(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

Tippy

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Genuine Evil said:
Overusedname said:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.385133-From-The-Kitchen-To-The-Controller-Girl-Gamers-Exposed
I make it a point to watch /play/read anything no matter how revolting if there is something to be gained from it . but watching that video made angry , and then I got angrier for getting angry at a YouTube video and then I started writing a rebuttal and got angry from doing that ?????.. ..so yeah it didn?t go well and eventually I decided not post anything. but now that it?s been a while I?d like to say that the main point of that video the idea than men somehow can?t control themselves when they re in front of women is more offensive to guy?s then it is to girls .

OT: while we?ll always have games that are made with more of a female or male audience in mind im happy to say that all my top 10 games weren?t made for guys or for girls they were made for people and can be enjoyed equally by everyone no matter their sex .
That video...I don't know whether it is raw genius or amazing stupidity. That guy mentions a whole lot of valid points, but also a whole lot of garbage. He backs up his claims with actual evidence. His points are convincing, even if they aren't all true, he has done one hell of a job of making most of his points extremely convincing. Yes, his evidence is hand-picked. Yes, he has generalized a LOT. And I mean a LOT. Some of his "studies" need far more research, e.g. women having a smaller variance in personalities than men.

I really don't know what to say at this point since that was more or less 30 mins of getting bombarded with both huge examples of brilliant points and fallacies.

Regardless of what he has said, I hold onto my point that if females want to see better and "equal" representation in gaming, they need to drive themselves forward in large numbers, they need to prove to the community that they exist and can stand on their own.

"Why should girls need to prove anything?" I keep getting asked (it's so annoying) - maybe because it's what all guys have to do as well? The competetive gaming community is ALL about proving yourself, otherwise you're a nobody who will be trodden on regardless of your gender. For some reason, female gamers see this as an attack on them specifically.

Until female gamers make a move en-masse, to males it will come off as a small bunch of easily-offended feminists wanting to force themselves into whatever is popular at the time (i.e. gaming). I KNOW IT ISN'T TRUE. But that's the impression it's leaving on a lot of males. I personally don't agree with it, but I personally can't change it.

I don't tolerate sexist behavior because my standards in gaming don't change whether I'm playing against a guy or girl, I treat them equally.
But that's not changing the fact that there are jack-all girls playing competetive games at the moment.

As that video pointed out, a handful of women posing in videos saying "Hi, I'm a girl, and I play games!" is going to do nothing but make male gamers laugh and reject the notion even more.

They need to make their presence felt in gaming itself. Not in videos or other forms of media, not in news articles, to convince GAMERS you need to have a strong presence in GAMES, and you need to climb the ladder like everyone else while getting pelted by trash talk, discrimination and sexism - but if enough of you make it to the top, you'll be accepted into the community like everyone else. So either climb that ladder, or stay put.

Dexter111 said:
Still look like this:
Man...quite a while ago I had pointed out that one of the main issues is the blatant lack of female developers, and I had been immediately shot down by many people with comments ranging from "wrong, there are TONS of female developers!" to "doesn't matter, male developers should make games that cater to both sexes!"

And now suddenly a lot more people noticed that it's not so simple, that a lack of female interest in game development is indeed ONE of the major causes of the discrimination and inequality. So we're back to one of my initial point - women love to claim gaming but they back away from having to do actual work and make the games, or climb the competitive ladder. That's just lazy. Meanwhile males make up 90%+ of development teams, and yet feminists are trying to shoot them down because of a couple of sexist games - they're trying to force equality out of a situation that was never equal to begin with?

Not saying you're one of those people (this post isn't directed at you), but just saying that I'm happy that the message has finally got through.

Now how to deliver the rest of the messages....
 

Phasmal

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Tippy said:
They need to make their presence felt in gaming itself. Not in videos or other forms of media, not in news articles, to convince GAMERS you need to have a strong presence in GAMES, and you need to climb the ladder like everyone else while getting pelted by trash talk, discrimination and sexism - but if enough of you make it to the top, you'll be accepted into the community like everyone else. So either climb that ladder, or stay put.
Oh that's all?
Well, let me dial up the hive-mind and we'll get shit sorted.
Seriously dude. I don't control female gamers like you don't control male gamers.
It's easy for you to sit back and say `Well, I've got my recognition, come get yours!`.
And, `male gamers prove themselves all the time`?
Bollocks.
I've never seen a male gamer approach another male gamer in a game shop and demand he answer questions to prove his worthiness.

