Baldur's Gate: tried to catch up on this classic, didn't age too well :(

[Draba]

With the recent release of Baldur's Gate: EE, I thought it's time pay an old debt to one of the best crpgs out there. Gotta personally see Minsc and Boo in action. When the original games appeared my rpg fix came from Fallout 1-2, Gothic, Deus Ex, Vampire: The Masquerade ? Redemption and Diablo 2 so I managed to miss them. I got the EE and went to town. Problem is, age really shows and for me it destroys the whole experience.

The good:

- The environment is done with an ageless design. I like these kind of hand drawn isometric worlds, Baldur's Gate is right up there with Commandos in style. The generic forests get a little repetitive though.
- Some battles need a bit of planning. Still not among the greats for me, I play the dedicated tactical games like Silent Storm, Fallout Tactics, Jagged Alliance, Icewind Dale 2 or X-Com for those kinds of challenges.
- Minsc and Boo



The bad:

- 2nd edition rules:
Imho simplistic and a bit silly at places(the thac0 system comes to mind ). The first D&D rpg I played was Neverwinter Nights, so
3rd edition spoiled me with the ability bonuses, feats, prestige classes, actual skills/proficiencies, better saving throws and the like.
After that going back to 2nd felt pretty bad.

- Clunky interface:
After arriving at the friendly arm a mage attacks my party of 4. The next minute was spent trying to get at least 2 of them actually attack him while he murders absolutely everyone.

Very slow movement: frustration got to a point where I just teleported my party around in explored terrain, otherwise let Minsc scout in haste boots and port everyone to points of interest.

The spell glyphs are ugly and barely readable. Of course this comes with the age, but NWN 1-2 did such a great job with the spellbook/spell effects it sticked out like a sore thumb.

It's overall very hard to manage battles. I play these kinds of games with more pausing than actual action, but still occasionally lost track of what's happening.

- Storytelling/npc interaction isn't as immersive as others led me to believe:
The story is fine, but didn't really grab me like Deus Ex/Fallout 2 in their time. Of course the tools for telling it are pretty limited, that may be one of the causes. NPC chatter is basically nonexistent, Dragon Age did set the bar high in that area.

- Difficulty isn't that high:
I've read up on 2nd edition rules + picked out the npcs I found entertaining from a list, that was the extent of my preparation.
I originally planned to roll a jolly neutral cleric/fighter dwarf. After noticing that Yeslick will be exactly that,
I went with the only rpg trope missing: the friggin girly elven ranger/archer with longbows(yes, I know I'm a terrible person).
I consciously avoided mages/codzilla setups since they tend to make everything too easy in D&D games I know of.

Attributes weren't rolled, just 90 points distributed. I hate the hit die randomness so just switched to easy on levelups and played on
insane to compensate for the extra hp. After the friendly arm melee incident I've just given everyone but Yeslick bows/slings, when I found the turboboots and freedom of movement greatsword Minsc got those to add some extra punch against tough guys.

The result:
Tough enemies get 1-2 actions off. That either kills someone outright(reload time, save scumming filth ) or my main archer absolutely murderkilldeathstomps them by himself in 2 turns. If the others somehow manage to hit or the party uses some offensive spells it's even uglier. Summed up it's a steamroll with some exceptionally tough enemies having binary win/lose moves.
Later I did find out that mass ranged weapons are very strong in BG1, but the main char felt like Rambo just by himself.


I hoped once I'm a bit deeper the game gets better, but in the end this felt more like a chore. I gave up after getting to Baldur's Gate.
Just had to vent a bit, had so high expectations. If I played it when it came out I'd probably think of BG like the first 2 Fallouts, this way it was another bad game.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

- 2nd edition rules: Imho simplistic and a bit silly at places(the thac0 system comes to mind ). The first D&D rpg I played was Neverwinter Nights, so 3rd edition spoiled me with the ability bonuses, feats, prestige classes, actual skills/proficiencies, better saving throws and the like. After that going back to 2nd felt pretty bad.

Bleargh. I loved 2nd edition. 3rd edition was like a tumor on a leper's ass in comparison.

Really though, BG1 was never the most amazing RPG. It's mostly notable as being the progenitor for BG2, which was superior in almost every respect. And the infinity engine, alas, was clunky even when the games were new.

I remember the then renowned RPG critic Scorpia slammed Baldur's Gate when it was released, implying it "wasn't a real RPG", and contrasting it negatively against enshrined classics like Ultima IV. It's part of why I find it tremendously funny that, over a decade later, we have people slamming modern RPGs and holding them up against enshrined classics like Baldur's Gate. There's always someone with their panties in a knot to tell you what a "real RPG" is and why the game you're enjoying sucks.

