(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

Baconmonster723

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This is a little off topic, but it seems that harassment in gaming is a big issues for most women so I'll give my totally irrelevant and completely useless opinion on the matter so that I can feel I contributed something. :D

Grow some thick skin, hunker down, and get out there women. Prove you're 42% of the gaming population and the respect will come. Being harassed is no excuse. I've been playing games for almost 2 decades now and I've been harassed by people since I was 8 and I first started playing MMOs. Being worried someone is gonna tell you to go back to the kitchen or make them a sandwich is not going to solve anything. The faster you learn to bite back the quicker you'll find that ignorant sexists, trolls, and general malcontents lose interest. Multiplayer communities are full of online bullies and the fastest way to shut a bully up is to punch right back. Never stop fighting back, you have as much right to be there as they do. Let them know and kick their ass.

I can't begin to count the number of times I've been called a f****t, and many other choice words that I'd rather not get suspended over. Yet I know what I am and I'm not any of those things so they don't weigh on me. But I'll be damned if I let this kid go to beat on someone who's not willing to let them have it. Maybe it's from playing Eve Online for years, but you have to fight back when someone griefs, laying there and taking it solves nothing.

Maybe I'm just used to it, guys basically thrash on each other all the time, it's what we do. For the most part we all want to be Alphas so we break down the others to be top dog. I personally only let people have it if they deserve it, but I have given a fair number of tongue lashings. Also, for the love of God gentlemen stop protecting women because they're women. Be backup for them, but back them up like you would any gamer. White Knighting gets really old, really fast. It's not a terrible thing to do but the more you protect someone from the bad things the worse it is when they must face them on their own. Plus most women don't need your protection or my protection, they just need to know that they aren't alone in the fight. Don't stand in front of them, stand beside them.
 

Tippy

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Baconmonster723 said:
Grow some thick skin, hunker down, and get out there women. Prove you're 42% of the gaming population and the respect will come. Being harassed is no excuse. I've been playing games for almost 2 decades now and I've been harassed by people since I was 8 and I first started playing MMOs. Being worried someone is gonna tell you to go back to the kitchen or make them a sandwich is not going to solve anything. The faster you learn to bite back the quicker you'll find that ignorant sexists, trolls, and general malcontents lose interest. Multiplayer communities are full of online bullies and the fastest way to shut a bully up is to punch right back. Never stop fighting back, you have as much right to be there as they do. Let them know and kick their ass.

I can't begin to count the number of times I've been called a f****t, and many other choice words that I'd rather not get suspended over. Yet I know what I am and I'm not any of those things so they don't weigh on me. But I'll be damned if I let this kid go to beat on someone who's not willing to let them have it. Maybe it's from playing Eve Online for years, but you have to fight back when someone griefs, laying there and taking it solves nothing.

Maybe I'm just used to it, guys basically thrash on each other all the time, it's what we do. For the most part we all want to be Alphas so we break down the others to be top dog. I personally only let people have it if they deserve it, but I have given a fair number of tongue lashings. Also, for the love of God gentlemen stop protecting women because they're women. Be backup for them, but back them up like you would any gamer. White Knighting gets really old, really fast. It's not a terrible thing to do but the more you protect someone from the bad things the worse it is when they must face them on their own. Plus most women don't need your protection or my protection, they just need to know that they aren't alone in the fight. Don't stand in front of them, stand beside them.
Thank you, this person understand the roots of the issue and the solution (well, atleast a large part of the solution) <3

*hands you several cookies*
 

Overusedname

Emcee: the videogame video guy
Jun 26, 2012
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Tippy said:
Because your fellow female gamers certainly aren't there for you, nowhere near in the numbers they claim to have - they're too busy avoiding the topic, avoiding the community and hiding themselves. They're too busy letting 0.1% of female gamers desperately try to speak for the remaining 41.9%.
Majority wins.
You've been in an endless loop for like...3 pages bro.

"I've never met female gamers which means they barely exist and the dozens of statistics are lying, it's hopeless anyway, they're anonymous so why bother calling it out, I have no problem with whats happening cause I'm a guy, so it's all up to women."

To be perfectly blunt: I don't think you've been exposed to discrimination. On any personal level whatsoever. Now, that's a good thing, it's nice that less people are exposed to it. Now I'm a white, straight male, but I've seen my friends get shit for being born wrong all the time.

And THAT'S how it affects me. That pisses me off, and I can't believe it doesn't piss you off.

But you are, in fact, speaking as a male gamer who thinks they understand precisely everything about what's it's like to be a grown women who can't go into a server without being accused of ulterior motives. This is why discrimination is annoying: It adds profound discomfort to even the tiniest little event. Gay people can't just go into a cake shop and be guaranteed they can buy a wedding cake without getting thrown out or harassed. Black people are still likely to be singled out based solely on race by law enforcement. And women to this day are generalized and have dozens of pseudo scientists with no degrees in what they claim to be studying saying things like 'women have less personality diversity by far' and 'are genetically programmed to overreact emotionally.' None of these statements have ever been confirmed by actual trained, credible psychologists.

Men control culture because they always have. That's how it's always been. It's not because we earned it, it's because we can't shake our prehistoric notions of patriarchy. Several studies from the last hundred years confirm it time and time again. Men hire men based on credibility for the work, men hire women based on appearance. That is not a good thing for women, and idiots who happen to be attractive happen to keep representing women in the work place, thus women are generalized and labeled as less competent, and the cycle somehow 'justifies' itself in the subconscious mind. Unless you know anything about why women REALLY don't have as many job or college opportunities, I suggest you stop speaking as if you do. It's a large part of the reason no one but self-described alpha's have agreed with you on this thread thus far.