Brilliant points in that video?
Seriously?
Smaller personality variance in women?
SERIOUSLY?
Jesus christ, dude. Oh yeah, that's totes not a sexist thing to say!

Lastly, your experience is not universal.
So, you haven't seen loads of women about? You aren't everybody.
Where were you when I was playing TF2 last night? Jeez, man, it's like you're not even trying!
But then again, the dudes I was playing with last night didn't know I was a girl either. Because I don't announce it everytime I enter a game.
Also, how am I supposed to get noticed in games when you say I can't go around saying `I'm a girl`?

One last thing, I am not responsible for the career decisions of other women. This has nothing to do with how much I love games. You can love something and not work in it for many reasons.

TLDR- This is fucking dumb. Games are a medium of entertainment. They are for everyone and anyone. If any of you are struggling, I suggest you deal.
 

Fappy

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Phasmal said:
Colour-Scientist said:
Phasmal said:
Gaming since before I can remember. I must have been about... four?
Started out on the megadrive, never looked back.

It does bother me when people act like gaming is something I picked up a few minutes ago and try to explain it to me (I get these type of guys talk to me in game shops- I always considered myself to look like a geeky girl but apparently not).
Even then, I hate how you're expected to "prove" how much you like/know about games, you're expected to "look the part" and live the lifestyle. It's really common to see a guy on the internet go "Girl gamers are just looking for attention" and to get a few responses of "I play this many hours, this many times a week for the past 20 years". Which, of course, is fine but I don't see why so many people expect girls to be totally immersed in the culture in order to be considered gamers or why they're expected to justify themselves.

No one else is expected to do that.
Oh, the `pop quiz`!
GOD FORBID you not play even ONE of the games they quiz you on, you she-devil!

Thing is, I wish I had more gaming merchandise. I really do. I'm just that kind of person, but I hate the associations that come with being loud-n-proud. For example, I'm a fan of Batman, mostly the films and the games, and I'd love a batman shirt. I don't have one. Because I don't know enough about Batman to answer pop-quizzes.

I enjoy gaming and I love it when I find someone else I know also is a gamer, but I find myself being quiet about it, because I hate accusations of `fakeness` just because I'm a woman.

I really feel sorry for well-meaning, interested female newcomers. People complain ladies don't game, but at the same time do their best to keep people from getting in.
If you like Batman and you want to wear a t-shirt with Batman's symbol on it... you should do just that. I am the kind of person who loves comic books and will be snobby when I see people who have no experience reading them posting joke pictures about the Avengers on Facebook because they loved the movie so much, but you know what? Fuck me! Seriously, people are going to be snobby and elitist about things. That's just a fact of life. Yeah, women have a natural disadvantage when it comes to assimilating into "nerd culture", but you don't need to have encyclopedic knowledge to show your support and enthusiasm for something you like. If someone has a problem because you don't know the Scarecrow's real name they can go fuck themselves. They aren't worth your time.

Go out and buy a Batman shirt. Now.

:D

EDIT: Also, I endorse your use of the word "totes" in your above post.
 

JeffBergGold

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I really don't care dude. I wish people would just shut up about their gender and play video games. I really don't care if you're a girl or a guy who plays games. It's irritating when a girl announces she likes games or alludes to the her being female on a game. No one really cares, it makes something out of nothing. It also whips white knights and the guys with little female interaction into a frenzy which is unbearably annoying.
 

Tippy

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Phasmal said:
TLDR- This is fucking dumb. Games are a medium of entertainment. They are for everyone and anyone. If any of you are struggling, I suggest you deal.
I only quoted this part because it's the only part that made sense, because I don't think you read my post properly. Stay calm, I did say I didn't agree with a lot of things in that video as well.
Perhaps atleast ONE part of that video was right where he stated women are far more easily offended by just about anything while men tend to be far more resilient to getting offended. Perhaps the video was aright about women being prone to overreacting far more easily.

Anyway, I'm totally fine with the way things are right now, I'm not struggling. And I'm extremely glad that I've finally met a female gamer who feels the same way and can just go with the flow and, hold out her own - we need more like you :)

The community will realize the rise female gamers regardless of whether you announce your gender or not, that's the best part.
If females really come out with their real numbers (I think 42% is what they claimed) then it will be no time before the hardcore communities realize that most female gamers do genuinely care about the "gaming" part of the game. Chat channels will be filled with girls, etc. Heck there could even be entire female clans, imagine that!

Perhaps we'll even see more female developers take charge, it would certainly help change the viewpoint of female characters in gaming. I can't wait for it to happen!

But we still need the women to come out in numbers...big numbers, if things are to change.
 

