Atari Founder: PC Piracy About to be Eradicated
- Thread starter Junaid Alam
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Why, yes, as it were, I do believe we live in a world of kleptomania.The_root_of_all_evil said:
Root, I fear we may have had a misunderstanding. Please try to understand the delicacy with which I am going to pose the following question to you, and take that tender concern into consideration if and when you respond.The_root_of_all_evil said:
Did you read my posts?
By "read," I don't mean "skimmed" or "read Malygris' replies," I mean to ask if you truly comprehended and digested my posts, assimilated them into a coherent viewpoint, and then formulated a well-constructed objection before posting. The reason I ask this is because your assumptions that I am "advocating the destruction of [Malygris'] livelihood," proposing "romanticized anarchy" as a solution, that I believe in the "Thought Police," am "continually chanting the mantra of 'Information wants to be Free,'" or that I am trying to initiate an economic upheaval in the name of my ideals leave me confused. I went and read over all of my earlier posts on this topic, and couldn't decide where you may have picked up these ideas. If you could point out to me where you got that impression of my viewpoint, I'd really like to know, since I wouldn't want anyone else to think that's what I meant.
I'm left thinking that you grasped the basics of the debate between Malygris and I, but somewhere along the line--perhaps after you read our posts but before you replied to this topic--you lost our train of thought and jumped onto your own; one characterized by a generic pro-piracy versus anti-piracy argument, and from there your reply transformed into your customary response to that imagined topic. I would argue that Malygris and I are not two extreme idealists debating the entirety of the big picture, but rather a pair of more realistic thinkers debating some fundamental points of industry composition and direction--as well as some finer (and perhaps pettier) details.
Having posed that theory, I have two final points in direct response to your reply. First, I don't care who makes the games that I play, so long as I like them. While the corporate jockeying of your average megapublisher certainly makes me shudder, I'm not so idealistic that I would refuse to play an amazing game that they put out. Second, I don't think that Malygris has direct ownership over this forum. If he does, then I apologize in advance for my ignorance. Even if he did, that does not give him any sort of protection from my soured impression of him if he chooses to be uncivil towards me or any other contributor to this topic. By virtue of the internet, he is fully empowered to act as impolitely as he wants, just as I am fully empowered to make snide comments about his impoliteness. Whether or not he cares or it matters is an entirely different question.
You may have noticed this, but I just wanted to make clear that Malygris' comment was directed towards Nugoo, not me.
Thoughts?
Saying that making a game so cheap that it's not worth stealing does'nt make much sense because that would still be far bellow the costs required to develope and distribute them and it's right up there with "If Ford started selling their new cars for $10 each then people would'nt be stealing them so it's fords fault that people steal cars"noradseven said:
Incandescence, Passive-Aggression and indirect condemnation of my viewpoint does not warm me to you.
If I could just take a few of your examples:
A) You imply that developers are less concerned about income than their publishers. This would be the case if we were working for love or other such heady ideals, but as this is a monetary driven society and not some flight of fancy; the developer who is more likely to be published will show a track record of having made money beforehand, thus adding to their Curriculum; as well as the developer having placed far more of his time into the finished product than the publisher, so your first proposition fails to account for that.
B) Pirates are not the be all and end all of moral depravity. An ad hominem argument at best. They are still engaged in stealing the foundations of living from the person whose work they enjoy, hence 'advocating destruction'.
C) The same argument in a different form. Just because someone may be doing something worse than yourself does not excuse you from petty theft. That is sociopathic justification, hence
'romanticised anarchy'.
As before, you have placed yourself and your opinions in some lofty tower, whilst forgetting that "choose to steal" also means "choose to endure society's punishment for stealing". Merely assuming the mantle of victim does not make you sympathetic, quite the reverse in fact.
I would also argue that Malygris is showing admirable restraint in not removing you for indirectly insulting him.
If you would be able to re-iterate why you believe that you are capable of living within society without obeying society's rules, then there could be a discussion. At the moment, you are merely proposing why your point is right and you have no interest in others.
Let me draw your attention to your own words again.
There is a big difference between a 'realistic thinker' and someone with practical knowledge debating. The main one being that the latter wins by virtue of him having solid evidence.
