Baldur's Gate 3

Old_Hunter_77

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omg I just learned what a spell slot is from watching a video. I'm playing as a sorcerer so, you know, kind of important.

Playing this game for me is gonna be like learning to code- you learn a bit, fumble around, learn more about why, and sort of hopefully make something happen
 

Casual Shinji

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I don't for a moment understand the appeal of Souls games.
I can certainly see the appeal, but they can still kindly fuck of by virtue of their controls alone.

As for BG3... It doesn't surplant all other games. It doesn't even surplant all other RPGs. It's just a really good RPG with great characters. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Old_Hunter_77

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As for BG3... It doesn't surplant all other games. It doesn't even surplant all other RPGs. It's just a really good RPG with great characters. 🤷‍♂️
Yep- which is exactly why I started playing despite.. well, everything, hahah.

I had just replayed Tsushima and am looking forward to AC: Mirage and Spiderman 2, and I will defend every day the tightly curated, cinematic "omg you're just playing a movie" game, and being a character that professionals design and act and write for. That is still my favorite type of game. But sometimes you need something very different and the whole "I dunno let's just try stuff" aspect was appealing to me very much.

I also am pleasantly surprised at one part of the experience I was worried about: dice rolling during conversations. Skill/performance checks, or whatever. Maybe it's the gambler in me but I actually am loving these moments. Anytime I get a dialogue option with one of [WISDDOM] [PERSUASION] [INTIMIDATION] I get a little excited.
 

Casual Shinji

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I had just replayed Tsushima and am looking forward to AC: Mirage and Spiderman 2, and I will defend every day the tightly curated, cinematic "omg you're just playing a movie" game, and being a character that professionals design and act and write for. That is still my favorite type of game. But sometimes you need something very different and the whole "I dunno let's just try stuff" aspect was appealing to me very much.
Hey, me too. It was a cinematic game - Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee - that got me into gaming.
 

Bartholen

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Just because I love pettily beating this long dead horse, BG3 has made me go back and watch some let's plays of Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous to try and figure out why one works for me and why the other doesn't. The differences are immediately apparent in the most obvious element possible: the UI of WotR is simply godawful. Not only do the menus look like an accounting software, it's one of the worst information overloads I've ever seen in gaming. What's more, every description is overly wordy and long, as if it was taken from a rulebook verbatim. But then WotR takes a complete 180, and makes two of perhaps the most baffling UI omissions I've ever seen by not including a minimap, and not displaying ranges on screen. Especially the latter just made my brain collapse, because so many abilities are dependent on being used at specific ranges in that game. Then there's the teeny weeny healthbars that clip into each other...

BG3 at least seems to understand that it doesn't need to show all the information on screen at once. And actually has a minimap.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Read the god damn articles! Straight from the Larian CEO's mouth:


Jesus wept.
Why does that mean that he's not including the whole company? Team size mainly increased to increase production values. You can make the same game as BG3 with lower production value and a smaller team just like Larian did with Divinity Original Sin. People aren't liking BG3 only because the graphics are better, it's because it's a better RPG than the vast majority of RPGs.

Really ridiculous that you cut out literally everything you're wrong about. You cut out the part that you didn't even know what the fuck the IGN video was even about until recently yet we merely didn't like it because it didn't agree with our preconceived notions. You only stepped in out of shear ignorance (as you admitted) to say that we were wrong when you didn't even know what the fuck was even being talked about.
 

Casual Shinji

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So whenever this game throws you into turn-based action outside of combat it can really fuck right off. I just got to the Arcane Tower, and boy howdy did my goodwill toward this game bleed out fast. Who at Larian thought turn-based navigation is in anyway fun?
 
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Baffle

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So whenever this game throws you into turn-based action outside of combat it can really fuck right off. I just got to the Arcane Tower, and boy howdy did my goodwill toward this game bleed out fast. Who at Larian thought turn-based navigation is in anyway fun?
Just waste some haste potions to get them out of the way ASAP.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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I ran into that problem yesterday when exploring the ruins at the very beginning of the game. It took me a while to figure out that you can toggle between turn based and regular at will.

This is basically how I’m dealing with the game- I expected a lot of futzing a frustration and back-tracking and confusion. I’m just counting on the game’s strengths and me learning enough of the mechanics (and of course easiest difficulty mode) to carry me through.

Yesterday I encountered the Baba Yaga figured and got as far as her lair but then got so frustrated with trying to navigate it I wiped hours of progress to a state before getting anywhere near there. Then I spent a good chunk of time trying different ways to rescue a dude from a burning building until i gave up being clever and just ran through everything.

I have also become an absolute save-scummer. But mostly it’s to undo mechanical mistakes or to back out of fights I know I can’t win anyway.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Oh, also I found Karlach, which I think means I need to decide about which fighter to have in my party, her or Lizael.

