Australia, Belts and Roads v US

Trunkage

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So Australian state Victoria signed up with China in its belts and roads initiative.


Pompeo responded by threatening to withdraw from security info sharing as part of the Five Eyes arrangement. This decision isn't approved by the federal government and was offered to the other states but they declined.

Any thoughts on this?

Personally, I'm tired of the US threatening us, but China has been threatening us over the independent investigation we've been spearheading... so swings and roundabouts.
 

Thaluikhain

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The US can cut Australia off from sharing information with the UK, Canada and New Zealand?

Anyhoo, the US foreign policy is a joke at the moment, we've little reason they won't muck Five Eyes up over something else anyway.
 

Agema

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The US can cut Australia off from sharing information with the UK, Canada and New Zealand?
No, but it can refuse to pass intel to Australia, and there is a general understanding that intel agencies do not share information they get from others without good reason or permission, so Australia may well not be able to get the USA's intel off the other three.

But like I've said elsewhere, this sort of crudely threatening behaviour makes the USA an increasingly unreliable country, that will make states be inclined to look elsewhere for their allies.
 

Palindromemordnilap

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Has global politics always resembled children in a playground this much. One kid went to a sleepover with another, so now another kid says they can't be in their gang anymore because they don't like that sleepover friend...
 

SupahEwok

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Has global politics always resembled children in a playground this much. One kid went to a sleepover with another, so now another kid says they can't be in their gang anymore because they don't like that sleepover friend...
Sure, if your sleepover friends all have nukes, possess the ability to screw over countless people economically at the drop of a hat, and sleep on a bed of crimes against humanity.

(Before the literate-challenged criticize me, I said all of the sleepover friends)
 

Gordon_4

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So Australian state Victoria signed up with China in its belts and roads initiative.


Pompeo responded by threatening to withdraw from security info sharing as part of the Five Eyes arrangement. This decision isn't approved by the federal government and was offered to the other states but they declined.

Any thoughts on this?

Personally, I'm tired of the US threatening us, but China has been threatening us over the independent investigation we've been spearheading... so swings and roundabouts.
I’m more curious as to why Victoria is allowed to to make deals of international trade without going through DFAT and the Federal Government first; that seems like a serious overreach. Also, regardless of the temper tantrum delivery of the threat, I don’t think ASIO is going to accept being cut off from intelligence lines from the CIA/NSA or her sister agencies in Canada, New Zealand or Great Britain. This is going to have some serious consequences.
 

Trunkage

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I’m more curious as to why Victoria is allowed to to make deals of international trade without going through DFAT and the Federal Government first; that seems like a serious overreach. Also, regardless of the temper tantrum delivery of the threat, I don’t think ASIO is going to accept being cut off from intelligence lines from the CIA/NSA or her sister agencies in Canada, New Zealand or Great Britain. This is going to have some serious consequences.
Also, they just tried to threaten us with trade sanctions over the investigation into Covid
 

Gordon_4

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Also, they just tried to threaten us with trade sanctions over the investigation into Covid
Well yeah, they’re leveraging their power to dissuade us from doing something. Call it exercising medium-soft power. And in so much as the probe really should go ahead you should bear in mind that you can’t actually force the Chinese to do it.

Pressure, cajole, threaten etc all you like but if the Chinese don’t want to let investigators into the country to do the investigation.......then just like President Trump saying he’s gonna make Mexico pay for the border wall, you come unstuck when the other side acts within its sovereignty and just says “No”.
 

Agema

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Well yeah, they’re leveraging their power to dissuade us from doing something. Call it exercising medium-soft power.
Threatening sanctions and intel removal is not soft power, it's hard. Soft power is intrinsically carrots, not sticks: building willing agreement through alignment of ideas, interests, "friendship", cultural exchange, etc.

The USA and UK are currently trying to annihilate their own soft power.
 

Gordon_4

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Threatening sanctions and intel removal is not soft power, it's hard. Soft power is intrinsically carrots, not sticks: building willing agreement through alignment of ideas, interests, "friendship", cultural exchange, etc.

The USA and UK are currently trying to annihilate their own soft power.
I've always associated hard power with direct intervention militarily. Clearly that was incorrect.
 

Satinavian

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I think it might be better for Australia to keep some more distance from the US in the future. There are just not enough benefits of being a close ally.
 

Trunkage

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I think it might be better for Australia to keep some more distance from the US in the future. There are just not enough benefits of being a close ally.
I’ve been saying that since we became the ‘coalition of the willing’ over clear lies. Stop making us kill innocents over your family vendetta Bush
 

Agema

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I’ve been saying that since we became the ‘coalition of the willing’ over clear lies. Stop making us kill innocents over your family vendetta Bush
The issue here is that having the USA on side could be a huge benefit in terms of influence.

