzles and stuff?" I just gave up. They're either lying about not playing video games, or they genuinely aren't interested. Meanwhile if I simply relax and ask a fellow male "so play any games bro?" I'm almost guaranteed to get a "yeah man, playing D3 atm" or "not so much these days". Video games are still a "guy" thing, I feel it in the society, I feel it around me, the gaming girls aren't openly discussing video games, they aren't coming out.

Like I've said many times before I don't mind peopel talking shit and calling each other noobs but when a guys starts talking about my tits or my period then he needs to shape up or ship out.

Stop victim blaming man it isn't cool.

Just because men are making games doesn't mean they have to pander to sex obsessed 17 year old boys 24/7

Alright, stop this. They don't do it 24/7. You know they don't. I know they don't. A select few developers have done it with a select few games. Stop talking as if every bloody game panders to sex obsessed to 17 year old boys.

One of the creators of Portal was a woman, you know that awesome game that everyone adores. Just putting that out there.

Stop this as well. I'm always referring to women in the minority, I have tried my best to imply that I KNOW there aren't zero women. I become rather perplexed when people come back with "Well I saw this one girl who was an awesome gamer, I know this one woman who helped make awesome game X!". For goodness sake, I know they exist.

But they exist in the same way female warriors existed in the middle ages (before you shout "there was this woman who was an awesome warrior!").

We are talking ratios and percentages, majority and minority.

 

[Zoe Castillo]

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[saintdane05]

Better put this up.



Common myths and misconceptions about feminism include:

All feminists are women.[/B]
Just as it's possible for straight people to be in favor of same-sex marriage, or for non-Jews to be against anti-Semitism, it is very much possible for men to identify as feminist. Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist ideals include Alan Alda, Joss Whedon, Kurt Cobain, John Lennon, Hayao Miyazaki, Henrik Ibsen, John Stuart Mill, Linkara and most of his male colleagues, Frederick Douglass, and L. Frank Baum.
It's worth noting that there's a minority school of thought that says while men can (and should) support feminism, they shouldn't identify themselves as feminists, because they think feminism is fundamentally about women solving their own problems without looking to men to do it for them. Men sympathetic to feminism who agree with this point of view generally describe themselves as "pro-feminist."

All feminists are lesbians.[/B]
Lesbians have been an important part of the feminist movement pretty much from day one ? prominent lesbian or bisexual feminists include Andrea Dworkin, Valerie Solanas, Simone de Beauvoir, Judith Butler, Julia Serano, Camille Paglia and Mary Daly. However, many (probably most) feminists are straight women. There are also male feminists (straight, bisexual, gay and asexual), asexual feminists, transgender feminists, and feminists of any other sexuality and gender identity you can think of.
There have been a few feminist writers ? especially during the 1970's, before the movement had made as many gains as it had today ? who suggested that it might not be possible to have a truly egalitarian heterosexual relationship as long as sexism remained pervasive in society. This was fiercely debated even at the time, though, and it was never mainstream feminist dogma that women had to swear off sex with men to become feminists.

All feminists are hairy-legged, makeup-shunnin', boot-wearin' brutes.[/B]
As much as feminists dislike the "women must be dainty and pretty" messages that society/media blast at them, for most, it's the must part that they object to. Some feminists choose to avoid or reject mainstream beauty ideals as a statement of protest, and there are even some who adhere to a Real Women Never Wear Dresses philosophy ? but it's increasingly argued that valuing traditionally masculine behavior (like being unconcerned about looks) over traditionally feminine behavior (like wearing dresses and makeup) is ultimately pretty anti-feminist in itself. Most feminists just think men and women should be equally free to decide for themselves how much effort they care to put into their appearance.

Feminism was invented in the 1970s.[/B]
Go back to any place and time where there has been widespread discrimination against women, and you will find feminism. (Or at least something that looks like feminism if you squint hard enough.) The word "feminism" dates back to 1895, and Christine de Pizan was writing feminist works as far back as the early 15th century. If you believe that men can be feminists and that identifying with the movement isn't essential, then according to some interpretations of his work feminism may go all the way back to Euripides. That would make Feminism Older Than Feudalism. (On the other hand, some of his contemporaries called him misogynistic even by Ancient Greek standards.)

Feminists think men and women are 100% identical.
Most feminists would agree that there are slight, overall differences between the sexes. While sentiments like "men tend to be slightly physically stronger than women" can lead to arguments if stated/interpreted wrongly, the majority of feminists would concede that, yes, males generally have females beat in raw strength. What really grinds a feminist's gears are suggestions that:

*Something that applies to one sex is universal and cannot apply to the other sex. ("Any man is physically stronger than any woman, ever, period.")

*Differences between the sexes are an excuse for sexual discrimination. ("Women are not as physically strong as men, and thus no women should ever be allowed to have jobs that require lifting heavy objects.") (Or, even worse, "Women are not as physically strong as men, and thus no woman should ever be allowed to have jobs.")

*Failure to adhere to expectations about one's sex is an excuse for ridicule. ("Any man weaker than a woman is a loser; any woman stronger than a man is a freak.")