Piracy is wrong by it's definition. If you disagree, please lobby the Government or F.A.S.T.
If I could just take a few of your examples:
A) You imply that developers are less concerned about income than their publishers. This would be the case if we were working for love or other such heady ideals, but as this is a monetary driven society and not some flight of fancy; the developer who is more likely to be published will show a track record of having made money beforehand, thus adding to their Curriculum; as well as the developer having placed far more of his time into the finished product than the publisher, so your first proposition fails to account for that.
B) Pirates are not the be all and end all of moral depravity. An ad hominem argument at best. They are still engaged in stealing the foundations of living from the person whose work they enjoy, hence 'advocating destruction'.
C) The same argument in a different form. Just because someone may be doing something worse than yourself does not excuse you from petty theft. That is sociopathic justification, hence
'romanticised anarchy'.
As before, you have placed yourself and your opinions in some lofty tower, whilst forgetting that "choose to steal" also means "choose to endure society's punishment for stealing". Merely assuming the mantle of victim does not make you sympathetic, quite the reverse in fact.
I would also argue that Malygris is showing admirable restraint in not removing you for indirectly insulting him.
If you would be able to re-iterate why you believe that you are capable of living within society without obeying society's rules, then there could be a discussion. At the moment, you are merely proposing why your point is right and you have no interest in others.
Let me draw your attention to your own words again.
I would believe that the publishers care enough so that games you may not like may also be published.
By virtue of him being a part of the society, and of a higher rank than yourself, you at least should allow him a modicum of respect and not challenge something that he knows more about than you do. That is all covered in the Board Rules.
Which is why I answered it in such a way. You may also notice that he was also talking to you.
There is a big difference between a 'realistic thinker' and someone with practical knowledge debating. The main one being that the latter wins by virtue of him having solid evidence.
Piracy is wrong by it's definition. If you disagree, please lobby the Government or F.A.S.T.
Regardless of whether you think theft is good or bad or whether you think piracy is good or bad, (digital) piracy is not theft. When you steal something, you have acquired it for free, and someone else has lost it. When you pirate something, you have acquired it for free. That's why there are no Internet debates about the morality of shoplifting games.
Malygris, this is the second time you've ignored my argument. You can't think it's unworthy of a response, since you went through the trouble of quoting it just to dismiss it. If your counterpoints are so strong, lay them out and convince me.
Malygris, this is the second time you've ignored my argument. You can't think it's unworthy of a response, since you went through the trouble of quoting it just to dismiss it. If your counterpoints are so strong, lay them out and convince me.
Someone hacked an iPhone within a week of it's launch. He got it on a different service provider than the on eyou have to get normally (I think it was AT&T).blackadvent said:
PC piracy may not be eradicated, but as long as it's reduced with no problems to the customer, I don't see what the problem is.
The problem is that so many people in this thread are rather short-sighted in what this might achieve. I think that as long as this chip prevents a large amount of piracy from occurring, it will be a success. A large majority of the people who pirate games aren't exactly tech-savvy people. If you make it so that pirating becomes such a huge hassle that only those with the knowledge and skill to do it can pull it off, you really have won the battle.
I think that these measures shouldn't be seen as a way to completely prevent piracy, but to curb piracy from mainstream users who don't know much about computers.
The problem is that so many people in this thread are rather short-sighted in what this might achieve. I think that as long as this chip prevents a large amount of piracy from occurring, it will be a success. A large majority of the people who pirate games aren't exactly tech-savvy people. If you make it so that pirating becomes such a huge hassle that only those with the knowledge and skill to do it can pull it off, you really have won the battle.
I think that these measures shouldn't be seen as a way to completely prevent piracy, but to curb piracy from mainstream users who don't know much about computers.
The problem is that more often than not these solutions only anger legitimate customers and do nothing to stop pirates.Joeshie said:
So, if I have the gist of this thread, people who pirate games are victims? The way most of the anti-DRM people talk is as though the companies decide "Hey lets screw these people" and the pirates are actually helping society by getting back at them? Earlier I made the argument that the game prices have to go up to make a profit BECAUSE of piracy, and I would like to elaborate on this. I know a lot of people. Most of them will not buy the games that are being pirated because of the ridiculous price on the parts required for a pc that can play them. Most of the people who have the good PC's are the people who know a thing or two about Computers and the Internet. This means that most of the people that would be buying the games know how to circumvent the system. So, I asume that a major chunk of the money that the developers get from games is taken out because of this. This causes them to HAVE to increase the price of their games to compensate. As prices go up more people say "This is too expensive" and go to piracy, so the price of games will continue to go up.