Fappy

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Dexter111 said:
Actually I totally buy this. The top "tech school" (technically a university) in my state, Georgia Tech, has something insane like a 3:1 guy to girl ratio. All of the CS majors (and other tech related majors) I knew in college were male. I can't speak for other countries, but in the US we have very few female programmers which generally take up the bulk of most tech-oriented companies. Obviously huge corporations like EA will have enormous legal, PR/Marketing, HR, etc. departments which have a far more even spread of males to females (PR/Marketing being a field dominated by women... at least in recent years). I work at a software company which staffs probably something in the realm of 10% female programmers. We have plenty of women working in the company (probably 50/50 guy to girl), but very few female programmers.

This will likely change though. Georgia Tech's male/female ratio gets more and more even every year from what I have heard.
 

Ryotknife

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well, after reading dexters and halo's response, i guess my solution is not the silver bullet that i had hoped.

sigh, without a large influx of women on either the community's or gaming industries side of things, i do not see how creating a free and open environment for all genders is possible. There is only so much the men in the industry can do at this point, a lot of which they have already done in the past decade. There are still a few, but not many that will have a large positive effect.

That leaves the community, which is signficantly harder to control much less influence without having a position of strength or going Big Brother on their butts. At least in a timely fashion. The community has improved since 10 years ago, but its going to take a long time (at the rate the community is going) before it reaches the point we desire.
 

lowhat

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Ryotknife said:
well, after reading dexters and halo's response, i guess my solution is not the silver bullet that i had hoped.

sigh, without a large influx of women on either the community's or gaming industries side of things, i do not see how creating a free and open environment for all genders is possible. There is only so much the men in the industry can do at this point, a lot of which they have already done in the past decade. There are still a few, but not many that will have a large positive effect.

That leaves the community, which is signficantly harder to control much less influence without having a position of strength or going Big Brother on their butts. At least in a timely fashion. The community has improved since 10 years ago, but its going to take a long time (at the rate the community is going) before it reaches the point we desire.
Way to speak for yourself. Is it really so hard to just make your own community that conforms to the standards of "what we desire"(read: what you desire), rather than expect other people to change for you. I'm starting to understand that this is a very, rocket science-y difficult task for many folks, but if you don't like how an online community operates, STOP INTERACTING WITH IT FFS. If you want a Kumbaya community that kick/bans anyone who says boo, build it up, and run it however you please.

So much of this blowback is stemming from entitled little brats demanding that people change their own communities to the standards that the whiny little brat demands, and it's quite understandable that not everyone wants to change their own group to meet the squalls of outsiders.
 

Ryotknife

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lowhat said:
Ryotknife said:
well, after reading dexters and halo's response, i guess my solution is not the silver bullet that i had hoped.

sigh, without a large influx of women on either the community's or gaming industries side of things, i do not see how creating a free and open environment for all genders is possible. There is only so much the men in the industry can do at this point, a lot of which they have already done in the past decade. There are still a few, but not many that will have a large positive effect.

That leaves the community, which is signficantly harder to control much less influence without having a position of strength or going Big Brother on their butts. At least in a timely fashion. The community has improved since 10 years ago, but its going to take a long time (at the rate the community is going) before it reaches the point we desire.
Way to speak for yourself. Is it really so hard to just make your own community that conforms to the standards of "what we desire"(read: what you desire), rather than expect other people to change for you. I'm starting to understand that this is a very, rocket science-y difficult task for many folks, but if you don't like how an online community operates, STOP INTERACTING WITH IT FFS. If you want a Kumbaya community that kick/bans anyone who says boo, build it up, and run it however you please.

So much of this blowback is stemming from entitled little brats demanding that people change their own communities to the standards that the whiny little brat demands, and it's quite understandable that not everyone wants to change their own group to meet the squalls of outsiders.
You assume that when i said "we desire" that meant that every human desires. While you are entitled to your assumptions, i would just like to politely ask that you dont demonize me for them.

Also, even if those people changed, they are not changing FOR me. In truth, I am quite comfortable with my status in gaming community/culture. If they did change, it would actually HURT that status (at least in the short term), but that is something I've accepted.
 

Mauso88

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My mum always played SMB3 with me, and that was 20 years ago. If it wasn't for her, I would never have been such an avid gamer. The only reason she doesn't play games any more, is because they are not made to be fun, they are made to be super cereal.
 

Panda Mania

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So...many...assumptions. Generalizations.

What's frustrating is figuring out if they're accurate. People have provided lots of anecdotal evidence. Statistical evidence, too, but then again, statistics are tricky little things that don't always communicate the reality...

