(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

[Overusedname]

snip

Actually, the differences are more than just physical. Mental, psychological, and social differences abound. http://cranepsych2.edublogs.org/files/2009/08/Sex_diffs_in_the_brain.pdf

I mean, think about it. You and I have many chemicals in our brains that are at totally different levels from those in female brains, and you think that won't affect us? It's not just about stereotypes, it's about something even more fundamental than that.

I was reading another paper by a professor, I think he was from University of KAnsas and I'm having trouble finding it now, but anyways he was talking about how men and women socialize differently. That typically men have more, shallow relationships and women have fewer, albeit deeper ones. This inclined men to get together with other men in large groups to do things, which in turn could have led them to form organizations and then to form societies. Women were much better caretakers (of everything, not just children) because they made deeper connections with others, so when a man would be tempted to take an action against that person out of apathy (say, aggressive actions) women would be less inclined to do so. As such men created and continue to create the organizations that make our society, while women do very well inside the organizations once they have been built.

Much of that is conjecture, just extrapolating from the known methods of socializing. He also talked about how men were more to the extremes of women on basically everything. Take IQ for an example. On average men and women are equal, but there are more genius level men than women just as there are more men with mental deficiencies. Basically, whenever you take a closed system, cut off one end and not the other, then the sample becomes skewed. Grades are a good example because they are topped out at As, so women do better because men are hampered by those that do less well. PAy is the opposite, because it is capped at zero and it skewed in favor of those extremes making large amounts of money, which are men.

But yeah, that argument that men and women are basically the same does not hold any water. The question is to what extent are we different.

There's still a lot of evidence and recent arguement that suggests gender is highly societial, even regarding the things you're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo7o2LYATDc

Even Butler (in other work) enforces the idea that, yes, our chemical differences effect us. But a lot of people prove this to be inconsistent. There are several men that have proven to be very caring stay-at-home fathers, nurses, medical caretakers; 'feminine things'. Several women have proven to be very powerful speach-makers, leaders, CEO's, writers, professors and inventors and nowadays tend to 'lead' the family very often.

I'm saying we have norms, but they are not consistent at all. I'm not aggressive, have little interest in competition, have a tight-nit group of extremely close but few friends.

I'm also a guy. A huge, burly hairy guy with a 2-foot wide shoulder width and baritone voice who likes hiking as much as musical theater. I know straight women who have never worn a dress in their life, and most girls in honors math and math majors at my last two schools were girls.

Again, conjecture from personal experience, but more and more psychologists are arguing there's a good chance gender is more of a label than anything else. Obviously it's still a physical trait, but I hope you realize what I mean. We try to fit into established roles in order to be accepted.

Look at transexuals. They will sometimes 'pick' a gender to predominantly identify themselves as, as it's a cultural norm to just be one or the other, not a blend of the two.

That mentality, whether it's explicitly stated or entirely subconscious, exists in every culture.

Just providing the other side of the spectrum. In my brief 20 years on this earth I've met far to many 'exceptions to the rule' to generalize...ANYONE really. The biggest, grittiest man I know is gay, and the most adorable feminine girl I know is Bi.

...New Jersey's kind of diverse...

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Lol, this thread reminds me of this:
Full of Betas and Omegas up in here white knighting as if their life depended on it, grow some fucking balls lol

Please elaborate to me what White Knighting is Mr. Alpha, for I most certainly must have the wrong understanding of it.

You see, I've been under the impression that White Knighting is the go to response for people who can't formulate an argument of their own, and instead regurgitate the bullshit they read on /v/ or some other den inequity and faux-intellectuals.

You see,the term "white Knight" in these circumstances (debates on virtually anonymous forums) appears to be used primarily to discredit an argument pro-gender equity without formulating an argument of their own, and instead attacking the integrity of the person holding the argument.

The problem with this is that anyone who isn't 12 and below, can see through that ruse and ends up betraying more about the user of the term, then it defines its intended target.

For example, from your post I can surmise that you believe in an outdated and thoroughly debunked idea of primal hierarchies (Alpha/Omega) and that you don't realise that the most vocal people on this topic, pro-gender equity, are Female. You also think like a teenager in a school yard, where calling names and acting like your testicles actually make a damn bit of difference in the equation.

On topic: Here is a trend I see in these debates.