I’m a sorceress so I figure I don’t need another magician. I’m pretty sure I need Shadowheart and Astarian for balance.
 

Casual Shinji

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Just waste some haste potions to get them out of the way ASAP.
Lack of speed isn't the problem, lack of free movement is. You're asked to explore and investigate an area, just as you have done dozens of times before, but in this case you're forced to do so with the same movement restrictions (and character switching) you have during combat. The game trains you to think that whenever you're switched to turn-based mode that there's enemies that need to be defeated, at which point the game switches you back to free mode. But when there's no enemies it's like 'Okay, what the fuck am I supposed to do?' You can't even untrigger it by moving away from the area. And it's not like it's an automatic response to you being in danger, because there's plenty of environmental hazards that can damage and even kill you during free-roaming. I just... I just don't get.
I ran into that problem yesterday when exploring the ruins at the very beginning of the game. It took me a while to figure out that you can toggle between turn based and regular at will.
Well then, could you tell me what button you pressed to switch it off, because I for the life of me can't escape it. Unless you mean the L3 button, which let's you point-and-click, but that's not it.

While I'm in a complaining mood, there's some moments of disconnect between past events and character dialoge. Real rookie mistakes too. For example, I killed a big bad dude during a quest to rescue some gnomes. I then return to a friendly NPC to complete a different quest, after which he asks me to kill and bring back the head of the big bad dude I recently killed. Nothing wrong yet, the NPC has no way of knowing a smoked that guy already, BUT then Karlach says 'Wow, that big bad dude sounds like trouble, we should take care of him, right?' And I'm like 'Karlach, you were fucking there when we murdered him.' And that wasn't the only such moment.

And I'm just gonna bring it up again... Why can't we have more than 4 people in our party when we have them? Why do RPGs still do this? This isn't a sports team, this is life and death - why would Gale, Karlach, Shadowheart, Lae'zeel, Astarion, and... the other guy just not all be there during combat? Enemies are allowed numbers over 4 on the field, but not me? 🤷‍♂️ Do we all just accept this cuz that's just how RPG do, because the older I get the more I'm confused why no one else is raising this issue. Get rid of this stupid restriction developers, for the love of God.
 

Baffle

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Well then, could you tell me what button you pressed to switch it off, because I for the life of me can't escape it. Unless you mean the L3 button, which let's you point-and-click, but that's not it.
Apparently in the RT wheel menu? (I played on PC so I'm not sure what this is like or whether it's correct.)
 

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Enemies are allowed numbers over 4 on the field, but not me? 🤷‍♂️ Do we all just accept this cuz that's just how RPG do, because the older I get the more I'm confused why no one else is raising this issue. Get rid of this stupid restriction developers, for the love of God.
If it makes you feel any better Eiyuden Chronicle looks like it allows you to have 6 people in your party. Hooray for progress?

 

Old_Hunter_77

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Apparently in the RT wheel menu? (I played on PC so I'm not sure what this is like or whether it's correct.)
yes- R2 to bring up the menu that also lets you select journal and map etc, and there’s one on the left called something like “active turn mode” or some such
 

Bartholen

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And I'm just gonna bring it up again... Why can't we have more than 4 people in our party when we have them? Why do RPGs still do this? This isn't a sports team, this is life and death - why would Gale, Karlach, Shadowheart, Lae'zeel, Astarion, and... the other guy just not all be there during combat? Enemies are allowed numbers over 4 on the field, but not me? 🤷‍♂️ Do we all just accept this cuz that's just how RPG do, because the older I get the more I'm confused why no one else is raising this issue. Get rid of this stupid restriction developers, for the love of God.
  1. Game balance. BG3 is based off of the 5th edition of Dungeons & Dragons, which is mostly optimized to be played with parties of 4-5 people (because that's the amount you can comfortably fit at most dinner tables). Hence, BG3 carries the same balancing principles. There are mods on PC to let you wield the entire cast as a full party, and it absolutely destroys the game balance. And over the course of the game you can gain further party members from NPCs, so a truly "full" party in BG3 would be over double digits. In a tabletop setting with more players the DM can throw more enemies in or turn their difficulty up at will, but video games don't have the same flexibility. Plus the game already has megatons of context-specific and character-reliant dialogue and responses to situations, so trying to do that with a party of 7 would probably be a logistics nightmare.
  2. Inventory management. I don't know how far into the game you are, but even with 4 characters you're going to do plenty of time switching, comparing and optimizing gear. And that's before you get far enough into the game that preparation buffs start taking time too. I can't even begin to imagine how much more it would be with the entire cast going about at the same time.
So whenever this game throws you into turn-based action outside of combat it can really fuck right off. I just got to the Arcane Tower, and boy howdy did my goodwill toward this game bleed out fast. Who at Larian thought turn-based navigation is in anyway fun?
This is done because in those situations there are usually environmental hazards so dangerous that they can kill you in seconds of real time that you're either meant to escape from or take out (like the arcane turrets). They're not quite combat, I guess you could call them environmental challenges. As you've been told, you can switch between turn-based and real time mode outside of combat any time you want.