Let's say Australia wants Indonesia to do something. Aus might not have that much sway, but if the USA is on good terms with Aus, it might lend a hand. Signing up for the USA's foreign military escapades was part of the deal. It's similar for the UK. After WW2, France and the UK both had to contemplate a world where they were no longer major powers. France looked to European alliances to create a new power bloc, and the UK looked to the USA. The UK would assist the USA, and the USA would in return lend its weight to the UK when needed. That was DeGaulle's objection to the UK joining the EEC decades ago: when push came to shove, the UK would choose the USA over Europe. And isn't Brexit just proof of that.

This US alliance was valid even to the Gulf War, although the cracks have been increasingly starting to show. The problem is now that the USA is looking increasingly unreliable. It's not just Trump, it's the voters behind him who are supporting his "America First" agenda, who will continue that in later presidents too. Australia, UK etc. cannot now expect the same amity or sense of mutual support from the USA, more a very calculated quid pro quo where the USA expects to get the better of the deal. Aus and the UK may "give", but when they come to "take", find the USA unwilling to reciprocate.

I don't think Aus can look to China, either. I think it probably needs an Eastern Pacific Rim alliance, as all the countries from South Korea and Japan through SE Asia have to worry about China throwing its weight around. India may also be an option initially, although India is surely just going to end up being another domineering superpower in the long run.
 

Hawki

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I don't think Aus can look to China, either. I think it probably needs an Eastern Pacific Rim alliance, as all the countries from South Korea and Japan through SE Asia have to worry about China throwing its weight around. India may also be an option initially, although India is surely just going to end up being another domineering superpower in the long run.
Okay, I have to ask, why are we (and I'm using the royal we here) so worried about China, and having to "contain" it?

Would I want to live in China? Not really, no - I don't like the idea of living under a one party state that's dictatorial. But while China has enormous economic influence, what hard power does it have, at least in comparison to the US? I think it has a grand total of about one overseas military base. China hasn't invaded any country in the 21st century. What military moves it's made is mostly contained to the South China Sea. If I was taking an entirely self-interested view on things, if China made a move on any Asian nation, why should I, an Australian, care? I can give you plenty of moral reasons, but geo-political ones? That's much harder.

This extends to other countries as well - Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Venezuela, etc. Do these countries have poor human rights records? Yes. Are they a threat to places like the US? Hardly. Least not a threat in any direct sense. And of that list, Saudi Arabia seems to have escaped sanctions. Can't imagine why...
 

Agema

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Okay, I have to ask, why are we (and I'm using the royal we here) so worried about China, and having to "contain" it?
I would suggest its unilaterial claims of territory (South China Sea, Senkaku islands) are something of a statement of intent. It's military is limited... currently. In thirty years time, it might not be.

My general position is that countries can try to stay out of the games of major powers, but in the end, they get sucked in anyway. In a worst case scenario, they're like the Netherlands, Denmark or Norway in WW2 and get stamped on just because they're unlucky enough to be in the way or a power thinks they might decide to take sides, or even just that it wants what they've got and thinks it's easier to take it. The best way to avoid being coerced is to impede a potential aggressor growing so powerful that one day it'll be in a position to do so.
 

Hawki

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I would suggest its unilaterial claims of territory (South China Sea, Senkaku islands) are something of a statement of intent. It's military is limited... currently. In thirty years time, it might not be.
China's claims are certainly spurious, but I'm dubious as to whether that's a statement of intent on a global scale.

I'm hardly an expert on Chinese culture or history, but from what I've read, China's generally been an insular civilization. It's certainly exerted influence over its neighbours, but it's never had the dynamic expansionism that we've seen in other civilizations, like Europe, the Arabs, or the Mongols. I know that China is recovering from what it calls "The Century of Humiliation," but does that translate into expansionism? So far, not beyond its own backyard, so to speak. One can certainly criticize China's so-called debt trap diplomacy," but that isn't the same as using hard power in the way the US has over the 20th and 21st centuries.

Also, if we're talking about a scale of thirty years, truth be told, the issue of climate change does come to mind more readily than China does. Part of the reason why I'm wary of trying to contain China is that we need the US and China to lead on the issue. That isn't letting the world off the hook, but what these two countries do over the next few decades could set the trend for centuries.

My general position is that countries can try to stay out of the games of major powers, but in the end, they get sucked in anyway. In a worst case scenario, they're like the Netherlands, Denmark or Norway in WW2 and get stamped on just because they're unlucky enough to be in the way or a power thinks they might decide to take sides, or even just that it wants what they've got and thinks it's easier to take it. The best way to avoid being coerced is to impede a potential aggressor growing so powerful that one day it'll be in a position to do so.
That's true, but I'm not sure if the analogy holds.