Women gamers get vocal, make a fuss and look for the same attention their male cohorts receive.
- People tell them not to rock the boat.
- They tell them that they are too few to "deserve" or to achieve the change they protest for.
- Claim that women gamers aren't real or are very rare and all this hullabaloo is just to get some cock or to ruin our hobby. (because Bitches amirite?)
- That women don't do enough for "games" or the culture/industry of games to be entitled to change (you know, because unless you make at least one fucking game in your life, you have no right to say anything).

Male gamers who agree with the sentiments and desires of the female audience and make that acceptance known.
- Get called out for White Knighting, because you know, the only people we ever support others are the ones we want to bone. Why else would anyone ever do that?
- Are told they are gullible or easily manipulated/brainwashed by the femnazis/bitches/tits and/or vagina (this isn't ironic at all)
- It is understood that they have neither balls, nor are they getting sex, because obviously they are too pathetic to be real men or "alpha males".

You know, from where I stand, it looks like people are afraid of change. I can't see any other side to this that isn't facetious bullshit or fox news worthy fear mongering.

Uh, no.
I'm 18, and it is everyone's job to not be dicks to eachother:

And I'm over 30 and I agree with him.

Men don't and shouldn't have a free pass to act like asshats to women. I don't have any problem being called a noob etc but we shouldn't have to put up with sexual harassment or people saying we aren't gamers because we happen to have ovaries.

I have been busy reading here for a bit. I have laughed, been angered, made almost physically sick, and happily inspired. There have been many people here who to me are worth quoting, but I am not the best at making these short quickly (don't know how+and it would take to long to delete such a great wall of text. Sorry to everyone I couldn't quote.)

I wanted to quote you both because in different was you both have shown what the problem is when it comes to girls/women not being "accepted" in the gaming community. By accepted I mean not having to deal with bullshit vomiting filth, simply because ( as Moonlight put it best so many times) they happen to be female. Ragsnstitches, you pretty much listed every crap argument used by people who believe it's okay to harass women in the gaming community, and I saw Moonlight have to deal with them many times including today in this thread. I refuse to just sit by and let the true vocal minority shout hate speech as if from some unholy gaming bible!

All of us have seen if not actually experienced being separated from the "normal" group. Maybe it was because you liked something "everyone else" thought was dumb, maybe it was because you were "different" in terms of your looks/personality, or maybe there was no reason and you were just unlucky at the time. So how is it okay to do the same childish things to women, gay people, people who don't play "enough" games, or don't play the kind of games you like? Please morally justify how being an ass to someone simply because they happen to have an unimportant difference to you such as the ones I have listed. Unless someone, anyone, is sexist, racist, a pedophile, a rapist, or a murderer no one has the right to make them feel unwanted.

I have many nieces and nephews that I have been getting into gaming. Playing games with them, letting them watch me play, and obviously teaching them how to play. I want them, and my children to grow up the way I didn't. Enjoying this great hobby with all the other good people who love it too. So, people saying any group of decent people have no right to be in this community, your're wong, and you are far more alone than you think we are. It isn't just the female gamers (of which there are many), but also a majority of male gamers who also are sick of the hate speeches. You who wish women, gay people, casual gamers, or whoever else to leave the community or shut up about the abuse are the minority. And you're getting smaller every year.

Gaming is for everyone, and its community will be no different in time. Ragsnstitches, Moonlight Butterfly, thank you again. I will do all I can to help the gaming community come together. Even if that just means teaching my nieces, nephews, and children that gaming is for everyone. Boys, girls, and adults.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Nor are they a rare minority: http://www.themarysue.com/gaming-statistics/

In this day and age of ubiquitous and inescapable data harvesting, you would have to be some sort of imbecile to honestly believe that game developers do not have a damn clear picture of the demographical representation of the people who play their games.

The video game industry in way of trade associations, like but not limited to the Entertainment Software Association, fund surveys every single year, the details of which include questions that result in a pie chart detailing the genre break-up of what people bought but also their age and gender. But more relevant than that the advent of digital rights media has given the industry a better view of their paying customers then they have ever previously enjoyed.

But lets get back to the annual 'fact sheet' that gets released by the ESA every year. Despite clearly having the means with which to inform the reader of exactly who is playing what, and in what genre they're playing it in, they insist on publishing only one statistic and that is that 47% of people who play video games are female.