Argh! Sometimes I really hate the division between the sexes. It makes life so much harder. Wish we could eliminate categories like "men" and "women" and just become "people." :(
 

lunavixen

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I've been a video gamer since I was about 4 (point and click adventure games back then, then introduced to Final Fantasy when I was about 6). I play all sorts of games, Counter Strike Source was one of my favourite games for years, still holds a special place in my heart. I love the Mass Effect series as well, Battlefield among a lot of others. I've been collecting video games since I was 7 and have over 200, including platforms that are nearly as old as I am that still work. I've never hidden my gender in games.

If people don't like the fact that i'm capable of handing them their butts in fps games then they can bite me.
 

AngelBlackChaos

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Tippy said:
Overusedname said:
By the same logic, Men have started watching My Little Pony to impress women. I think a web comic made that comparison recently somewhere around here...hm.
That webcomic was pure sarcasm, men watch MLP because it's a great show with adorable characters and for no other reason (watching it with their partners doesn't count as trying to impress them). It's completely unrelated to this :)

Anyway back on topic, here is my one and only request for you: Please find some statistics regarding what percentage of women help DEVELOP games. Not just play them (as they're so eager to point out), I mean help in actual game development teams and studios.

Because even though I can't find any actual statistics, everytime I see a "staff photo" of game development companies I see roughly 1 female per 10 males, usually even fewer. Take Blizzard or Crytek for example.

My theory is that a large percentge of women may PLAY games, but they're not as interested in MAKING them - yet they demand equal and fair representation. They demand that male developers cater to their tastes, their wants and needs. This is of course, purely a theory and I'm yet to find actual statistics to back it up (I'm still looking, help me!).

Ideally if 40-50% of game developers were female, we would see 40-50% of games which cater to females, correct? They would feature over-sexualized males with their shirts (and maybe pants) off, female characters taking the lead, men being the victims of "female gaze", treated nothing more as objects, etc (the polar opposite of what you see in games today).

But this is FAR from the case, so something is definitely not right.

So far I remain convinced that the overwhelming majority of game developers are male (I hypothesize atleast 80-90%), and therefore they are in their full right to develop games from their perceptions and concepts.
Everyone wants representation, if possible. Who cares if the development team is 70 percent male or more? Male can show equality in games too. Trust me, there are plenty of programmers and developers who could and have. Lets just have the teams picked out for the best talent, shall we?

On your other point, I don't want games to cater to either sex, male or female. Steroided super macho men are just as annoying as simpering, whiney, DDD women with the IQ similar to a chicken. Let's just have interesting characters and games, and not just interesting male leads. Interesting female leads too.

You should give teams more credit than you do.
 

JeffBergGold

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Mythrandia said:
JeffBergGold said:
I really don't care dude. I wish people would just shut up about their gender and play video games. I really don't care if you're a girl or a guy who plays games. It's irritating when a girl announces she likes games or alludes to the her being female on a game. No one really cares, it makes something out of nothing. It also whips white knights and the guys with little female interaction into a frenzy which is unbearably annoying.
I SOOO hear you on that. If I had a dollar for every time somebody asked me if I was a female becaues I ahd a female avatar, I think I'd have at least $16,000 if you counted all the tells that I ignored, and at least $5,000 if you counted all the tells that I actually read when people asked me that question.

I think I could experience something akin to what Douglas Adams would experience if you walked up to him and asked him to explain why the answer to life, the universe, and everything was 42. I don't think he would qualify your communication with a response. I imagine that is what it's like to be an attractive female in America, is you will be targetted with lots of unsolicited communications which you can't afford to bother to qualify with a response. You have to set higher standards in terms of who you talk to, who you interact with, you can only play around so much, because you get busy going to parties where Zaphod Beeblebrox invites you to go for a ride on his spaceship. And after awhile, you can't not do spaceships. If you started out with a spaceship and then downgraded to a car, you'd be a sad sad girl. And there's no reason to be a sad girl, it's kind of like having an overpowered avatar in a mmog, you can instruct people to give you as many little green pieces of paper as they can make by dangling a fishing lure in front of them. You're like an angler fish, with a fishing lure.

I'm bored.
I get what you're saying, but in my opinion most women who play video games are not attractive to me. I get that there are guys out there (we call them "Captains") that will happily be a utility for a woman's company or companionship. Guys like that are more common than I originally thought since I had never encountered Captains until I expanded my peer group. In my original group they were sort of a myth, turns out they're real.