But I digress.

 

[BeeGeenie]

Sorry to hear it isn't floating your boat; glad to hear you're a fan of IWD2 though. Each of the infinity engine games had their strengths and weaknesses, and BG was the first, so some clunkiness is to be expected. It took me several attempts before I could bring myself to play it all the way through.
Most of your problems with it were improved in the sequel, so you could always stick with BG2: all of the Minsc, and less of the clunk. Or just go back to Kuldahar

 

[WoW Killer]

Waaaaaaaaay more depth in 3rd edition tbh xD

I never did get through Baldur's Gate. Unfortunately that was back in the days of Windows 98 and with a subpar rig. Even stable games had frequent crashes. With BG I might get 5-10 minutes of play at a time before a BSOD or hard reset. The most I remember is stealing a shit-ton of these magic shields from this one vendor, then getting annoyed I couldn't sell them back to him again. I think I went up north to the capital city trying to find a fence and that's about as far as I got.

I don't particularly like pauseable realtime when you're controlling a group though. I liked NWN where you just had the one hero, but not so much NWN2.

 

[Tallim]

As it is it didn't age well. That's why I like modding it to death. I've not tried the EE as I don't feel like shelling out for it given that I've seen it said many times that just modding the originals properly gives a comparatively equal experience give or take a few refinements.

However I do like 2nd edition as I feel that the only game that has done the later editions justice has been Temple Of Elemental Evil which had an amazing combat system but was lacking in a few places (which modders smoothed out again)

 

[Draba]

Most of your problems with it were improved in the sequel, so you could always stick with BG2: all of the Minsc, and less of the clunk. Or just go back to Kuldahar

Will probably check out BG2 when the EE is done. Right now I've got my sights on Temple of Elemental Evil, looks like just what I expected BG to be(and made by Troika, to boot).

I don't particularly like pauseable realtime when you're controlling a group though. I liked NWN where you just had the one hero, but not so much NWN2.

I've felt the same way, the only squad based games I loved were Commandos and Jagged Alliance.
Recently played some Silent Storm and Fallout Tactics(heard so many bad things about this one and it's great), got to a point where I enjoy the party/squad based games more. Only catch is I usually muck around until I manage to create my own custom party, hate playing with gimped premade characters if they are not done like in Dragon Age Origins(Sten dialogue rocked).

However I do like 2nd edition as I feel that the only game that has done the later editions justice has been Temple Of Elemental Evil which had an amazing combat system but was lacking in a few places (which modders smoothed out again)

Looks great and I already liked the 3+ edition Icewind Dale 2 and NWNs, if the combat is better than those my sunday is probably gone

 

[BeeGeenie]

Most of your problems with it were improved in the sequel, so you could always stick with BG2: all of the Minsc, and less of the clunk. Or just go back to Kuldahar

Will probably check out BG2 when the EE is done. Right now I've got my sights on Temple of Elemental Evil, looks like just what I expected BG to be(and made by Troika, to boot).

True, TOEE is also pretty good. Sounds like what you're looking for. Just remember to get it patched, and make plenty of saves, 'cause it's notoriously buggy. I've had many a corrupted save file :'(

 

[BloatedGuppy]

True, TOEE is also pretty good. Sounds like what you're looking for. Just remember to get it patched, and make plenty of saves, 'cause it's notoriously buggy. I've had many a corrupted save file :'(

I just replayed TOEE recently, as it happens. It still plays pretty good, although it bears a lot more resemblance to turn based tactical games like JA than an RPG proper. I had fun with it.

Oh right...and I'm quoting you because it's still buggy as fuck. OP should absolutely save like a champion.

 

[Tallim]

True, TOEE is also pretty good. Sounds like what you're looking for. Just remember to get it patched, and make plenty of saves, 'cause it's notoriously buggy. I've had many a corrupted save file :'(

I just replayed TOEE recently, as it happens. It still plays pretty good, although it bears a lot more resemblance to turn based tactical games like JA than an RPG proper. I had fun with it.

Oh right...and I'm quoting you because it's still buggy as fuck. OP should absolutely save like a champion.

Did you play it with the Circle Of Eight mod installed? Pretty much the only way to play it IMO. Fixes a ton of stuff, makes other parts more intuitive and adds back in a lot of content that got shelved.

The main problem with TOEE is it is based on the module of the same name which is little more than a large dungeon crawl. However because the combat is extremely good it makes it easier to overlook the lack of roleplaying that goes into it. Still a quality game if somewhat marred by some problems.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Did you play it with the Circle Of Eight mod installed? Pretty much the only way to play it IMO. Fixes a ton of stuff, makes other parts more intuitive and adds back in a lot of content that got shelved.