The worldwide gaming industry is worth upwards to a hundred billion dollars[footnote]http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/global-games-market-worth-over-100bn[/footnote]. Again, you would have to be some sort of idiot to believe that the people in control of the purse strings wouldn't have access to a more comprehensive amount of data, in effect a clear working knowledge of the gender line demographical breakdown of damn near every genre of game. Please actually stop for a moment. Read through the complete collection of material[footnote]http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf[/footnote] that the ESA is willing to publish, material I remind you that you're otherwise quite happy to use in order to support your case. If they can collect and separately publish information revealing the gender demographics of gamers, and a break-up of the demographical representation of various different types of game genres, then absolutely nothing is stopping them from combining the two and deriving a better understanding of the video game market.

An understanding that they're unwilling to publish for want of one reason or another.

They don't publish more information than they have to in order to serve their own purposes, because vocal minorities of mealy mouthed, weasel worded truth dodgers, have long since trained companies to be as circumspect and liberal with the truth as they themselves have a habit of being. Political activists of all stripes, including but certainly not limited to Feminists, have long since dropped any semblance of honesty down a mineshaft and left it there to rot. Often for the most downright petty reasons, and to the continued detriment of all people suffering from real problems everywhere.

They're not going to openly and honestly share the information that they paid for to be gathered because somebody, probably multiple somebodies, are likely to make a weapon out of the information. The ESA was founded at least in part to defend the video game industry from opportunistic attacks by US politicians across the political spectrum. And just when the industry is beginning to see a little light at the end of that tunnel, along comes the gender deconstructionists to sink the knife in.

And they do it because the audience of Puzzle Pirates should clearly both affect and inform the design decisions taken across the entire industry. Think about the stupidity of that statement, and its fairly stupid, because that is exactly the sort of quantum leap of faith you've taken off the back of the ESA fact sheet. You have no way of correlating gender representation amongst the wider gamer audience, with that of the gender representation of any particular gaming genre. The published data is deliberately too vague to do that. And most of the time I'm left with the impression that the attempt was just a piss weak roundabout way of saying that both the game and the intellectual property that it is based on shouldn't have existed in the first place, and the resources that were sequestered to make it should have been used elsewhere.

This is hardly a problem unique to women. Regrettably it is a very human response to see something that you don't personally want and wish it was something else. But again, this is the sort of bullshit doublespeak that we've been reduced to using in these modern times.

But you know, I know, we both know that you can't say something like that openly on the internet! Censorship has traditionally been virtually unsellable on the internet, and openly calling for it is likely to get you digitally tarred and feathered. Besides which doing things this way means you can wrongly decry all the people who disagree with your bullshit as sexist pigs.

It would be like me saying 53% of video game players are male, so Puzzle Pirates should adopt a dirty realistic design aesthetic, complete with scurvy inflicted pirates, syphilis infected wenches and graphic 16th century amputations of gangrene infected limbs. Oh! And slow motion grapeshot money shots!

[http://img145.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=309529476_PuzzlePirates_122_154lo.jpg] +

[http://img198.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=309533981_surgerytools_122_161lo.jpg] +

[http://img173.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=309536630_grapeshot_122_344lo.jpg]

How on earth would a light hearted puzzle game fail to gain a larger audience with such, improvements. Surely nothing that I personally valued would be lost.

See. It's not much of an argument really. And you should feel bad for making it, but I sincerely doubt it that you will.

But what really amuses me is the idea that you lot seem to clearly and earnestly believe, really believe that you know how to run a world spanning $100 billion dollar industry better than the industry itself.

That's fucking priceless.

 

[Vault101]

Yes, because generally they are not appearance conscious. The ones who are it really doesn't make a difference in terms of their attractiveness. I've seen some women who play video games who are attractive but this is extremely rare and a statistical anomaly almost not even worth acknowledging.

Also, the girl gamers I've encountered have always been pseudo-intellectuals, with weird sense of humor, socially awkward, and have a variety of other traits I just don't particularly like.

huh....ell I really don't know what to say...makes me wonder what kind of people you like..

[spoiler/][img/]http://www.thecaptainsmemos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/10dumb/Snooki1.jpg[/img][/spoiler]

or is that to presumptuous of me? of coarse I can;t tell you what you can and can't be attracted to..I'm just not entirely sure what you mean

"pseudo-intellectuals"? like what? like tot talk about interesting topics? women arent suposed to be smart or somthing?