To me there is nothing scarier than a Captain. You never know what he'll do just for conversation.
 

AngelBlackChaos

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Tippy said:
I really don't know what to say at this point since that was more or less 30 mins of getting bombarded with both huge examples of brilliant points and fallacies.

Regardless of what he has said, I hold onto my point that if females want to see better and "equal" representation in gaming, they need to drive themselves forward in large numbers, they need to prove to the community that they exist and can stand on their own.

"Why should girls need to prove anything?" I keep getting asked (it's so annoying) - maybe because it's what all guys have to do as well? The competetive gaming community is ALL about proving yourself, otherwise you're a nobody who will be trodden on regardless of your gender. For some reason, female gamers see this as an attack on them specifically.

Until female gamers make a move en-masse, to males it will come off as a small bunch of easily-offended feminists wanting to force themselves into whatever is popular at the time (i.e. gaming). I KNOW IT ISN'T TRUE. But that's the impression it's leaving on a lot of males. I personally don't agree with it, but I personally can't change it.

I don't tolerate sexist behavior because my standards in gaming don't change whether I'm playing against a guy or girl, I treat them equally.
But that's not changing the fact that there are jack-all girls playing competetive games at the moment.

As that video pointed out, a handful of women posing in videos saying "Hi, I'm a girl, and I play games!" is going to do nothing but make male gamers laugh and reject the notion even more.

They need to make their presence felt in gaming itself. Not in videos or other forms of media, not in news articles, to convince GAMERS you need to have a strong presence in GAMES, and you need to climb the ladder like everyone else while getting pelted by trash talk, discrimination and sexism - but if enough of you make it to the top, you'll be accepted into the community like everyone else. So either climb that ladder, or stay put.

Dexter111 said:
Still look like this:
Man...quite a while ago I had pointed out that one of the main issues is the blatant lack of female developers, and I had been immediately shot down by many people with comments ranging from "wrong, there are TONS of female developers!" to "doesn't matter, male developers should make games that cater to both sexes!"

And now suddenly a lot more people noticed that it's not so simple, that a lack of female interest in game development is indeed ONE of the major causes of the discrimination and inequality. So we're back to one of my initial point - women love to claim gaming but they back away from having to do actual work and make the games, or climb the competitive ladder. That's just lazy. Meanwhile males make up 90%+ of development teams, and yet feminists are trying to shoot them down because of a couple of sexist games - they're trying to force equality out of a situation that was never equal to begin with?

Not saying you're one of those people (this post isn't directed at you), but just saying that I'm happy that the message has finally got through.

Now how to deliver the rest of the messages....
I don't believe that anyone should prove themselves in gaming unless they are in a competitive circuit. Ever heard of single player? I know for some people its all about the online multiplayer matches, but come on.

Also, I am a banker for a living. I do not do programming, nor will I just drop my career to satisfy your need for females to prove themselves and develop games. Funnily enough, I game with my friends, my relatives, and my fiance for the enjoyment of GAMING.

NOT TO PROVE MYSELF.

I have no need to, and if you feel the need to, then by all means do so. But I don't need to prove my skills in anything but my career, and that is all. I will be damned if some stranger wants to make an arbitrary ruling on if females should have equal representation in gaming if they can do coding and mapping.

If the situation was reversed, I wouldn't dream of demanding you show me your skills with a dev kit, or force you to learn how to do anything involved with developing a game. Because who am I to say your expertise isn't into something else?

Its like saying that women should have had more representatives in Congress and the Senate before they should have the right to vote.
 

Tippy

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AngelBlackChaos said:
Everyone wants representation, if possible. Who cares if the development team is 70 percent male or more? Male can show equality in games too. Trust me, there are plenty of programmers and developers who could and have. Lets just have the teams picked out for the best talent, shall we?
They certainly have, there's a big list of games which don't discriminate gender and can be enjoyed by everyone. Look at my previous posts in this thread, I even mentioned several studios that have pumped out nothing but quality games for everyone.

But I was referring to the few games which DO discriminate a bit and tend to use female characters as sex symbols, or just objects needing recue, or whatever. Like Bayonetta. Or Lollipop Chainsaw. Why did these games suddenly start receiving hate after so many years of acceptance? Because feminists suddenly found gaming (not females gamers, feminists), a fresh new male-dominated target to whip out the megaphones and say "Look how they portray us! Men are evil! Blah blah blah" all the while forgetting that development teams are 90% male, the people those games are SPECIFICALLY AIMED at are 100% male, I don't see the problem.