Gender determines next to nothing of someone's actual identity. I can tell you I've met quite a few people who act nothing like their gender, or see themselves as utterly genderless, or don't let the stereotypes define them at all. And no, they aren't transgender. A lot of marketing, cultural and psychological research suggests that gender identity is something society teaches us. That's the point: There isn't a difference. That's why it's stupid that only women should help women. They are not an invisible ghost that exists in an alternate reality that doesn't effect us in anyway whatsoever. They. Are. Us. Drop the segregation, or at least tone it down. You claim to see the benefit of female perspective in the industry, but fail to see that if men don't change their behavior, it will NEVER happen. Because men currently control this industry, which is how 'old-boys' clubs work.

Here's the cycle of a million industries: Men start an industry because they make more money and are more likely to be accepted at colleges regardless of how many women were just as qualified, then the men proceed to hire more men with the same credentials for the same reasons, the cycle continues and then men blame women for not trying.

They do. And they're actively discouraged on both small and grand scales. From the sexist in every server to the I.T. professor who won't accept A or B student for not being pretty or charming enough, to the simple fact that society encourages men to be the ones in tech and math because it's 'normal'.

And with all due respect you repeatedly deny facts confirmed by several surveys including one by the ECA, the most trusted and influential Electronic technology news and media association in America. And they update the survey once every one or two years and the female percentage is at 47% at the moment. They have, again, confirmed that while this statistic includes 'casual games', most of those women play mainstream games. The ones you and I do. And MEN PLAY CASUAL GAMES TOO. That factors into our percentage as well.

And here's the thing about ECA: It's an army of hundreds of people whose career is to track demographics and news in electronic entertainment. And with all due respect, you're a guy on a forum who happens plays games. Why are you trying to make yourself out to be the more credible one?

Obviously women need to pull their weight: and many are! And most would be fully willing to if there were more guys who go out of their way to smack some sense into every sexist they come across.

The majority needs to go out of their way to accept the minority. That's how progress in civil rights and equality has worked since the dawn of time. Again, Black people could have complained for years, they could've protested as hard as they could, but if there was never a white person to stand along side them, the progress never would have happened. Without violence anyway.

TL DR: There is not reason to not make a sexist feel bad EVERYTIME it happens, and it's the only way any thing will ever improve.
 

DevilWithaHalo

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Perhaps women just need to embrace the ways of the community and join in the fun...
<youtube=AQnIJ-ljctk>
Offensive? Or fucking hysterical?
 

Tippy

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Mortai Gravesend said:
That;s utterly retarded nonsense. We shouldn't expect only women to stand up for her, we can expect men not to be sexist pieces of shit. It's utterly irrelevant if she was the only women or there were 1000.
Expect it all you like.

Expect crime to vanish.
Expect racism to vanish.
Expect poverty to vanish.
Surely expectations alone are enough to set the world right! Correct?

Again, nothing but idealogy vs what actually happens. I'm giving you a realistic solution (for female gamers to drive themselves forward in large numbers to reflect their true strength and representation), while you're trying to argue back with idealogies and expectations along the lines of "but...well...people should be nice to each other! Kittens and rainbows!".

So yeah, keep expecting it.

Please don't act like sexism is for men. Maybe YOU like it.
Sexism =/= liking boobs. When a guy goes out to buy Beach Volleyball and a girl yells at him "hey don't buy that, that game is sexist!" you know what he's going to reply? "But it has boobs in it. I want to play it. Male developers made it for people like me."
Do you know how well that game did?

Review scores:
Game Revolution - B+
GamePro - 5 of 5
GameSpot - 6 of 10
GameSpy - 4 of 5
IGN - 9.2 of 10
Official Xbox Magazine - 8.4 of 10

I'm sorry, weren't 42% of gamers (who should be female according to ) not supposed to like that game?
Shouldn't 42% of the reviewers (who should also be female according to statistics) have given the game negative reviews?

It's utterly asinine to whine about how such games have a RIGHT to exist anyway. No one is taking away their right to exist by criticizing them, stop whining like they are. No, they're criticizing flaws in them and now we have to get all these tears over how you can't dare criticize it, it has a right to exist! Boohoo.
Would you call stuff like this criticism, or a movement to stop games which wrongly depict females altogether:
http://www.feministfrequency.com/

^ Is that site criticizing games, or trying to do a heck of a lot more? I'm not saying it's a wrong site. I'm just wondering what you call "criticism" and how far feminist gamers (or whatever you want to call those groups of females) are willing to push it.

No, it's people like you who refuse to do anything except complain about how women aren't doing enough to end it.
What do you want men to do exactly, sorry? Are we back to idealistic expectations vs realistic solutions? You want female gamers to keep hiding their faces and men to suddenly change their minds and come to your defense if another male acts sexist against you?

So basically you're asking for white knights. Alright then, I'll do that.

"How dare you mock thee damsel! Take back your mocking, sexist words you cowards - I shall defend my beautiful damsel with my sword and shield! Fear not Lady Gravesend, I am here for your protection. No sexual harrassment shall befall your beautiful ears or your tender heart, for I shall defend thee."

There, I did what I could. Feeling safe now?
 

Ryotknife

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Genuine Evil said:
Tippy said:
Genuine Evil said:
Yes sexual harassment will happen and when it does happen it should called out and ridiculed .
To use your example of gun crime , yes gun crime does happen , and do you know what happens to people who commit gun crimes? They go to fucking prison .
If your argument is ? It?s going to happen anyway so why are you making a big deal out it??. then im afraid im going to have to reuse that image

If not then explain you position
Yes, they go to prison.

Do you what happens when one person harasses (sexually, racially, whatever) on the internet or over voice chat? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Again, welcome to the real world.

Criminals go to prison because they an absolute minority, causing havoc on the majority of the of society (and the law) who are all against crime.
Majority wins.

YOU, on the other hand, are an absolute minority fighting an invisible battle against a completely anonymous majority who doesn't respect you. See the difference?
Who will you single out? Who will you ridicule, who will you punish? Most importantly, who is backing you up, where is your support? When someone yells at you "go make me a sandwich", what's going to happen to him?
Do you want his fellow male gamers to suddenly turn on him, ridicule him and effectively become your white knights? As much as female gamers hate the concept of white knights, you certainly seem to be asking for it.