"weird sense of humour" <-perhaps a little too subtle/complex than your usual American sitcom? I can see how that can be confusing for some

oh...ok there I go being presumptuous again, maybe that's not what you mean at all, though nothing you've said so far demonstrates otherwise...good for you then

[quote/]All men dislike "Captains" "White Knights" "King Arthurs" whatever they call them in your neighborhood. For very obvious reasons, If you don't dislike Captains there is a strong chance that you are indeed a Captain.[/quote]

hold on bro...all that testosterone might have leaked into your brain and is affecting your reasoning

but seriously...."if your not x your y" logic is really.....yeah no

 

[Vault101]

Perhaps women just need to embrace the ways of the community and join in the fun...

wow....missing the point by a fucking light year

by that logic its the WOMEN who are their own problem....nothing wrong with sexisit dickheads..oh no..let'em go....its all in good fun!

 

[Vault101]

If I got pissed off everytime something discriminatory happened in the world, I would probably die on the spot from permanently-pissed-off-syndrome

And yet this discrimination exists. And yet gays and blacks are out there, showing their faces, proud to be who they are, moving in huge groups and showing the word their strength and existence, leading huge marches, physically making a move because they were the minority against a majority.

Guess what female gamers have done so far? Made a website or two. Made a couple of videos. Yelled at some developers for making a sexist game, tried to feed them to the media. Thrown a female or two into an event populated almost entirely by males, with no other females to support them.

They have done exactly what nobody cares about, they have done exactly the opposite of making a huge physical, noticeable move, they are still hiding. Men have been doing it for years. I could show you endless evidence of large numbers of male gamers enjoying gaming together, but I can find little or no evidence of females doing the same thing.

I admit it's both a combination of men's behavior and women's reluctance to drive themselves forward. I put more pressure on the latter because it's a more realistic approach, it's more likely to happen if women truly make up a whopping 42% of gamers. You tell me why it hasn't happened yet, you tell me why it didn't happen 10 years ago if this thread truly implies that "women are not new to gaming, 42%, etc".


It's "normal" because men have shown more of an interest in tech/ math than women. Men have shown more of an interest in gaming than women. Nobody is stopping women from crossing the border, some women already have. But more women aren't following suit, and if they are it's at a very slow pace OR they keep hiding.


I'm not. I'm just 1 guy asking for some visual proof I can see/feel, is it too much to ask if the statistics are true? So far nobody, and I mean nobody in this thread has brought up anything other than the same ECA stastistic. 42% this, 42% that. And then I bombard them with videos/photos/experiences, I even WELCOME them to find whatever they can and show me some visible proof. And then they either quiet down, or try to dodge the question (like you just did), saying "umm..err...that's irrelevant" or "because men are sexist jerks" or "but ECA said it's 42%, it's official!"

I'm bored of this statistic that nobody can back up, nobody can see, nobody can feel, nobody can experience. It leaves nothing for discussion and all I can say is "alright fine, 42% it is, whatever" and walk away shaking my head.


No. If you were walking in the mall and you saw a man saying "dammit woman, stop being an idiot" to a woman (you don't know either of them), are you going to barge in and yell "hey that's sexist! She has a name, don't call her "woman"!. Going to smack some sense into that sexist now, are we? Why should guys go out of their way to shield women from sexist mocks? Can't they hold their own? And when we do shield them, why do they get offended saying "I don't need defending, hero, buzz off".
If you hear a random woman say "bah, I swear all men are stupid" to her friend, do you expect another nearby woman come up to her, call her a sexist and smack some sense into her? What the hell?
]

how about this?..."don't be a sexist prick" is that really so hard for some to grasp?

essentially what I'm getting here is your saying "women don't seem to go to conventions..therefore they shouldn't complain"

I'm skeptical of the 42% myself but regardless of how low the numbers may or may not be sexism is NOT OK...now granted some issues are less of a "thing" than others (like girlfrend mode incident isnt exactly worth getting ones panties in a twist over)

its not that hard..really, and people need to stop getting so hung up on that statistic

in terms of the games themselves things arent even that bad...

[quote/]
But that still doesn't answer WHY men controlled culture and continue to do so in many aspects of life (or regions of the world).
You're right, we didn't earn it. But we proved we could do it. We showed it. Do you understand that? Probably not, so let me spell it out:


If women were 100% equal to men, the world would have almost never seen any period of male dominance.