I ran into that problem yesterday when exploring the ruins at the very beginning of the game. It took me a while to figure out that you can toggle between turn based and regular at will.

This is basically how I’m dealing with the game- I expected a lot of futzing a frustration and back-tracking and confusion. I’m just counting on the game’s strengths and me learning enough of the mechanics (and of course easiest difficulty mode) to carry me through.

Yesterday I encountered the Baba Yaga figured and got as far as her lair but then got so frustrated with trying to navigate it I wiped hours of progress to a state before getting anywhere near there. Then I spent a good chunk of time trying different ways to rescue a dude from a burning building until i gave up being clever and just ran through everything.

I have also become an absolute save-scummer. But mostly it’s to undo mechanical mistakes or to back out of fights I know I can’t win anyway.
My recommendation is to hammer F5 like it's a nail that won't go into place. One of BG3's biggest flaws is definitely how it doesn't autosave nearly often enough (probably due to its open-endedness), which has led me to repeating an hour's worth of progress multiple times.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Yeah i been saving a lot.
For now i don’t mind “losing progress” because I’m treating this as a learning exercise. All of this will make sense if/when I just get more comfortable with the mechanics.
 

Casual Shinji

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  1. Game balance. BG3 is based off of the 5th edition of Dungeons & Dragons, which is mostly optimized to be played with parties of 4-5 people (because that's the amount you can comfortably fit at most dinner tables). Hence, BG3 carries the same balancing principles. There are mods on PC to let you wield the entire cast as a full party, and it absolutely destroys the game balance. And over the course of the game you can gain further party members from NPCs, so a truly "full" party in BG3 would be over double digits. In a tabletop setting with more players the DM can throw more enemies in or turn their difficulty up at will, but video games don't have the same flexibility. Plus the game already has megatons of context-specific and character-reliant dialogue and responses to situations, so trying to do that with a party of 7 would probably be a logistics nightmare.
  2. Inventory management. I don't know how far into the game you are, but even with 4 characters you're going to do plenty of time switching, comparing and optimizing gear. And that's before you get far enough into the game that preparation buffs start taking time too. I can't even begin to imagine how much more it would be with the entire cast going about at the same time.
You wouldn't even need to have everyone on the field all the time, just make it so you can switch characters out or drop them in mid-combat. And that you could only manage the items of the four characters in your team (outside of camp). At the very least give an in-universe explaination as to why you can only have a party of four, like only four parasitic brains can be together during stressful situations otherwise they fry eachother out or whatever.

As it is it's just this thing in the corner that's totally there, but we're just not supposed to acknowledge it, like with every other team-based RPG.
 

Bartholen

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Having now reached act 3 on Tactician mode, I'll bet a zillion bucks that either Larian or modders are going to introduce newer, even harder difficulty modes. Because man, there's just no challenge in this game at all. I had to retry Ketheric Thorm twice, and both times not really because the challenge seemed like too much, but because a single unexpected thing happened that would have prevented me from doing the fight ideally. The game is so stacked in the player's favor that familiarity with 5e and Larian's systems will remove any and all challenge and make it a cakewalk.
They even give you a full restore of health, spell slots and resources right before the Avatar of Myrkul, meaning you're free to go total sicko mode in the fight with zero consequences
 
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Satinavian

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You wouldn't even need to have everyone on the field all the time, just make it so you can switch characters out or drop them in mid-combat. And that you could only manage the items of the four characters in your team (outside of camp).
Jup, that would be an improvement. Often you have personal quests for several people in the same area and don't want to turn back to camp several times to change people.
Oh, and when actually in camp you should be able to manage the inventory of everyone.

The pathfinder games did both better. While they did restrict party member switching to your bases or let you pay for travel time, they did ot make you load additional maps for it and go through several dialogues. It was just done in the mape mode you were in anyway. And inventory management was easier as well.

@Bartholen
Yes, it is certainly more power fantasy than challenging.
 

Ag3ma

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Oh, also I found Karlach, which I think means I need to decide about which fighter to have in my party, her or Lizael.

I’m a sorceress so I figure I don’t need another magician. I’m pretty sure I need Shadowheart and Astarian for balance.
I don't think you need a balanced party in the traditional sense. But if you want a "thief" type character (stealth, trap disarming, etc.) it's pretty easy to do with another character. Just select the requisite skills at creation or the level 4 character development picks. So, a mage, two fighters and a priest is perfectly viable if you want both Karlach and Lae'zel.