Because your fellow female gamers certainly aren't there for you, nowhere near in the numbers they claim to have - they're too busy avoiding the topic, avoiding the community and hiding themselves. They're too busy letting 0.1% of female gamers desperately try to speak for the remaining 41.9%.
Majority wins.

Also at this point I can see you're just trying to provoke a stronger reaction by using meme images, and this is called "trolling".

Goodbye.
We weren?t talking about the internet we were talking about the cross assault case so don?t try to change the subject .
Anyway you not really leaving any room for a discussion here since your argument is completely without evidence and is based on imaginary facts . You keep claiming you are the majority yet give no evince to support your claim , you also seem to think being part of a majority makes you right ????. It desnt.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

but no way am i letting you have the last word on this , so here read this .
sexual harassment is not without consequence

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s3_sexual_assault/
http://www.unc.edu/courses/2010spring/law/357c/001/internetharassment/internet-harassment.html
http://www.westerncape.gov.za/eng/pubs/guides/S/63925/5
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/sexual_harassment.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment

As for ?Who will you single out?? well for now it?s him
His fuck deserved everything he got and more .


but whatever anyone who ends his argument with ?Majority wins. Goodbye? is clearly grasping at straws =)

EDIT:I like how you are trying to run away from a discussion by crying ?troll ?
except you were trolling. Not maliciously, of course, but you did make up a ridiculous claim in an effort to gain a reaction not only from him, but from the people who read his post. It was a smear campaign.

by putting words in his mouth and suggesting he is in an extremist stance when he has given zero indication (when in fact he has given every indication of being on the OTHER side, if anything) of this is unjustly demonizing him. He has been trying his best to toe the line of the issue.

At WORST, he has been discussing this issue from the stance of an impartial OBSERVER.

Now, this next part has nothing to do with you specifically. In this thread we have many people on mostly two sides. Each side is pointing the finger at the other, expecting the other side to do all of the work because they feel their own side shouldnt have to.

One side will see the argument as "the Enlightened/reasonable vs the Sexists." They are wrong. The other side will see as "the Status Quo vs those who want to unjustly change the status quo". They too, are also wrong in my opinion.

I want for both genders to not only have equal population, but equal representation and relative power to one another in the gaming industry. Why? Because the women will increase the potential talent pool and bring their own unique perspective which will help move the industry forward. More female gamers will increase the available pool of women whom i can share this connection with in a partner. So when you think about it, I would like the industry to change to accommodate women more for entirely selfish reasons, the fact that it also benefits women is a plus.

There are men who would like to see it change, who would like to help. But the fact remains that men do not HAVE to change the industry. Women (as a group, not as individuals) will have to show a commitment to EQUALLY share the burden and responsibility of not only the gaming industry, but the community itself. To ask men do to the majority of the work to enact changes that benefit women the most when men dont have to is not only unreasonable, it is immoral.

Like i said, there are plenty of men who would be willing to help, but they cant do it without women's help. Most of us know that women are fully capable of doing this, the begining of the feminist movement proves they can.
 

Overusedname

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Jun 26, 2012
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Ryotknife said:
Like i said, there are plenty of men who would be willing to help, but they cant do it without women's help.
In my experience (as a guy), it's the other way around.

Women want to improve their standing, but men don't care or help at all.

Which is my (and several other poster's) problem with what Tippy keeps saying. He makes it look like he's that type of guy.

I agree with you. We gotta do SOMETHING ya know. That's how acceptance works. But women are kinda...discouraged right now, to say the least.
 

psyco

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Baconmonster723 said:
Maybe I'm just used to it, guys basically thrash on each other all the time, it's what we do. For the most part we all want to be Alphas so we break down the others to be top dog. I personally only let people have it if they deserve it, but I have given a fair number of tongue lashings.
No one here (or anywhere that I have seen as far as gaming discussions go) is actually against trash talking. Call your fellow gamers noobs, call them idiots if you love that, tell them to l2p or go to hello kitty land or something. Brag when you crush them in pvp? Definitely!

What people are, however, objecting to is the personal side. I doubt that you would use your knowledge that one of your fellow gamers is gay to constantly cuss him out about exactly that. Or someone that is adopted how its no surprise his real parents didn't want him.
Of course you wouldn't do that... (at least, I sincerely hope so o.o)
So why do it with women? With gender?

As to women growing more thick-skinned... Hm. Imagine that you go outside to your job/school/whathaveyou and every time you smile at someone, there is a chance that they will step on your foot. Not every time, of course, but this happens at least once a day I would think. After YEARS of this your foot probably gets mighty sore. Might even break once or twice. Damnit, why can't people just pay a little more attention to where they are stepping? Just a tiny little bit... Even worse, some of those toe-steppers are telling you its your fault for smiling! :-/ You might start to feel wary about smiling, yes? Maybe?
Now imagine you go to a completely different location (which, if you aren't following me, would be the internet in this analogy) you meet new people there. Great, right? But... do you smile at them?

I am probably not the best person (or had the best analogy) for this, but maybe this helped nonetheless.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Men have started watching my little pony to impress woman? lol. Thats just pathetic, i cant accept that....maybe in 20 years time. As for woman playing games, cant we go over this already. Girls have always played games as far back as C64 (me and my sisters played it.) My female friend has her own gaming website. Why cant people get over the fact that gaming is a hobbey and both sexes enjoy it.
 

Ryotknife

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Overusedname said:
Ryotknife said:
Like i said, there are plenty of men who would be willing to help, but they cant do it without women's help.
In my experience (as a guy), it's the other way around.

Women want to improve their standing, but men don't care or help at all.

Which is my (and several other poster's) problem with what Tippy keeps saying. He makes it look like he's that type of guy.