In the last 5000+ years, women would've fought back and proved they were equally as inventive, equally as productive, equally as strong (body and mind), equally as capable, etc etc etc. Women would've always had an equal say in society, always been able to vote, always had equal privileges. But that did NOT happen. Men stayed in power, and continue to stay in power in many aspects of life. WHY? Please, do answer (and a decent answer, not "because men are jerks").

Eventually you will have to say it, I'm not going to say it. You started this, you brought it up, so now answer it. Also, keep in mind that this is a dangerous and somewhat irrelevant topic to bring up in terms of video gaming. I don't condone it. [/quote]

uhhh....what the fuck is this? and whats its relevance to gaming?

men are not supiror to women, in that case its got nothing to do with "supirioriy" over "inferiority" all that is to do with biology and what "role" each gender has in "the circle of life"

mabye people mistake that for superiority but what happens when there are no women? what happens when there are no men?......its yin and yang...not planet of the apes

now thease days things are a little different as traditional gender roles arent as important as they once were...granted I can admit that perhaps certain genders are more drawn to different things..but there's always exceptions to that "rule"

so I don;t know, if thats supposed to "show" how men are better than women which somhow means that gaming is always going to be for men or some shit you should just stop talking or whatever....

 

[Overusedname]

Nor are they a rare minority: http://www.themarysue.com/gaming-statistics/

-snip-

...But what really amuses me is the idea that you lot seem to clearly and earnestly believe, really believe that you know how to run a world spanning $100 billion dollar industry better than the industry itself.

That's fucking priceless.

I don't think people should be complacent and accept low standards because other people are making money. That's how the music industry turned into what it currently is.

In many ways, catering to women means making the impossibly badass marine a women more often. A la Samus. Again, I speak from experience and whole hearted assure you plenty of men play farmville (I know fewer women who do, actually) and plenty of women play halo.

There are also women who lie about their gender online.

A lot of them. And that corrupts statistics even further.

Some men pretend to be women as well, though that's usually for trolling sessions and they often don't actually hit the 'female' check box...

I'm aware the bias might work the statistics a bit, but...well, I have seen the evidence of this statistic. As have several guys and girls in this very forum topic.

Of course several people have not experienced the wonder of a person with a Y chromosome holding a controller first hand. It depends on were you live, since online interactions can't be trusted. It's entirely random how much exposure you get.

Hell, the point is, a lot of women play games, they get a lot of crap from a vocal minority, and the facts make it clear they're here to stay, so let's play nice. I PERSONALLY see no reason to doubt ESA because it matches up with the fact that half the gamers I know are women. If I didn't know those women, I might doubt it. I can see where this perspective comes from.

...Okay, as a general thought, I kinda...thought this statistic would make people happy. We're more open and inclusive than people thought. The Game's industry is growing up. We already have women here, and they've been here for a while, so let's make them feel more welcome than they currently are.

Those thoughts were part of my motive for starting this thread, with another being...that...video. (brrr)

I'm happy with some of the results anyway. At least people are thinking. I've only seen a handful of real fights...by the standards of a sexism discussion.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

But what really amuses me is the idea that you lot seem to clearly and earnestly believe, really believe that you know how to run a world spanning $100 billion dollar industry better than the industry itself.

That's fucking priceless.

This is the internet sir, where everyone knows better then everyone else! Because it's simply easier to tell someone else what to do then perform an action yourself.

Perhaps women just need to embrace the ways of the community and join in the fun...

wow....missing the point by a fucking light year

by that logic its the WOMEN who are their own problem....nothing wrong with sexisit dickheads..oh no..let'em go....its all in good fun!

Logic? It was a fucking parody video. A joke. Talk about missing the point by a fucking light year...

If you'd like a less eye-rolling style reply, realize that getting in on a joke allows one to diffuse the harmful affects of the situation in the first place. If a comment loses its power, you disarm your opponent, thus rendering them powerless against you. While you continue to cry misogyny while being offended by the natures of man, those women pointed out the ridiculousness of it all and would more than likely engage in fair play regardless of the circumstance. If someone tells them; "tit's or gtfo", they'll snap back; "my tits are bigger than your balls!" and everyone has a good laugh and gets on with their lives. If no one said anything, again we would get on with our lives; while you can't help by cry foul.

This is why some people are fucking irritated; your attitude can't even accept a joke in a inverted situation. They are making fun of sexist dickheads and instead of laughing at it, you can't help but twist it as a serious representation of how sexist dickheads offend your sensibilities.