As for prices of games in developing countries, I have no idea why their so expensive but it almost definately has to do with transportation and tarrifs.
One of the posters on here said something that reminded me a lot of Black Mage from 8-Bit Theater. He said something that amounts to "Why should I do this the legal way thats going to cost ME? Why should morals get in my way?" The way he phrased this sounded like many of the other anti-DRM people in this thread. He sounded like a martyr. These pirates believe that they are victims. One of them called someone who pointed out the immorality of it a "Corporate Drone". This reminded me of the either you with something that happens on some MMO's that I have played. Someone who is a higher level is critisized for being a higher level. No real point here, just something interesting.
As for prices of games in developing countries, I have no idea why their so expensive but it almost definately has to do with transportation and tarrifs.
One of the posters on here said something that reminded me a lot of Black Mage from 8-Bit Theater. He said something that amounts to "Why should I do this the legal way thats going to cost ME? Why should morals get in my way?" The way he phrased this sounded like many of the other anti-DRM people in this thread. He sounded like a martyr. These pirates believe that they are victims. One of them called someone who pointed out the immorality of it a "Corporate Drone". This reminded me of the either you with something that happens on some MMO's that I have played. Someone who is a higher level is critisized for being a higher level. No real point here, just something interesting.
I always try to err on the side of verbosity. It weeds the tl;dr-ers (too long;didn't read, aka lazy readers) out.Dejawesp said:
I'll address your three actual points first and then get into the minutiae of this forum's workings; even though I'd rather not get into the semantics of rules, they seem to comprise a significant portion of your reply and I feel obligated to address the entire thing. After all, I know I'd be a little annoyed if someone simply ignored major parts of my posts.The_root_of_all_evil said:
First, I did not imply anything. I directly stated the workings of my viewpoint with regard to developers and publishers and their likely viewpoints on sales numbers. In my opinion, publishers are going to see sales numbers primarily as income, and developers are going to see sales numbers primarily as exposure--an investment on their next game. I do not think that "developers are less concerned about income than publishers," I think that developers do not need to be as concerned about sales numbers as publishers. The overarching point to my posts is that piracy does not need to be seen as an absolute evil that resources must be directed towards eradicating. It is a result of a fault in the industry that plagues many other digital industries, and if current pirates are going to become paying consumers in the future, then the perspective of the industry must change from this ridiculous pariah characterization. If the industry were to agree, developers would be in the best position to facilitate that change of perspective, because in comparison to publishers they care about exposure more than the income filtered through the middlemen between the developer and the player. The major point that Malygris--and, it would seem, you--and I seem to disagree on is the fact he has admitting to holding an absolutist black-and-white view of piracy as irreconcilably immoral, while I do not believe that it needs to be seen in such stark terms.
Second, I know that ad hominem is a cool Latin phrase that is fun to throw into a forum post or a rhetorical analysis every once in a while, but you've used it incorrectly. It's pretty obvious when a logical fallacy is an ad hominem, because it is a direct attack on an unrelated aspect of the author of an argument, rather than the argument itself. For instance, if instead of saying "b) Pirates are not the end-all-be-all of moral depravity" I had said "b) Malygris is dumb," that would be an ad hominem. I do not disagree that piracy tends to have a negative impact on the net earnings of the game industry, but I do disagree that accepting piracy as an inevitability is "advocating destruction" of any sort. I have already stated that I want the game industry to flourish so that I might benefit from the release of more--and better--games, and I would rather see the status quo of the industry remain than see the industry destroyed just because I disagree vehemently with one of their policies.