I agree with you. We gotta do SOMETHING ya know. That's how acceptance works. But women are kinda...discouraged right now, to say the least.
Well, if men dont care or help at all, whiteknighting wouldnt be as looked down as it currently is. There are people on both sides who are actively trying to help, but they are being resisted by both sides somewhat in some manner. Some men would see a white knight as anything ranging from traitor, pathetic, rocking the boat, to two faced. some women would label a white knight as pretentious, chauvenistic pig who feels the desire to protect women, because women dont need a man to protect them. So you are kinda damned by both sides if you do, damned by both sides if you dont. It is a lose-lose:lose-lose situation.

But honestly, what can we, as men, do about the situation? take the megaphone away from the sexists? Okay, we can actually do that. It would be much easier with regular censorship rather than peer censorship, but it is still possible. But is that enough?
 

Tippy

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Overusedname said:
You've been in an endless loop for like...3 pages bro.

"I've never met female gamers which means they barely exist and the dozens of statistics are lying, it's hopeless anyway, they're anonymous so why bother calling it out, I have no problem with whats happening cause I'm a guy, so it's all up to women."

To be perfectly blunt: I don't think you've been exposed to discrimination. On any personal level whatsoever. Now, that's a good thing, it's nice that less people are exposed to it. Now I'm a white, straight male, but I've seen my friends get shit for being born wrong all the time.

And THAT'S how it affects me. That pisses me off, and I can't believe it doesn't piss you off.
If I got pissed off everytime something discriminatory happened in the world, I would probably die on the spot from permanently-pissed-off-syndrome :p

But you are, in fact, speaking as a male gamer who thinks they understand precisely everything about what's it's like to be a grown women who can't go into a server without being accused of ulterior motives. This is why discrimination is annoying: It adds profound discomfort to even the tiniest little event. Gay people can't just go into a cake shop and be guaranteed they can buy a wedding cake without getting thrown out or harassed. Black people are still likely to be singled out based solely on race by law enforcement. And women to this day are generalized and have dozens of pseudo scientists with no degrees in what they claim to be studying saying things like 'women have less personality diversity by far' and 'are genetically programmed to overreact emotionally.' None of these statements have ever been confirmed by actual trained, credible psychologists.
And yet this discrimination exists. And yet gays and blacks are out there, showing their faces, proud to be who they are, moving in huge groups and showing the word their strength and existence, leading huge marches, physically making a move because they were the minority against a majority.

Guess what female gamers have done so far? Made a website or two. Made a couple of videos. Yelled at some developers for making a sexist game, tried to feed them to the media. Thrown a female or two into an event populated almost entirely by males, with no other females to support them.

They have done exactly what nobody cares about, they have done exactly the opposite of making a huge physical, noticeable move, they are still hiding. Men have been doing it for years. I could show you endless evidence of large numbers of male gamers enjoying gaming together, but I can find little or no evidence of females doing the same thing.

Men control culture because they always have. That's how it's always been. It's not because we earned it, it's because we can't shake our prehistoric notions of patriarchy. Several studies from the last hundred years confirm it time and time again. Men hire men based on credibility for the work, men hire women based on appearance.
That is not a good thing for women, and idiots who happen to be attractive happen to keep representing women in the work place, thus women are generalized and labeled as less competent, and the cycle somehow 'justifies' itself in the subconscious mind. Unless you know anything about why women REALLY don't have as many job or college opportunities, I suggest you stop speaking as if you do. It's a large part of the reason no one but self-described alpha's have agreed with you on this thread thus far.
But that still doesn't answer WHY men controlled culture and continue to do so in many aspects of life (or regions of the world).
You're right, we didn't earn it. But we proved we could do it. We showed it. Do you understand that? Probably not, so let me spell it out:

If women were 100% equal to men, the world would have almost never seen any period of male dominance.

In the last 5000+ years, women would've fought back and proved they were equally as inventive, equally as productive, equally as strong (body and mind), equally as capable, etc etc etc. Women would've always had an equal say in society, always been able to vote, always had equal privileges. But that did NOT happen. Men stayed in power, and continue to stay in power in many aspects of life. WHY? Please, do answer (and a decent answer, not "because men are jerks").

Eventually you will have to say it, I'm not going to say it. You started this, you brought it up, so now answer it. Also, keep in mind that this is a dangerous and somewhat irrelevant topic to bring up in terms of video gaming. I don't condone it.

Gender determines next to nothing of someone's actual identity. I can tell you I've met quite a few people who act nothing like their gender, or see themselves as utterly genderless, or don't let the stereotypes define them at all. And no, they aren't transgender. A lot of marketing, cultural and psychological research suggests that gender identity is something society teaches us. That's the point: There isn't a difference. That's why it's stupid that only women should help women. They are not an invisible ghost that exists in an alternate reality that doesn't effect us in anyway whatsoever. They. Are. Us. Drop the segregation, or at least tone it down. You claim to see the benefit of female perspective in the industry, but fail to see that if men don't change their behavior, it will NEVER happen. Because men currently control this industry, which is how 'old-boys' clubs work.
I admit it's both a combination of men's behavior and women's reluctance to drive themselves forward. I put more pressure on the latter because it's a more realistic approach, it's more likely to happen if women truly make up a whopping 42% of gamers. You tell me why it hasn't happened yet, you tell me why it didn't happen 10 years ago if this thread truly implies that "women are not new to gaming, 42%, etc".

Here's the cycle of a million industries: Men start an industry because they make more money and are more likely to be accepted at colleges regardless of how many women were just as qualified, then the men proceed to hire more men with the same credentials for the same reasons, the cycle continues and then men blame women for not trying.
You know that bolded part? That's utterly wrong. You're basically saying "Thomas Edison invented the light bulb because he made more money". What garbage, he invented the light bulb SO WE COULD HAVE LIGHT BULBS. Men invented and popularized gaming SO WE COULD HAVE GAMING. Are you seriously convinced that all inventions and innovations are brought in because their inventors get PAID better? Since when did salaries translate to ideas, concepts and innovation?
Are you saying Bill Gates invented Windows because women weren't getting paid enough to come up with the IDEA of Windows? What nonsense.

