Aurora Police Defend ‘Stand Down’ Orders; Twice Walked Away From Arresting Man Who Terrorized Apartment Residents

Secondhand Revenant

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What right does one terror have to claim moral superiority when it is just as capable of terrible acts and is only less so due to the shortness with which it existed?

Also let's not forget that the French Revolution led to the Napoleonic Wars and that was no less bloody than the wars before it.
Is there a reason you dismissed the idea of the quote actually just pointing out the overlooked terror instead of justifying the other? Because quite frankly, people often excuse the status quo.
 
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Silvanus

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Yes. Bending the existing structures with external pressure rather than utilizing and supporting the existing structures falls well outside of electoralism.
Hardly. The City fears direct action because of its potential impact on its public image (being seen to be unresponsive or incapable of maintaining order), and the consequent likelihood of them being turfed out at the next election. The City does not fear it because of any possibility it could lead to them being literally, physically overthrown, because America does not have the appetite for that.

The impact is intricately tied to electoral politics, and relies on it. Direct action has been a feature, not a bug, of functional electoral politics since its inception.
 
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Revnak

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Hardly. The City fears direct action because of its potential impact on its public image (being seen to be unresponsive or incapable of maintaining order), and the consequent likelihood of them being turfed out at the next election. The City does not fear it because of any possibility it could lead to them being literally, physically overthrown, because America does not have the appetite for that.

The impact is intricately tied to electoral politics, and relies on it. Direct action has been a feature, not a bug, of functional electoral politics since its inception.
Pretty sure the cost of a new police station played a role, as well as the cost of putting down the protests, the lost business, etc. It’s not all “public image.”
 

Eacaraxe

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Without exception, the lasting legacy and impact of these events was in pressure exerted on various US governmental agencies or the State governments. Not in their overthrow and replacement, which was not even the intention.
Shay's Rebellion is the literal reason the United States government exists in its current form, and John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry was an attempt to liberate slaves and start an armed rebellion against the United States of America.

Yes. Pressuring politicians to enact policy, exactly. D'you actually understand what I was arguing?
I understood you perfectly. Not my problem you have to move the goalposts now that I've brought actual examples of historical rebellions, insurrections, and attempts of such against the US government that effected policy change. Because your argument was:

1. People never desire to actually rebel, but rather protest.
2. Protest has better success than violent rebellion.

Neither are actually correct, and even in the cases you might employ to justify the second, there was still the implicit or explicit threat of violence forcing those in power to elect for non-violent reform. Everybody wants to remember Gandhi and King, but memory hole, co-opt memory of, or downplay the role of Singh, Hamptonm, or Malcolm X. Why might that be?

I'm unsure why you're asking me, to be frank, because it sounds to me like you've fundamentally misunderstood what I'm arguing, or written in your own stand-in to argue against.
No just sounds like you're trying to weasel around again.
 
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Silvanus

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Shay's Rebellion is the literal reason the United States government exists in its current form, and John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry was an attempt to liberate slaves and start an armed rebellion against the United States of America.
Shay's rebellion impacted the formation of the constitution, as carried out by the Convention (though calling it "the reason the US government exists in its current form" is supremely simplistic, even just in terms of federalism). Brown's raid similarly had its most lasting impact in public perception and forthcoming elections.

That's the lasting impact: pressure exerted on government, not its overthrow and replacement.

I understood you perfectly. Not my problem you have to move the goalposts now that I've brought actual examples of historical rebellions, insurrections, and attempts of such against the US government that effected policy change. Because your argument was:

1. People never desire to actually rebel, but rather protest.
2. Protest has better success than violent rebellion.
Bollocks was it. This isn't "moving the goalposts"; you're quite simply telling me I believe shit I don't.

Neither are actually correct, and even in the cases you might employ to justify the second, there was still the implicit or explicit threat of violence forcing those in power to elect for non-violent reform. Everybody wants to remember Gandhi and King, but memory hole, co-opt memory of, or downplay the role of Singh, Hamptonm, or Malcolm X. Why might that be?
People have terrible historical memories, and tend to downplay the role of violence & conflict in bringing about progress, because its an uncomfortable truth. This is obvious to both of us, and we're not in a history lesson.
 

Eacaraxe

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Shay's rebellion impacted the formation of the constitution, as carried out by the Convention (though calling it "the reason the US government exists in its current form" is supremely simplistic, even just in terms of federalism).
More specifically it was the impetus for American mercantilists to call for it, unhappy with their capacity to fuck the poor under the Articles of Confederation and desiring to give themselves the power to raise a federal army to deal with future folks who didn't know their place.

Brown's raid similarly had its most lasting impact in public perception and forthcoming elections.
Yes, to the point his role in the civil war found itself censored and memory holed as early as 1861.



Funny how nobody remembers that version, but do remember the version written by the well-to-do white woman from NYC, specifically to keep Union soldiers from singing the original lyrics.

Which is rather the larger point, here.

People have terrible historical memories, and tend to downplay the role of violence & conflict in bringing about progress, because its an uncomfortable truth. This is obvious to both of us, and we're not in a history lesson.
It damn well ought to be, and "terrible historical memories" have fuck all to do with it. It's systemic separation of people from their own histories, of by and for the bourgeois. How many of those MAGA voters in coal country you think keep the origins of this song to heart?

 

Silvanus

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More specifically it was the impetus for American mercantilists to call for it, unhappy with their capacity to fuck the poor under the Articles of Confederation and desiring to give themselves the power to raise a federal army to deal with future folks who didn't know their place.

Yes, to the point his role in the civil war found itself censored and memory holed as early as 1861.
Righto. So long as we're in agreement that the lasting impact was in the pressure it placed on the government, which was my original point.

It damn well ought to be, and "terrible historical memories" have fuck all to do with it. It's systemic separation of people from their own histories, of by and for the bourgeois.
Given the free availability of information and the abysmally simplistic attitudes people have towards history, I doubt that's all it is.