Third, I do not believe that points b) and c) are the same argument in different forms. If you reread c), you will see that I presumed that "pirates were the lowest of the low" for the sake of the argument. I'm not attempting any justification for piracy as an act in and of itself in this point, just as I have not attempted justification for such in any other point. Rather, I was making a stab at the game industry--and electronic industries in general, for that matter--for continuing to pursue anti-piracy policies that have proven unsuccessful for years. On a more general note, I would assume that any sort of sociopathy would destroy a romanticized anarchy rather than enable it, since the success of anarchies are usually wagered on peaceful co-existence without a governmental overseer.
Now I will respond to your later arguments in kind.
First, a major incentive that encourages the act of piracy is that there are no repercussions. People that download games do not have to "endure society's punishment for stealing," because that would require legal action and there are just too many people for consistent prosecution to take place. Illegally downloading a game is not a question of "am I prepared to face the consequences of stealing this piece of copyrighted intellectual property?" but rather "do I have enough hard drive space?"
Second, if Malygris is in fact restraining himself from "removing" me, I do not admire him for it. I expect the moderators that The Escapist employs for their forums to have the maturity and decency to avoid abusing their powers to remove someone who disagrees with the point of view, even if that person indirectly insults them--as I do not believe I have. It's part of their job, not some magnanimous quality.
Third, the reason I believe I can live in a society and not obey all of the society's rules is because hardly anybody obeys all of any given society's rules. Especially in a society with an unwieldy, heavily democratized bureaucracy for a government, it's impossible to punish every wrongdoer. A simplified formula that does not take personal morals into account follows. If the potential benefit from committing a crime outweighs the potential consequences, that crime will be committed given a self-interested and amoral individual. Since digital piracy carries little to no consequence with significant benefit, it is a popular alternative to purchasing games, movies, and music. I accept this reality, and so I am comfortable living in my society. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that nothing will convince me otherwise and I do not foresee myself becoming a crusader for the protection of intellectual property--unless it is my own.
Fourth, I'm unclear what you're trying to convey when you say "I would believe that the publishers care enough so that games you may not like may also be published."
Fifth, I find it interesting that you bring up the dreaded Rules Sticky. Upon consulting it, I found the following:
No referee shirts on around here.Posting Guidelines said:
I see that Malygris isn't on this list. Perhaps it's old?Posting Guidelines said:
Sounds like a decent idea to me.Posting Guidelines said:
I believe this applies to all of us, Root. I see you've done exactly what it says not to do with my post. Good thing they're just guidelines and not hard-and-fast rules. Though Joe's right, it is kind of obnoxious.Posting Guidelines said:
Anyway, I was rankled by your recommendation that I "not challenge something that [Malygris] knows more about than you do." Not only am I not convinced that Malygris knows substantially more about the topic of our debate than I do, but the Posting Guidelines that you cited say nothing about blind faith in people of authority. I don't agree with people based on their rank, knowledge, or experience--I agree on the basis of their ability to convince me of their point of view. I believe I have afforded him more than a modicum of respect in my posts, addressing both him and you as politely as possible without the use of honorifics. I'm also pretty sure that a person like Malygris, being in a position of authority, does not need underlings to remind him or anyone else of what they can and cannot do.
Sixth, I do not think it is entirely fair to lump Nugoo and I under the same generalized perspective, so I ask that you do not quote one of us and address us both. In fact, I do not agree with the following quote from him.
So if you were treating us as one in the same, it may not be the wisest course of action if you want to convince either of us of anything.Nugoo said:
Seventh, I will not be lobbying any institution about anything. I don't have the time, resources, or motivation. And considering what time, resources and motivation I do have, arguing about it on the internet is equally effective.
I'm not all for piracy, but I'm also not for the current solutions. They get in the way of honest consumers more then the pirates. I have heard of enough people who can't use their legally bought music/movies/games because the systems reject them. They have to make copies to get it to work.
When I watch certain dvd's, I first have to sit through several minutes of anti-piracy commercials, while I bought it legally...and pirated versions have this annoying, unskippable part cut out.
Maybe educating the pirates about the amount of effort and money that goes into a game will help more. There have been enough people complaining about the downfall of pc gaming, and blame developers and publishers for it. Well guess what; you played your part as well.
But then again, in some places, prices ARE ridiculous. At some places games are twice as expensive as in America, and there are no costs to justify that price. How do you vote against such prices? By not buying it. But if you want to play the game anyways? You either import, or download it.