Today's developed countries see an equal amount of opportunity given to males and females in most universities. You make it sound as if women are basically kicked out of Oxford and told "sorry, we want men. Next!".

They do. And they're actively discouraged on both small and grand scales. From the sexist in every server to the I.T. professor who won't accept A or B student for not being pretty or charming enough, to the simple fact that society encourages men to be the ones in tech and math because it's 'normal'.
It's "normal" because men have shown more of an interest in tech/ math than women. Men have shown more of an interest in gaming than women. Nobody is stopping women from crossing the border, some women already have. But more women aren't following suit, and if they are it's at a very slow pace OR they keep hiding.

And with all due respect you repeatedly deny facts confirmed by several surveys including one by the ECA, the most trusted and influential Electronic technology news and media association in America. And they update the survey once every one or two years and the female percentage is at 47% at the moment. They have, again, confirmed that while this statistic includes 'casual games', most of those women play mainstream games. The ones you and I do. And MEN PLAY CASUAL GAMES TOO. That factors into our percentage as well.

And here's the thing about ECA: It's an army of hundreds of people whose career is to track demographics and news in electronic entertainment. And with all due respect, you're a guy on a forum who happens plays games. Why are you trying to make yourself out to be the more credible one?
I'm not. I'm just 1 guy asking for some visual proof I can see/feel, is it too much to ask if the statistics are true? So far nobody, and I mean nobody in this thread has brought up anything other than the same ECA stastistic. 42% this, 42% that. And then I bombard them with videos/photos/experiences, I even WELCOME them to find whatever they can and show me some visible proof. And then they either quiet down, or try to dodge the question (like you just did), saying "umm..err...that's irrelevant" or "because men are sexist jerks" or "but ECA said it's 42%, it's official!"

I'm bored of this statistic that nobody can back up, nobody can see, nobody can feel, nobody can experience. It leaves nothing for discussion and all I can say is "alright fine, 42% it is, whatever" and walk away shaking my head.

Obviously women need to pull their weight: and many are! And most would be fully willing to if there were more guys who go out of their way to smack some sense into every sexist they come across.
No. If you were walking in the mall and you saw a man saying "dammit woman, stop being an idiot" to a woman (you don't know either of them), are you going to barge in and yell "hey that's sexist! She has a name, don't call her "woman"!. Going to smack some sense into that sexist now, are we? Why should guys go out of their way to shield women from sexist mocks? Can't they hold their own? And when we do shield them, why do they get offended saying "I don't need defending, hero, buzz off".
If you hear a random woman say "bah, I swear all men are stupid" to her friend, do you expect another nearby woman come up to her, call her a sexist and smack some sense into her? What the hell?

The majority needs to go out of their way to accept the minority. That's how progress in civil rights and equality has worked since the dawn of time. Again, Black people could have complained for years, they could've protested as hard as they could, but if there was never a white person to stand along side them, the progress never would have happened. Without violence anyway.
But black people made a MOVE en-masse. They were seen EVERYWHERE. They got themselves NOTICED. They got their PRESENCE FELT. They showed what they were CAPABLE OF.

Female gamers so far have done none of that. They refuse to be seen anywhere. They hide their numbers. They don't their presence felt in society, letting a tiny group of females do all the talking for them. They refuse to enter game development, their interests lie elsewhere.

I said this before, I can't help defend someone who barely even exists. Female gamers can't be defended if such a tiny amount of them are representing them. They can't be defended if they are almost never heard on voice chat, or seen in gaming events. Their "preference" doesn't matter, like I said, ratios and percentages. 42% is a fucking huge percentage, they shoud be seen everywhere for goodness sake.

By the way, welcome to BlizzCon:
 

Ryotknife

New member
Oct 15, 2011
1,687
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psyco said:
Baconmonster723 said:
Maybe I'm just used to it, guys basically thrash on each other all the time, it's what we do. For the most part we all want to be Alphas so we break down the others to be top dog. I personally only let people have it if they deserve it, but I have given a fair number of tongue lashings.
No one here (or anywhere that I have seen as far as gaming discussions go) is actually against trash talking. Call your fellow gamers noobs, call them idiots if you love that, tell them to l2p or go to hello kitty land or something. Brag when you crush them in pvp? Definitely!

What people are, however, objecting to is the personal side. I doubt that you would use your knowledge that one of your fellow gamers is gay to constantly cuss him out about exactly that. Or someone that is adopted how its no surprise his real parents didn't want him.
Of course you wouldn't do that... (at least, I sincerely hope so o.o)
So why do it with women? With gender?

As to women growing more thick-skinned... Hm. Imagine that you go outside to your job/school/whathaveyou and every time you smile at someone, there is a chance that they will step on your foot. Not every time, of course, but this happens at least once a day I would think. After YEARS of this your foot probably gets mighty sore. Might even break once or twice. Damnit, why can't people just pay a little more attention to where they are stepping? Just a tiny little bit... Even worse, some of those toe-steppers are telling you its your fault for smiling! :-/ You might start to feel wary about smiling, yes? Maybe?
Now imagine you go to a completely different location (which, if you aren't following me, would be the internet in this analogy) you meet new people there. Great, right? But... do you smile at them?

I am probably not the best person (or had the best analogy) for this, but maybe this helped nonetheless.
solution: wear steel toed boots.

(couldnt resist)
 

Tippy

New member
Jul 3, 2012
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Mortai Gravesend said:
I'm going to expect you to act childishly more often I guess. Because the obvious thing I meant was that we can react if they don't met said expectations.