Could the US and China fall into a Thucilides trap? Yes, potentially. But China isn't Nazi Germany. And while I almost fell into a WWI analogy here, I'm not sure if that's the case either. I mean, the US has an ally with Japan, but Japan doesn't really project its power outward much. The US has an ally in South Korea, but that's mainly in the context of keeping North Korea at bay. China sort of has an alliance with North Korea, but it's struck me as a begrudging one, with China wanting to prevent North Korea from collapsing to prevent a flow of refugees. Apart from that, China sort of has Russia, but Russia these days seems more interested in eastern Europe and the Middle East - two regions that China doesn't seem to be interested in. So as powerful as China is, it's reasonably isolated - like, there's no equivalent of NATO for China and Russia. And then there's India, which is also a rising power, but seems to be mainly interested in Pakistan, Khasmir, and, I dunno, Hindu nationalism (if anything, Modi arguably has more similarities with Hitler right now than Xi, though thankfully he's not nearly as far down the road).

Point is, China's ambitions right now are mainly regional. And I'm not sure if the power dynamic of the 20th century can apply to the 21st, in that the first half of the 20th was largely the hegemony of European empires, and the second half was the Cold War. In the 21st though, there's no one dynamic that dictates the global order. Like, we're talking about China and the US right now, but is that going to matter to the people of the Middle East, who have to deal with the Iran/Saudi Cold War, Yemen (an extension of that cold war in a lot of ways), the Syrian Civil War, and Turkish nationalism? Arguably not.
 

Agema

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China's claims are certainly spurious, but I'm dubious as to whether that's a statement of intent on a global scale.

I'm hardly an expert on Chinese culture or history, but from what I've read, China's generally been an insular civilization. It's certainly exerted influence over its neighbours, but it's never had the dynamic expansionism that we've seen in other civilizations, like Europe, the Arabs, or the Mongols.
In a sense, by dominating its neighbours, it effectively did control the world. Sure, it knew Persia, India, and places further afield existed, but the geography meant that apart from limited trade routes, they may as well have been another planet. China believed in, I think, the idea of the "Mandate of Heaven" - the emperor was emperor over all of the Earth. Trade relations involved a tributary system, whereby countries (at least nominally, I don't think anyone was that fooled) admitted the superiority of the Chinese emperor. Thus China had the idea it was lord of all it surveyed.

One might argue China's limiting factor was keeping China together: China was substantially larger in area or population than (for instance) the Roman Empire. There's a point where limited technology restricts expansion. Huge empires like the Mongols' were hopelessly unstable and disintegrated virtually as soon as the conqueror who forged them died.

I know that China is recovering from what it calls "The Century of Humiliation," but does that translate into expansionism? So far, not beyond its own backyard, so to speak. One can certainly criticize China's so-called debt trap diplomacy," but that isn't the same as using hard power in the way the US has over the 20th and 21st centuries.
Granted, yes, it's less likely to be over military action than in the past. But there are other more sophisticated ways to bend countries to another's will. I would suggest is almost an inevitability that places like China and India will seek to do as the USA and USSR before them, and France, UK and Spain before them, and increasingly bend the world to their self-interest. The mechanisms may change, but the desire for power does not.

That's true, but I'm not sure if the analogy holds.

Could the US and China fall into a Thucilides trap? Yes, potentially. But China isn't Nazi Germany. And while I almost fell into a WWI analogy here, I'm not sure if that's the case either. I mean, the US has an ally with Japan, but Japan doesn't really project its power outward much. The US has an ally in South Korea, but that's mainly in the context of keeping North Korea at bay. China sort of has an alliance with North Korea, but it's struck me as a begrudging one, with China wanting to prevent North Korea from collapsing to prevent a flow of refugees. Apart from that, China sort of has Russia, but Russia these days seems more interested in eastern Europe and the Middle East - two regions that China doesn't seem to be interested in. So as powerful as China is, it's reasonably isolated - like, there's no equivalent of NATO for China and Russia. And then there's India, which is also a rising power, but seems to be mainly interested in Pakistan, Khasmir, and, I dunno, Hindu nationalism (if anything, Modi arguably has more similarities with Hitler right now than Xi, though thankfully he's not nearly as far down the road).

Point is, China's ambitions right now are mainly regional. And I'm not sure if the power dynamic of the 20th century can apply to the 21st, in that the first half of the 20th was largely the hegemony of European empires, and the second half was the Cold War. In the 21st though, there's no one dynamic that dictates the global order. Like, we're talking about China and the US right now, but is that going to matter to the people of the Middle East, who have to deal with the Iran/Saudi Cold War, Yemen (an extension of that cold war in a lot of ways), the Syrian Civil War, and Turkish nationalism? Arguably not.
I think countries generally are looking decades ahead to some extent. Many of these plans will be vague, but they will have them.

China doesn't need a NATO, it is one by itself. It has a higher population than the entirety of NATO, and these days potentially a greater raw industrial capacity, too (albeit not by dollar value). For instance, China produces about half the world's steel and cement.
 

Fieldy409

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Guess you guys were right in my other thread, US doesn't treat us much better despite being their allies....