You really need to get over yourself... and do some proofreading.

 

[Contradiction]

Now, before the outcry of 'casuals don't count', The majority of those women are playing the kind of games this cite typically associates gaming with. 40% of gamers online are female, and to add to that, you need to consider the fact that women have A LOT of incentive to lie about their gender online nowadays, so it may be more.

Did your gender 'matter' when you revealed yourself to be a gamer? As a kid did you feel peer pressured to liking one thing but not another? I've heard many female gamers say they're met with strange reactions.

Well there it is most of the women I've met who actively play games that many would consider hard-core and at a rate considered hard core haven't considered themselves gamers at all. In fact the fact I didn't find out that a very close friend played Morrowind (and others like it) religiously for years not because of shame or shyness just because it wasn't a 'thing' to her. Now that I think about it the ones who did use 'gamer' as a selling point, if you will, were the more casual and in many cases obnoxious.

OT: When I was growing up there weren't many people with consoles. Heaps of people would come round and we'd play turn by turn chattin' about school or whatever. It wasn't weird in the slightest. Then again they were all guys so I suppose you could say there was gender roles happening there, but in early primary school kids still grapple with the concepts of 'the girls' or 'the boys' anyway.

Oh and on that other thread...
The vid wasn't complete bullshit. It did bring up one very interesting point. There are alot of people who like talking smack. There are people who think that the handles of avatars in video games give them a degree of anonymity and freedom. As anyone who has played with these people will know they will find any weak spot and focus on that. If you are a woman they will think that you may just loose you're cool if they get sexist with you. Chances are they're right. I mean again, as mentioned in the OP, there is an influx of this bullshit topic in threads, someone is upset.

And in the traditional way when saying something that doesn't completely agree with the majority in a volatile topic thread I will end this personally.
When I play games you are player one with (that gun, that champion, that sword) I don't really care if you're male or female, I don't think that many do.
Lastly I wouldn't ever know anyway if there wasn't attention drawn to it. Its cool if you want to mic in a game where talking is recommended , yeah assholes will probably say stuff and that's their fault but I have seen people talking in lobbies almost instantly announcing their gender. At times like these one can only think, you may not deserve it but you asked for it.

 

[Overusedname]

Oh and on that other thread...
The vid wasn't complete bullshit. It did bring up one very interesting point. There are alot of people who like talking smack. There are people who think that the handles of avatars in video games give them a degree of anonymity and freedom. As anyone who has played with these people will know they will find any weak spot and focus on that. If you are a woman they will think that you may just loose you're cool if they get sexist with you. Chances are they're right. I mean again, as mentioned in the OP, there is an influx of this bullshit topic in threads, someone is upset.

I don't necessarily see why this is a bullshit topic to discuss if any progress is to be made, but yeah I get what your saying. The anonymous mentality exists, but it doesn't really excuse itself, and I think we both agree on that.

Saying 'god you suck' doesn't equate to 'get back in the kitchen and get ready to swallow you whore'. Same policy as 'idiot' isn't as bad as the 'N word'. I think that's the issue. Why do so many guys feel the need to take it that far? I play multiplayer and I honestly don't get it.

Lastly I wouldn't ever know anyway if there wasn't attention drawn to it. Its cool if you want to mic in a game where talking is recommended , yeah assholes will probably say stuff and that's their fault but I have seen people talking in lobbies almost instantly announcing their gender. At times like these one can only think, you may not deserve it but you asked for it.

Yep. That's my point, really. Why piss someone off every time they speak when playing a game, considering that they're just trying to relax?

 

[Tippy]

Wait.

Wait wait WAIT WAIT WAIT.

A realization just hit me like a truck loaded with a cargo of iron-forged hippotomi.

If 42% of gamers were indeed women, this thread (and all threads like this one) wouldn't exit. This whole issue wouldn't exist.

Think about it: WHY should female gamers have to yell stuff like "we're NOT new to gaming, we've been here for a long time!" and "you know, we make up 42% of the gaming population!" if they indeed make up such a huge part of the population? Isn't it a bit strange?

If they already made up 42%, they shouldn't need to announce it! "Special" teams like Fragdolls would be deemed pointless, because women are everywhere in gaming right? They don't need some silly women-only pro gaming group to prove their presence, they're already involved in gaming just as much as guys!