Realism and your delusions are not one and the same. You keep expecting them to do what you like and appear in large numbers because you whine a lot. How stupid is that? You can keep expecting it all you want.
Oh, that's the thing - I'm NOT expecting it. I'm not expecting anything. It's more of a "dare" than an expectation.

Objectifying women in that way appeals to sexists like you. That's different from liking boobs, but I can't expect someone like you to think of something that blatantly obvious.
Huh? I'm not a sexist.

You don't seem to understand statistics, kid. 42% of gamers != 42% of reviewers.
Reviewers = gamers. You can't review a game without playing it. You can't be a game critic without being a gamer. Reviewers are nothing more than gamers who are paid to give their opinion on the game.
So therefore 42% gamers = 42% reviewers, if the statistics are to be believed.

Also, calling me "kid" isn't helping your argument. You're going down the same road as Moonlight Butterfly.

It's a website, kid. It doesn't make any laws.

It's not making any laws. So think for a second. Is it causing riots or anything? What MORE is it doing than criticizing? Pointing at it and whining is not an argument. Stop whining already.
Where did I whine? I asked a question. You answered. Fair enough. Why do you keep saying "stop whining" at the end of every sentence?

Stop whining like you for one. Call people out on their sexism instead of saying it's okay.
I never said it's okay. Please quote the part where I said sexism is okay (gosh you sound familiar to the other poster).

This isn't an expectation, kid. And nothing about your solution is realistic. It's retarded to say more women should just come out. Do you see it happening because you whined a lot? No? Well clearly not a realistic solution to suggest as it isn't happening.

It's pathetic ego-boosting to call your solution realistic.
It's retarded to say more women should just come out? It's too much to expect of them now, is it? If they want to be heard, why shouldn't more of them come out? If they want to be welcomed into the community, why shouldn't more of them come out? If they want to involve themselves in gaming without having to give up their identity as females, why shouldn't they come out? Why is it retarded? Why isn't it realistic to expect statistics to play out in reality?

Sorry, am I talking to someone who hears voices in their head? Because I don't remember saying anyone should be hiding. Or saying anything about people coming to my defense or people changing their minds. I'm pointing out that people like you don't help, they just whine.
Again about the whining...hmm...

Not at all. And did you assume I was a girl? What a surprise some sexist like you is going to assume that.
Again with the insults...


Look, I tried my best to discuss. You sprinkled your post with petty insults like "kid", "sexist" and "whiner" constantly trying to provoke a reaction instead of trying to genuinely stick to the discussion at hand - this is called "trolling".

I'm sorry for assuming you were female, my mistake.

Goodbye.
 

Overusedname

Emcee: the videogame video guy
Jun 26, 2012
950
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Tippy said:
...I'm not sure you considered some of the things I said.

I also wanna make it clear there is no notable MENTAL difference between women and men. The physical differences are largely the origin of sexism.

I will point out that anyone who doesn't understand the corruption of male dominance should look at the two most obvious and studied historical factors: sexist scripture, and male anatomy.

I'm not explaining the sexism in popular old religious text, because I shouldn't have to, but it's a colossal influence.

However, a bigger influence is prehistoric in origin. Literally.

Men are built stronger...in an immediate and direct way. They have bigger muscles, can run further, etc. In a way that could be noticed with out science or survey. Thus in prehistoric times, who looked like they were more important?

Meanwhile, Women have better matabolisms, live longer, have higher resistance to disease and are statistically more dextrous. It was obvious in hindsight that women lived longer, were better with their hands, better at gathering and crafting, but it wasn't so obvious to a bunch of primates banging rocks together and hunting mammoth.

With all due respect, if ya did any research on this topic beyond googling 'game convention photo' 5 times over the course of three days (which doesn't change the reason WHY women don't GO to cons, which is what I've been talking about for quite a while now), you would be able to learn more about these simple facts. Sexism has it's origins in these two little pieces of human history, both thousands of years old.

People have very little right to talk about sexism if they don't acknowledge why women were given the short end of the stick historically. It has literally nothing to do with mental capabilities. Women consistently get better grades in first world schooling systems. I'd talk about average IQ tests being just about equal, but they seem to be getting less respect from scientists each year (biased as hell, almost entirely made by and distributed by men).

So maybe you shouldn't say stuff like this:

If nature/evolution/god/whatever truly made women to be 100% equal to men in every possible way (and I mean every possible way), the world would have almost never seen any period of male dominance.

In the last 5000+ years, women would've fought back and proved they were equally as inventive, equally as productive, equally as strong (body and mind), equally as capable, etc etc etc. Women would've always had an equal say in society, always been able to vote, always had equal privileges. But that did NOT happen. Men stayed in power, and continue to stay in power in many aspects of life. WHY? Please, do answer (and a decent answer, not "because men are jerks").
I realize this is a forum post on a gaming website, but it's still a topic on Feminism and sexism. This isn't a grade school discussion.

Making generalizations on 51% of the population and calling women 'lazy' when they have to work harder to get their foot in the door than a man does to be a CEO is a bit...narrow minded. And doing all this without any shred of research, accountability for historical context, the way women where traditionally raised from infancy to be submissive to men, and essentially denying sexism still exists isn't exactly a battle plan.

And in terms of mobilizing against the monstrous force of gaming sexism, please. This is gaming culture. It's not appreciated as an art form by a large segment of the population, and because of a few stupid old women on 'The View' and a vocal minority of angry women, feminism is a bigger joke now than it's been in decades. Good luck finding large groups of women who will take time out of their day to fight tooth and nail 24/7 everyday of there life to enjoy a hobby you and I have permission to enjoy with no effort at all. Very few men are passionate enough to engage in daily conflicts, generalizations and defying stereotypes just so they can play COD for an hour. The difference is, they don't HAVE to.

There are only so many impassioned women in the game industry because they have to be EXTRA passionate to cope with the constant personal attacks and casual hate online, and all the more subtle hate offline.