If female developers were to create games where MEN are treated as the sex objects, I wouldn't give a flying hoot because that game isn't aimed at me. I know it isn't. It's obvious. I'm not interested and I don't care about that game, the target demographic is free to play it and dominate men and play out their fantasies all they like, it's none of my business.

Women shouldn't barge into strip clubs and yell at all the men to be ashamed of themselves, to stop staring at the girls and get out of there. And by "club" I don't mean the entire GAMING industry is one giant strip club (far from it), I just meant those specific games targeted at males. If some development studios want to go for the low-hanging fruit, leave them be!

On your other point, I don't want games to cater to either sex, male or female. Steroided super macho men are just as annoying as simpering, whiney, DDD women with the IQ similar to a chicken. Let's just have interesting characters and games, and not just interesting male leads. Interesting female leads too.
You don't get to choose who you want as a lead. You don't get to choose which characters get developed. You don't get to choose how the characters act out, and you don't get to choose who the game caters to. You don't tell an artist how to paint his painting, you don't tell an author what to write.
That is entirely the developer's choice and creation.

Most developers are male, surprise surprise, guess which kind of personality they know best?

I've done a bit of minor game development (just programming side), if you were to tell me "alright, make an interesting and deep female lead character" I wouldn't have the first clue where to start. I'm not goddamn female. And the only SOURCE of "what girls are like" I can find is in the media, often wrongly portrayed.
You know what I would end up making? A girl who likes shoe shopping, doing her hair and make-up when she's not kicking bad guys. Yup, I'm a typical male idiot. I can't fix that. I can't exactly just copy-paste my Jane Shepherd or Samus Aran, that's not very original.

But a female developer CAN fix that. Unfortunately most of them just aren't interested in developing games. Atleast, nowhere near as interested as males are. Game studios, programming universities and design classes haven't stuck a sign on their building saying "no women allowed, if you come in we'll rape you". There's just a jarring lack of women for some reason.

AngelBlackChaos said:
I don't believe that anyone should prove themselves in gaming unless they are in a competitive circuit. Ever heard of single player? I know for some people its all about the online multiplayer matches, but come on.

Also, I am a banker for a living. I do not do programming, nor will I just drop my career to satisfy your need for females to prove themselves and develop games. Funnily enough, I game with my friends, my relatives, and my fiance for the enjoyment of GAMING.

NOT TO PROVE MYSELF.

I have no need to, and if you feel the need to, then by all means do so. But I don't need to prove my skills in anything but my career, and that is all. I will be damned if some stranger wants to make an arbitrary ruling on if females should have equal representation in gaming if they can do coding and mapping.

If the situation was reversed, I wouldn't dream of demanding you show me your skills with a dev kit, or force you to learn how to do anything involved with developing a game. Because who am I to say your expertise isn't into something else?

Its like saying that women should have had more representatives in Congress and the Senate before they should have the right to vote.
This isn't about what you do, or what I do. We're talking about ratios and percentages, not individual stories, so stop bringing it in.

I was talking about competetive multiplayer this whole time, why did you suddenly bring in singleplayer? Look, I'm glad that you stick to singleplayer games. That's perfectly fine.

But a handful females/feminists have started crying when they come across the odd game that aims itself at a male audience by over-sexualizing females, or neglects to properly develop female characters, or when they get female gamers are treated harshly in competetive environments. I relate this to:
> The lack of female developers
> The lack of interest in game development from females compared to males
> The lack of female gamers in competetive environments
> The lack of female presence in all conventions/events/tournaments/etc related to gaming
> Females getting scared away from gaming communities instead of holding their ground, further reducing their presence
> Many, many other factors

THAT was what I was talking about, that's what this thread has been about for a while now.

If you're perfectly happy with your gaming experience, then none of my posts are aimed at you - be on your merry way, you're already a happy customer, you don't need to prove anything and that's GOOD. You are fine with the state of gaming - you're not complaining and enjoy games for what they are, so I have nothing to say to you! Game on :)
 

AngelBlackChaos

New member
Aug 3, 2010
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Tippy said:
AngelBlackChaos said:
Everyone wants representation, if possible. Who cares if the development team is 70 percent male or more? Male can show equality in games too. Trust me, there are plenty of programmers and developers who could and have. Lets just have the teams picked out for the best talent, shall we?
They certainly have, there's a big list of games which don't discriminate gender and can be enjoyed by everyone. Look at my previous posts in this thread, I even mentioned several studios that have pumped out nothing but quality games for everyone.