Everyone would already KNOW females play games just as much as males, it would be as obvious as breathing. 42% doesn't just slip under the radar like that, 42% doesn't suddenly make news like that.

If that figure is for real, yelling "girls play games too!" should be as obsolete as yelling "breaking news everyone, water is wet! Also the sun is very bright." No shit. It should've been obvious.

Is anyone else seeing the paradox that I'm seeing here? If women are as common in gaming as they claim to be, why do threads like these even exist?

I just want to put away the sexism thing away for a bit and go back to the roots of this issue, if people don't mind. Sexist attitude towards female gamers isn't something that has always existed, it was never there at the dawn of gaming. It has something that has "creeped up" over time. But if 40%+ women have been playing games this whole time, it would've been impossible for such an attitude to creep up.

We would've been running into women in gaming so damn often that it would've been utterly pointless to keep being sexist towards them.

Do people see what I'm getting at here? Why the fuck would ANY guy, no matter how retarded or sexist, spend all day screaming "*****, go back to the kitchen" at 42 out of 100 players he meets in a game?

Take a World of Warcraft 40 man raid for example. Statistically, 16 of those people have always been girls. Are you telling me that 24 guys yelled at all 16 girls to shut the fuck up and go back to the kitchen? That wouldn't make any kind of sense in even the most backwards universe.
What the hell is going on here.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

What the fuck is puzzle pirates?

Seriously all of this crap has made me feel actually depressed. I fucking love games. Why the hell does the fact I don't have dick make any difference to that at all.

In my life I have owned an Atari 2600, Atari XEGS, Master System, NES, SNES, Mega Drive, N64, Sega Saturn, Playstation, Playstation 2, Dreamcast, Gamecube, XBOX, Wii, XBOX360 and various PC's the most recent one of which I built and overclocked myself. I also owned every incarnation of the Game Boy up until the 3DS.

I don't have a brother just a very understanding dad with deep pockets.

So people turning around to me and saying I'm not a gamer makes me understandably pissed and now it's actually making me sad to the point I'm not sure I want to take part in the community anymore.

As for women asking for changes. Do you think women aren't allowed to have preferences or an opinion?

As fun as it is having your sex portrayed as nothing but a sex object or people naming shit girlfriend mode or having my favourite gaming character of all time raped just to excite the male audience is /sarcasm. Maybe just maybe I'm going to speak up about that. If the devs listen to me then they listen to me if they don't then I am still going to play games.

snip

Thanks that gave me some hope.

snip

Love your new avi.

snip

Yeah you would think some guys would actually stop judging people for having ovaries by this point but no you are still ostracising us all. 42% of us. Bravo.

WHY should female gamers have to yell stuff like "we're NOT new to gaming, we've been here for a long time!"

Because some guys are sexist asshats?

snip

Most of the time men don't laugh with you though they just tell you to get back in the kitchen. Why is it so hard for some men to act like adults?

 

[Chemical Alia]

I have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about anymore, but it's making me want to quit my job and go live in the woods forever.

But as far as women in the video game industry making their voices heard and changing crap or whatever that I keep hearing, that's easier said than done. You don't just waltz in as the new employee of a AAA studio that makes games traditionally marketed towards men and expect things to change. No one cares what your gender is, nobody seeks out your womanly opinions or approval of ideas. And most women who do voice their opinions don't speak on behalf of WOMEN, only their own thoughts on the matter. You're hired under the assumption that you fit in with the company culture, not to go against it or try to change the way things are done.

AAA game developers are a ridiculously homogenous bunch of people, and I imagine it will be years before things really start to change. I see a lot more younger females in the industry/working to get in than experienced and influential women, so I suppose it's really just a matter of time. The more that AAA games appeal to a broader audience, the more you'll probably see them wanting to follow that route rather than getting into casual/girl games development.

 

[Tippy]

Yeah you would think some guys would actually stop judging people for having ovaries by this point but no you are still ostracising us all. 42% of us. Bravo.

Because some guys are sexist asshats?

Read, and re-read my post again. You're not seeing the paradox here.

I added a bit more to make it easier to understand what I'm asking.

 

[Contradiction]

I don't necessarily see why this is a bullshit topic to discuss if any progress is to be made, but yeah I get what your saying. The anonymous mentality exists, but it doesn't really excuse itself, and I think we both agree on that.