Likewise, feminists often wonder how much of certain purported differences - say, girls being better at reading and boys being better at math - are actual innate differences, versus how much they might be a result of socialization (e.g., girls are scared away from pursuing math/boys refuse to spend time reading because they don't want to behave "inappropriately" for their gender and/or they're already convinced they'll be bad at it due to their gender). Most feminists don't deny that it's possible there are some real, innate psychological differences between the sexes ? they just think those differences are probably pretty small, and that it's better to just treat people to as individuals.
Feminists also have a problem with attributing to gender individual character traits that could have originated from other sources, like natural human reactions. For example, Jenny is crying because her father died ? which surely warrants a good cry ? but people observing her assume that she's emotionally distraught because she's a giiiiirl. (If you're about to protest that this sort of behavioral mis-assignment could happen to anyone, well, you're right: it's a known psychological bias called the fundamental attribution error.)
And just to complicate matters further, there's a whole school of thought (though, again, not the mainstream these days) called Difference Feminism, which argues that there are real, significant, biological differences between men and women, and that feminism should be not about treating men and women as the same, but about making sure feminine traits aren't devalued in comparison with masculine ones.

Feminists are frigid, hate sex, and want to stop anyone from enjoying porn or fanservice.[/B]
Feminists have a problem with porn tropes that promote a degrading or hateful view of women (Victim Falls For Rapist, Not If They Enjoyed It Rationalization, Sex Slave, etc.), and with the ways the porn industry exploits a lot of the women who work for it. Some (again, this was a more popular position in the 1970's than it is today) do think porn inherently objectifies women and is therefore always misogynistic; other feminists, though, think what the world actually needs is better porn ? porn that presents sex as something where both partners' desires should be equally important. There's more of a consensus on fanservice: feminists are generally not against seeing sexy ladies in media, but don't like how often the ladies' Character Development is pushed aside in favor of looking at their, err, other developments. In any case, most feminists enjoy sex just fine, and those who don't are typically at least okay with the idea of it. There's even a whole faction of the movement, called Sex-Positive Feminism, that focuses on working to promote positive and empowering views of sexuality.

Feminists hate men, think women are better than men, and think women should have more power than men.[/B]
Women who seriously blame men for everything are known to readers of this wiki as Straw Feminists and to mainstream feminists as "wrong." Most feminists don't think sexism is primarily something all individual men do to all individual women ? the problem is patriarchy, which is the name for the whole system of cultural ideas and institutions that function to oppress and control women. Women can ? and frequently do ? act in ways that support patriarchy, and men can ? and do ? fight patriarchy. The point of feminism (as much as such a vast and highly fragmented movement can be said to have a point) is to raise women to the level of rights/respect that men have had for centuries, not to drag men down to subhuman levels as some cosmic act of revenge.

Feminists think women are the only ones who are hurt by sexism, and don't care about men's problems.[/B]
It's pretty uncontroversial in feminist circles to point out that patriarchy hurts men in plenty of ways. (Some would argue that it hurts women more on the whole, but others think the whole question of whose oppression is worse is a pointless distraction from actually working to fix things.) A lot of feminists specifically focus on the ways men's oppression and women's oppression are linked ? for instance, many argue that companies need to start granting paternity leave both so that fathers can have the chance to bond with their kids, and so that women aren't always assumed to be the ones who are automatically responsible for child care.

Feminists burn bras.[/B]
Back in The Sixties, there were some public demonstrations in which feminists threw bras, high heels, and other fashion-related items into trash cans to protest unrealistic standards of beauty. A newspaper headline compared these actions to men burning draft cards during The Vietnam War. The two ideas got jumbled together in the public consciousness, and the myth of bra-burning continues to this day.
Feminists are angry, bitter harpies.[/B]

Most feminists will have certain Double Standards they especially loathe; however, they don't go around being cranky all the time, any more than atheists do. (Besides, don't we all have certain double standards we especially loathe? Fundamental attribution error at work again, ladies and gentlemen.)


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[Tippy]

So your argument is 'there aren?t allot of completive female gamers thus they don?t deserve respect ?'

Yes videogames have been a male dominated activity ,so? How does that excuse sexual harassment?

Please quote the exact part where I said sexual harassment was excused. Please, show me that quote. Until then your point is null and void. Also, resorting to meme images in discussions is sad, it will only diminish my respect for you and will eventually lead me to ignore you completely. Say it in your own words or don't say it at all.

Back the discussion:
It doesn't excuse sexual harassment. It never did. But it's still going to bloody happen anyway.

Read my previous post about the majority and minority, try to understand how the REAL world works before you start assuming things that would only exist in an IDEAL world.

Did you know gun crime is against the law? Guess what, it happens on a regular basis. So if the law can't stop gun crime, do you think yelling "respect us dammit!" is going to convince the majority of male gamers to suddenly respect that 1 girl that just walked into the event, or that 1 girl who logged into the voice chat sausage-fest?

To this you will naively say "of course they should respect her and treat her as an equal."
To which I say "sure, they SHOULD respect her. But they won't. Welcome to the real world. What are you (as female gamers) going to do about it? Sit behind the computer and yell some more?"

EDIT: also you quoted me on something I didn?t say

My fault.

 

[Zoe Castillo]

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