But I was referring to the few games which DO discriminate a bit and tend to use female characters as sex symbols, or just objects needing recue, or whatever. Like Bayonetta. Or Lollipop Chainsaw. Why did these games suddenly start receiving hate after so many years of acceptance? Because feminists suddenly found gaming (not females gamers, feminists), a fresh new male-dominated target to whip out the megaphones and say "Look how they portray us! Men are evil! Blah blah blah" all the while forgetting that development teams are 90% male, the people those games are SPECIFICALLY AIMED at are 100% male, I don't see the problem.

If female developers were to create games where MEN are treated as the sex objects, I wouldn't give a flying hoot because that game isn't aimed at me. I know it isn't. It's obvious. I'm not interested and I don't care about that game, the target demographic is free to play it and dominate men and play out their fantasies all they like, it's none of my business.

Women shouldn't barge into strip clubs and yell at all the men to be ashamed of themselves, to stop staring at the girls and get out of there. And by "club" I don't mean the entire GAMING industry is one giant strip club (far from it), I just meant those specific games targeted at males. If some development studios want to go for the low-hanging fruit, leave them be!

On your other point, I don't want games to cater to either sex, male or female. Steroided super macho men are just as annoying as simpering, whiney, DDD women with the IQ similar to a chicken. Let's just have interesting characters and games, and not just interesting male leads. Interesting female leads too.
You don't get to choose who you want as a lead. You don't get to choose which characters get developed. You don't get to choose how the characters act out, and you don't get to choose who the game caters to. You don't tell an artist how to paint his painting, you don't tell an author what to write.
That is entirely the developer's choice and creation.

Most developers are male, surprise surprise, guess which kind of personality they know best?

I've done a bit of minor game development (just programming side), if you were to tell me "alright, make an interesting and deep female lead character" I wouldn't have the first clue where to start. I'm not goddamn female. And the only SOURCE of "what girls are like" I can find is in the media, often wrongly portrayed.
You know what I would end up making? A girl who likes shoe shopping, doing her hair and make-up when she's not kicking bad guys. Yup, I'm a typical male idiot. I can't fix that. I can't exactly just copy-paste my Jane Shepherd or Samus Aran, that's not very original.

But a female developer CAN fix that. Unfortunately most of them just aren't interested in developing games. Atleast, nowhere near as interested as males are. Game studios, programming universities and design classes haven't stuck a sign on their building saying "no women allowed, if you come in we'll rape you". There's just a jarring lack of women for some reason.
As I have said before, you give a stunning lack of credit to males in the game industry. Just because you have no clue what an interesting female lead would be, doesn't mean someone else would not. In fact some have, and those games are, suprise suprise, interesting to males AND females.

And idiot does not need anything to quantify it.

Haven't played the chainsaw game myself, but bayonetta wasn't offensive to me. Yes, it teased guys with revealing outfits, etc, but I found bayonetta herself to be far more complicated than the random brainless girls that get rescued from time to time. At least bayonetta had more intelligence than that.
 

The Ubermensch

New member
Mar 6, 2012
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Whoa whoa whoa, everyone shut the fuck up for a second

40% of all gamers on the internet are female? You sir are in violation of the rules of the internet.

((Shit like this will never stop being an issue. Furries, Bronies, Gamer Grils, Otaku, Bikers, Carfags (As a biker, car enthusiasts are fags. STOP TRYING TO KILL ME!), Christians, Athiests, Republicans, Liberals, Conservatives, Libertarians...

So what I'm going to do is I'm going to leave this here and tell you to skip to 1 hour ten minutes for my point.


))
 

AngelBlackChaos

New member
Aug 3, 2010
220
0
0
Tippy said:
AngelBlackChaos said:
Everyone wants representation, if possible. Who cares if the development team is 70 percent male or more? Male can show equality in games too. Trust me, there are plenty of programmers and developers who could and have. Lets just have the teams picked out for the best talent, shall we?
They certainly have, there's a big list of games which don't discriminate gender and can be enjoyed by everyone. Look at my previous posts in this thread, I even mentioned several studios that have pumped out nothing but quality games for everyone.

But I was referring to the few games which DO discriminate a bit and tend to use female characters as sex symbols, or just objects needing recue, or whatever. Like Bayonetta. Or Lollipop Chainsaw. Why did these games suddenly start receiving hate after so many years of acceptance? Because feminists suddenly found gaming (not females gamers, feminists), a fresh new male-dominated target to whip out the megaphones and say "Look how they portray us! Men are evil! Blah blah blah" all the while forgetting that development teams are 90% male, the people those games are SPECIFICALLY AIMED at are 100% male, I don't see the problem.