I'm paart of the industry, but I can actually understand *that* sentiment. I know that in some places, game prices are driven up artificially.
When I watch certain dvd's, I first have to sit through several minutes of anti-piracy commercials, while I bought it legally...and pirated versions have this annoying, unskippable part cut out.
Maybe educating the pirates about the amount of effort and money that goes into a game will help more. There have been enough people complaining about the downfall of pc gaming, and blame developers and publishers for it. Well guess what; you played your part as well.
But then again, in some places, prices ARE ridiculous. At some places games are twice as expensive as in America, and there are no costs to justify that price. How do you vote against such prices? By not buying it. But if you want to play the game anyways? You either import, or download it.
I'm paart of the industry, but I can actually understand *that* sentiment. I know that in some places, game prices are driven up artificially.
Here's a basic hint. When discussing, do not use YOUR viewpoint all the time; and make sure that you are aware of all your little implications.Incandescence said:
Also, do not attack my use of English without first looking for double negatives etc. within your own.
Soulfein said:
That just says it all.
I'm sorry you weren't able to get more out of my posts than that. If it makes you feel better, both you and Malygris helped me see how a strong moral position makes it more difficult to argue against even the most misguided anti-piracy measures, because from an anti-pirate perspective at least it's something. I'd like to thank both of you for that, and I'll try to incorporate that new perspective into the next debate I have about copyright infringement or piracy.The_root_of_all_evil said:
Since you were kind enough to make a suggestion to me, I'll do the same. Root, I feel like the majority of your points were not as well fleshed out as they could have been, and so they were not very convincing to me. I also was not impressed by the apparent lack of thought put into the organization of your points--I found myself having to reread your posts several times just to get a handle on what you were trying to say. Your spelling is good, and your grammar is decent, but I noticed some random capitalization of nouns in the middle of sentences. A word processor won't really help with that, but just going over your post a couple more times with an eye for detail before you post it will really help with the presentation and strength of your points. I hope you take these suggestions to heart.
As I said to Malygris, I had a lot of fun debating this topic with you, Root. Both of you really helped me find my feet in the piracy debate.
Stop reading now if you don't care because i'm not adding to this discussion, just explaining my mistakes.
Ok, ok. I must be chronically tired or something because I totally messup what I was trying to say. I thought I quoted Root Of All Evil, attempting to ridicule his dismissal of Incandesence arguments and then resorting to insults. But after I posted It turned out that I had accidently quoted Incandesence post.
Then, after I had changed it I thought that I had in fact quoted root of all evil after all because Incandesence had summerised his paragraph into 2 words and that threw me. Srry to all involved and if you don't care don't say I didn't warn you.
Edit: I feel traumatised, I need a cookie.
Ok, ok. I must be chronically tired or something because I totally messup what I was trying to say. I thought I quoted Root Of All Evil, attempting to ridicule his dismissal of Incandesence arguments and then resorting to insults. But after I posted It turned out that I had accidently quoted Incandesence post.
Then, after I had changed it I thought that I had in fact quoted root of all evil after all because Incandesence had summerised his paragraph into 2 words and that threw me. Srry to all involved and if you don't care don't say I didn't warn you.
Edit: I feel traumatised, I need a cookie.
In my current situation, I have no option but tor esort to piracy- especially if I want games like Fallout 2 and others without trying to download them off shady internet sites. While whole scale piracy is bad for both consumer and producer, in effect its something like petty shoplifting- something budgetted into the price of our goods, and the company's tax rebates- i.e lost $12 million due to piracy- pray deduct from my taxes. And so, when I think about it, there is no reason corporates should factor piracy into the price of goods.
*RAGE*
Anywho, most likely this piece of gobshite will be another excuse to push up prices of rigs, and also will be redundant in..... 2 hours, 42 minutes and 18 seconds. 14 seconds if they have plenty of liquid nitrogen on hand.
*RAGE*
Anywho, most likely this piece of gobshite will be another excuse to push up prices of rigs, and also will be redundant in..... 2 hours, 42 minutes and 18 seconds. 14 seconds if they have plenty of liquid nitrogen on hand.