You can brush off what I said as 'men are jerks', but that has no effect on the facts I just provided.

...I also don't recall saying that men were jerks. Or even vaguely implying that men were the only problem. I'm giving you a frame of reference as to why women feel less welcome. I guess more women could be trying, but you deny that they are. Hell, you've repeatedly denied their existence (which I see everyday of my life), and the fact that the original post had 3 different websites with similar statistics on the gaming population

I also don't think you understand that I, the guy who started this talk, am a man. Who was introduced to gaming by my nanny and her daughter.

I just ask that we make women feel a bit more welcome in our little social gaming thing. It means saying 'shut up, and grow up' to a sexist guy every couple of weeks of your life, and not making every girl turn playing Gears of War into a battle for equal rights. You can fit that in your schedule.

As can I.

...As evidenced by the fact that we've both spent way to much time on this forum.

On that note, do you play TF2? Wanna meet up later? Mann Vs. Machine looks fun as hell.
 

goliath6711

New member
May 3, 2010
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Overusedname said:
I'm making this as something of a response thread to this: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.385133-From-The-Kitchen-To-The-Controller-Girl-Gamers-Exposed
As funny as the Youtube video connected to that is (and that's really how you've got to look at it), I will agree with some of the comments under the video. If female gamers want those games that properly represents their demographic and marketed to appeal to them and they feel that the industry isn't doing that, then they need to make those games themselves. Prove that they can be successful critically and financially. And if no one knows how to create that game, then they need to learn. If they don't have the financial means, then they need to go out and get them. If it's as important as they claim, then whatever it takes, however long it takes, they will have these games made available to the public so we can see what they can see and prove to us how right they are.

And they don't need to force companies to change their established games to fit that mold. For example: If you really wanted an all-female wrestling game that had characters that were treated as serious, no-nonsense athletes and not glorified sex objects that bad, then go out and make that game yourself. Don't try and force Konami to turn Rumble Roses into that because that's part of its appeal to its fanbase. It would be as well received as GTA V trying for an E raiting.
 

RafaelNegrus

New member
Mar 27, 2012
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Overusedname said:
Actually, the differences are more than just physical. Mental, psychological, and social differences abound. http://cranepsych2.edublogs.org/files/2009/08/Sex_diffs_in_the_brain.pdf

I mean, think about it. You and I have many chemicals in our brains that are at totally different levels from those in female brains, and you think that won't affect us? It's not just about stereotypes, it's about something even more fundamental than that.

I was reading another paper by a professor, I think he was from University of KAnsas and I'm having trouble finding it now, but anyways he was talking about how men and women socialize differently. That typically men have more, shallow relationships and women have fewer, albeit deeper ones. This inclined men to get together with other men in large groups to do things, which in turn could have led them to form organizations and then to form societies. Women were much better caretakers (of everything, not just children) because they made deeper connections with others, so when a man would be tempted to take an action against that person out of apathy (say, aggressive actions) women would be less inclined to do so. As such men created and continue to create the organizations that make our society, while women do very well inside the organizations once they have been built.

Much of that is conjecture, just extrapolating from the known methods of socializing. He also talked about how men were more to the extremes of women on basically everything. Take IQ for an example. On average men and women are equal, but there are more genius level men than women just as there are more men with mental deficiencies. Basically, whenever you take a closed system, cut off one end and not the other, then the sample becomes skewed. Grades are a good example because they are topped out at As, so women do better because men are hampered by those that do less well. PAy is the opposite, because it is capped at zero and it skewed in favor of those extremes making large amounts of money, which are men.

But yeah, that argument that men and women are basically the same does not hold any water. The question is to what extent are we different.
 

Tippy

New member
Jul 3, 2012
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Overusedname said:
With all due respect, if ya did any research on this topic beyond googling 'game convention photo' 5 times over the course of three days (which doesn't change the reason WHY women don't GO to cons, which is what I've been talking about for quite a while now)
Actually that's what I've been talking about for a while too :p
I asked why women don't attend cons, and I got responses along the lines of the male community being unwelcoming, harsh and sexist, and game cons being aimed primarily at men. I responded that that's the reality of showing up in such an extreme minority, you will be spat on, and the hosts will obviously cater to who ever shows up the most. It's not fair/justified but it still happens. So I guess women have basically taken to hiding in their homes and yelling from there instead of doing what every other oppressed minority had to do to get noticed (blacks, gays, etc). I kinda didn't really get any response that other than "well men need to be nicer".

People have very little right to talk about sexism if they don't acknowledge why women were given the short end of the stick historically. It has literally nothing to do with mental capabilities. Women consistently get better grades in first world schooling systems. I'd talk about average IQ tests being just about equal, but they seem to be getting less respect from scientists each year (biased as hell, almost entirely made by and distributed by men).

So maybe you shouldn't say stuff like this:
It was a bit extreme of me, I'll admit. I was trying to stick to the final outcome of the gender wars, and why that outcome was almost always male dominance. Surely it can't entirely be related to the male anatomy, especially since raw physical strength became irrelevant in an era where a brilliant mind was far more valuable than muscles. But the outcome isn't matching the theory.

I realize this is a forum post on a gaming website, but it's still a topic on Feminism and sexism. This isn't a grade school discussion.
Neat, we'll carry on with it then :)

Making generalizations on 51% of the population and calling women 'lazy' when they have to work harder to get their foot in the door than a man does to be a CEO is a bit...narrow minded. And doing all this without any shred of research, accountability for historical context, the way women where traditionally raised from infancy to be submissive to men, and essentially denying sexism still exists isn't exactly a battle plan.
Hey I didn't call them lazy...well, maybe female gamers who choose to hide, that is borderline lazy, but in general women work very hard. Extra-hard actually, like you said.