If female developers were to create games where MEN are treated as the sex objects, I wouldn't give a flying hoot because that game isn't aimed at me. I know it isn't. It's obvious. I'm not interested and I don't care about that game, the target demographic is free to play it and dominate men and play out their fantasies all they like, it's none of my business.

Women shouldn't barge into strip clubs and yell at all the men to be ashamed of themselves, to stop staring at the girls and get out of there. And by "club" I don't mean the entire GAMING industry is one giant strip club (far from it), I just meant those specific games targeted at males. If some development studios want to go for the low-hanging fruit, leave them be!

On your other point, I don't want games to cater to either sex, male or female. Steroided super macho men are just as annoying as simpering, whiney, DDD women with the IQ similar to a chicken. Let's just have interesting characters and games, and not just interesting male leads. Interesting female leads too.
You don't get to choose who you want as a lead. You don't get to choose which characters get developed. You don't get to choose how the characters act out, and you don't get to choose who the game caters to. You don't tell an artist how to paint his painting, you don't tell an author what to write.
That is entirely the developer's choice and creation.

Most developers are male, surprise surprise, guess which kind of personality they know best?

I've done a bit of minor game development (just programming side), if you were to tell me "alright, make an interesting and deep female lead character" I wouldn't have the first clue where to start. I'm not goddamn female. And the only SOURCE of "what girls are like" I can find is in the media, often wrongly portrayed.
You know what I would end up making? A girl who likes shoe shopping, doing her hair and make-up when she's not kicking bad guys. Yup, I'm a typical male idiot. I can't fix that. I can't exactly just copy-paste my Jane Shepherd or Samus Aran, that's not very original.

But a female developer CAN fix that. Unfortunately most of them just aren't interested in developing games. Atleast, nowhere near as interested as males are. Game studios, programming universities and design classes haven't stuck a sign on their building saying "no women allowed, if you come in we'll rape you". There's just a jarring lack of women for some reason.

AngelBlackChaos said:
I don't believe that anyone should prove themselves in gaming unless they are in a competitive circuit. Ever heard of single player? I know for some people its all about the online multiplayer matches, but come on.

Also, I am a banker for a living. I do not do programming, nor will I just drop my career to satisfy your need for females to prove themselves and develop games. Funnily enough, I game with my friends, my relatives, and my fiance for the enjoyment of GAMING.

NOT TO PROVE MYSELF.

I have no need to, and if you feel the need to, then by all means do so. But I don't need to prove my skills in anything but my career, and that is all. I will be damned if some stranger wants to make an arbitrary ruling on if females should have equal representation in gaming if they can do coding and mapping.

If the situation was reversed, I wouldn't dream of demanding you show me your skills with a dev kit, or force you to learn how to do anything involved with developing a game. Because who am I to say your expertise isn't into something else?

Its like saying that women should have had more representatives in Congress and the Senate before they should have the right to vote.
This isn't about what you do, or what I do. We're talking about ratios and percentages, not individual stories, so stop bringing it in.

I was talking about competetive multiplayer this whole time, why did you suddenly bring in singleplayer? Look, I'm glad that you stick to singleplayer games. That's perfectly fine.

But females/feminists start crying when they come across the odd game that over-sexualizes females, or neglects to properly develop female characters, or when they get harsh treatment in competetive environments. THAT was what I was talking about, that's what this thread has been about for a while now.

If you're perfectly happy with your gaming experience, then none of my posts are aimed at you - be on your merry way, you're already a happy customer, you don't need to prove anything and that's GOOD. You are fine with the state of gaming - you're not complaining and enjoy games for what they are, so I hav enothing to say to you! Game on :)
This thread is about how women are not new to gaming, so why the sudden vitriol about us being around, when WE HAVE BEEN AROUND. THAT was the subject. You brought in competitive environments, and sexual harassment in those environments. Seeing as how I wasn't there, I cannot judge, but mistreating a fellow competitor for anything is quite annoying. Same with the "ginger" crap. or making fun of how fat someone is at a tournament. There is a level of sportsmanship to be maintained.

And don't assume I stick to anything. I play various genres and modes, as well as other girls.The point is it shouldn't matter. Gaming is about people, so it should be equal to all people. Stop treating women like aliens that need to prove themselves so that they can come into your world. We've been here.

We played the first game consoles, we have broken controllers, we have set up gaming rigs, we have our favorite and most hated games of all time. We are gamers too. We are among you, HAVE been among you, and have no need to prove ourselves. Gamers are male and female, gay and straight. Doesn't matter what the sex of the player is.