Yeah bullshit may not have been the right word terribly saturated would be more accurate I suppose. I'm kinda getting the Mass Effect 3 blues in that there are soooo many 'sexism and gaming' threads around.

However our stances on changing it differ. The more people point out that its happening and its bad the bigger the issue becomes. The more attention there is around women playing the less trivial it becomes, instead it turns into a 'thing'. I think everyone can agree that the ending we're looking for is the situation where a girl joins the lobby chats and no one cares. She is just another handle/character in an ocean. How is this attainable when people are now specifically drawing attention to it. The implication that our behaviors need to change is apparent and to those who enjoy the current culture whether that includes berating women or not it could be jarring and unwelcome, making them bitter or further distancing them from the topic.

A small example could be my all most subconscious choice to use the term 'bullshit topic' due to over saturation and emphasis. I mean I hardly play multi and all the female 'gamers' I knew are interstate since I moved, I'm as far removed from the topic as you get but even I'm getting riled. I can't imagine how more volatile and or sexist people are reacting but something tells me its not as positively as people want. [note the reaction to feminist frequency]

 

[Overusedname]

Yeah you would think some guys would actually stop judging people for having ovaries by this point but no you are still ostracising us all. 42% of us. Bravo.

Because some guys are sexist asshats?

Read, and re-read my post again. You're not seeing the paradox here.

Slowly back away bro.

Though I will admit I see your point, again, the issue is a matter of openness and how welcome different demographics are to certainly activities blah blah blah gender roles societal influence cheese steak is delicious. Ya know, that.

Also, women I've met play more single player, if we're talking about HARDCOOOOORRRRRE games. (That term still confuses me. Are there hardcore movies and books, and 'casual' films that don't count?) Zelda, Final Fantasy, Mario, Metroid, Kirby, Dragonquest, Persona, dat stuff. All those games are A.) Well known and enjoyed by wide ranges of people, and B.) Gender neutral as hell.

Kinda. I mean you'r playing as men in most of them but I think Link's more universally relatable than Marcus Fenix. Not that there's anything wrong with Fenix.

Blah blah blah gender-based marketing.

Blah blah blah stuff I've said.

Blah blah blah do you still wanna play TF2 later?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Yeah you would think some guys would actually stop judging people for having ovaries by this point but no you are still ostracising us all. 42% of us. Bravo.

Because some guys are sexist asshats?

Read, and re-read my post again. You're not seeing the paradox here.

I added a bit more to make it easier to understand what I'm asking.

No one in WOW has ever told me to get back into the kitchen (apart from the time my pve guild said I couldn't pvp with them because I was a girl and so I rolled a horde and killed them all)
But mostly they were terrified they would lose their best healer.

Not every guy is sexist or harasses women but there are people who do and that's unacceptable.
I mean I'm having to sit here and justify and defend myself for loving games. I'm sick of it.

Really fucking sick of it.

And frankly Tippy I'm sick of your attitude that because women are in a minority they don't have a right to an opinion.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Perhaps women just need to embrace the ways of the community and join in the fun...
<youtube=AQnIJ-ljctk>
Offensive? Or fucking hysterical?

An okay joke. Hardly a viable solution though. What's the point of getting rid of what you hate if you have to replace it?

That sounds like a fate worse than defeat to me.

 

[Vault101]

Love your new avi.

thanks


[quote/]As fun as it is having your sex portrayed as nothing but a sex object or people naming shit girlfriend mode or having my favourite gaming character of all time raped just to excite the male audience is /sarcasm. Maybe just maybe I'm going to speak up about that. If the devs listen to me then they listen to me if they don't then I am still going to play games.[/quote]

I agree with pretty much everything you said except this..

assuming your talking about the Lara croft incident...

1. she was not raped, she was threatand and it was implied by the guy..and it made sense in context and to me seemed really no worse than somthing I see in alot of fiction

2. it was not to excite the male audience, it was to show Lara was in a tight spot, and dangerous and threatening situation(oh sure..I'm sure there are individuals who get off to that but then again there are people who get off to disney charachters)

3. I actually like the whole new direction they are taking...I honestly think its neccicary..to try and get us to empathise with a charachter rather than look at her tits..and it actually makes me a little sad that it has to be such an overblown "flame bait" inducing thing, even if its not perfect..baby steps. I hope that when the game actually games out (and if its good) we can forget about it and enjoy it