I don't know if women are still raised to be submissive to men in the developed world. One rather perplexing thing that's always struck me (since I was a child actually) was this: For a long time, it was generally expected of a woman to know how to cook, preferably cook well. Many cultures still believe it. So it is easy to assume "in a world where most women knew how to cook, all the world's best chefs must surely be women!" BUZZZZZZZZZZ wrong.

http://culinary-colorado.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/FandWBestChefs2011.jpg
http://hookedonhouses.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/restaurant-kitchen.jpg

The above images are just to help prove a point, we don't need statistics or photos to know that most professional chefs are men. So what exactly happened? Did society say to women "you can be good cooks, but not the best"? Were women pressured or kicked out of chef academies? Are restaurant owners sexist?

And in terms of mobilizing against the monstrous force of gaming sexism, please. This is gaming culture. It's not appreciated as an art form by a large segment of the population, and because of a few stupid old women on 'The View' and a vocal minority of angry women, feminism is a bigger joke now than it's been in decades. Good luck finding large groups of women who will take time out of their day to fight tooth and nail 24/7 everyday of there life to enjoy a hobby you and I have permission to enjoy with no effort at all. Very few men are passionate enough to engage in daily conflicts, generalizations and defying stereotypes just so they can play COD for an hour. The difference is, they don't HAVE to.

There are only so many impassioned women in the game industry because they have to be EXTRA passionate to cope with the constant personal attacks and casual hate online, and all the more subtle hate offline.

You can brush off what I said as 'men are jerks', but that has no effect on the facts I just provided.
Agreed, facts are facts, I won't deny any of them. Women don't "have to" prove anything, it's been said time and again in this thread. But I don't think the male gaming community will be very welcoming to a group who feels they don't "have to" prove anything. I'll have to break it up into singleplayer and multipalyer here, since both are vastly different in terms of atmosphere. Females don't have to prove anything in singleplayer games, fully agreed. It's singleplayer. They are allowed to CRITICIZE games which wrongly depict their gender as sexual objects - they can criticize, comment on the game, give their feedback and move on.

What I don't understand are campaigns like Tropes vs Women, something far more than just criticism or negative feedback. Avengers (the movie) got absolutely amazing reviews and made tons of money, despite the terrible depiction of a females in the group. People don't like to admit it, but Natalia Romanova (aka Black Widow) was solely placed there to have a sexy pair of tits bouncing around and providing support while the big men did all the work. Yes they were trying to pull a "oh look, a badass chick", but they're not fooling anyone after introducing her tied to a chair, her skin-tight leather suit so eager to show off her figure, always wearing boatloads of makeup, etc etc etc. Gwyneth Paltrow (Pepper Potts) also always playing the "behind every great man there's a woman" role through all Iron Man movies and Avengers, but atleast she had some depth to her character.

My point is that people know WHY she was placed there, and that's alright. The industry was alright with it, the viewers were alright with Megan Fox being nothing more than shallow sexual eye candy through Transformers 1 and 2, the writers knew it.

Back to the topic - if 42% of gamers (i.e. females, if the statistics are to be believed) were really giving back negative feedback on games which wrongly depict them, there would've been a BIG change in the industry a long time ago. "Sir!" a terrified analyst would've said to his boss, "4 out of 10 people have given our game a horrible score because they think it's sexist! It's a complete flop!"
"WHAT?" the boss would've exclaim "that many? I had no idea. Alright, time to change some stuff." And away they went.

...I also don't recall saying that men were jerks. Or even vaguely implying that men were the only problem. I'm giving you a frame of reference as to why women feel less welcome. I guess more women could be trying, but you deny that they are. Hell, you've repeatedly denied their existence (which I see everyday of my life), and the fact that the original post had 3 different websites with similar statistics on the gaming population
I understand WHY women feel less welcome, trust me I do. I'll be switching to a competetive gamer subject now (multiplayer), and there is probably where I hold my strongest views because I'm absolutely crazy about multiplayer in all forms. I've been a part of several communities and seen their rises and falls, their attitudes, I can see why it would be a harsh environment for a woman. And THAT is why I already know asking males to simply "be nicer" isn't going to work. I've played among them, they aren't going to deterred that easily. It's going to be a extremely slow and painful process, a lot of female gamers are going to come out hurt/offended/pushed even further away from multiplayer, pushed further into hiding their voice and identity.

That's why I saw it as an unrealistic expectation. Female gamers need to take mass action, make a big move against it or they'll never be welcome. There are many guys willing to help them out (like you and me) but we can't do it unless they take action first. We can't hold their hand tell the testosterone-filled multiplayer twats "back off, she's a girl, be nice", that will only make things worse. They need to do this on their own.


I just ask that we make women feel a bit more welcome in our little social gaming thing. It means saying 'shut up, and grow up' to a sexist guy every couple of weeks of your life, and not making every girl turn playing Gears of War into a battle for equal rights. You can fit that in your schedule.

As can I.

...As evidenced by the fact that we've both spent way to much time on this forum.
Indeed, this is where I take a long break from this issue :p
I'm doing my bit to help and you're doing yours. My version of helping is treating female oppononets with equal ferocity (in gameplay, not verbal abuse lol :p) and telling others to stop with the insults - NOT because they're being sexist towards a girl, but because they're insulting a fellow player. But people like us can only put a scratch in the brick walls that are the XBox Live communities, FPS communities and Arcade Fighter communities. Women need to do 95% of the work here and drive themselves into these communities en-masse, make themselves heard, show their gameplay, and most importantly not be scared about admitting their gender (whether it be by name or avatar).

On that note, do you play TF2? Wanna meet up later? Mann Vs. Machine looks fun as hell.
I used to play a bit but I've fallen out of touch because D3 sucked me in and spat me out like a thousand-dollar whore :(
MvM does indeed look interesting as heck though, looks like I'm coming back. Atleast until GW2 or Crysis 3 Multiplayer completely sucks me in...*sigh*, what an amazing year for multiplayer games, whatever am I going to do :O