The main problem with TOEE is it is based on the module of the same name which is little more than a large dungeon crawl. However because the combat is extremely good it makes it easier to overlook the lack of roleplaying that goes into it. Still a quality game if somewhat marred by some problems.

Sure did! Still buggy. It did add some stuff though. And in fairness, it wasn't anywhere near as buggy as it was on release. I bought and played it at release as well, and it's got to be top 5 of the buggiest games of all time, behind Battlecruiser 3000 AD and Ultima IX.

I could dig more games in the same vein. I love tactical combat. And TOEE was actually pretty decent for it.

 

[Tallim]

Did you play it with the Circle Of Eight mod installed? Pretty much the only way to play it IMO. Fixes a ton of stuff, makes other parts more intuitive and adds back in a lot of content that got shelved.

The main problem with TOEE is it is based on the module of the same name which is little more than a large dungeon crawl. However because the combat is extremely good it makes it easier to overlook the lack of roleplaying that goes into it. Still a quality game if somewhat marred by some problems.

Sure did! Still buggy. It did add some stuff though. And in fairness, it wasn't anywhere near as buggy as it was on release. I bought and played it at release as well, and it's got to be top 5 of the buggiest games of all time, behind Battlecruiser 3000 AD and Ultima IX.

I could dig more games in the same vein. I love tactical combat. And TOEE was actually pretty decent for it.

Yeah I got it release day and it was a pain to play. So many issues that cropped up all over the place without warning. Still I muddled through it and I still love it, even more so with Circle Of Eight.

 

[Slycne]

It's ok, I'll love it enough for the both of us and possibly a few other people.

I might disagree on nearly every point, but ultimately if it's not your thing it's just not your thing.

 

[Rack]

I don't know how the EE compares to the modded base edition, but it doesn't seem to be that favourable. Spell effects are improved in the sequel, there's a ton of much improved content. If you set the fps to 45 or 60 it helps the pacing a lot. 2nd edition D&D is pretty bad, but the difference between it and 3rd edition compared to the difference between 3rd edition and an actually good roleplaying system such as Five Rings is absolutely negligible. As a result there's no way I could possibly considered myself "spoiled" by any roleplaying system in any CRPG, they are all similarly god-awful.

So yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but once you get past all this there's a great game to play.

 

[eventhorizon525]

Sorry to hear you don't care for it. I actually just picked up BG:EE and have been having an utter blast with it. Yes, THAC0 came from a dark place and some design decisions displease me (bards get armor and spellcasting, but can't cast in the vast majority of armor they have proficiency in, but still can't wear robes) but otherwise it has been a very solid rpg so far.

Keep in mind, I played NWN2 far more than is probably healthy, and have gone through NWN1 once (got it a lot later). So yes, I do prefer 3.5e, (since a heavily homeruled version is what I use in the game I'm running), but I find there is a certain charm to it.

And seriously, bards getting a non restricted (expect max spell level) spell list? Hello blaster bard wielding a longbow.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I wish the interface wasn't as clunky. For an enhanced edition, they sure left a lot of the obtuse design choices in.

 

[The Madman]

- Storytelling/npc interaction isn't as immersive as others led me to believe:
The story is fine, but didn't really grab me like Deus Ex/Fallout 2 in their time. Of course the tools for telling it are pretty limited, that may be one of the causes. NPC chatter is basically nonexistent, Dragon Age did set the bar high in that area.

You are absolutely correct in this regard. One of the things that separates the original Baldur's Gate from its sequel Baldur's Gate 2 is the quality of interaction with your companions. It's with Baldur's Gate 2 that you'll see the characters and story suddenly flourish, by default however with the original title the cast is in general quite silent. Almost depressingly so. To its credit Baldur's Gate did set the groundwork for what was to come, but standing on its own it can be hard to appreciate when we're so used to its predecessors.

It's why I can't replay the original without also installing the BG1 NPC Project which brings the quality and volume of banter up to a level more comparable to BG2. Unfortunately that mod is also not compatible with the 'Enhanced Edition' yet, a compatible version is apparently in the works but that could take a long time before it happens due to the complexity of the mod and the changes that would need to be made for the Enhanced Edition. When it is eventually made compatible I would extremely highly suggest checking it out!

Anyway if you're at least intrigued by Baldur's Gate I would recommend finishing it and moving on to BG2 which is an improvement in very nearly every way possible. No need to wait for an enhanced edition, BG2 still looks and plays fantastic today. 2nd edition DnD becomes considerably more interesting at higher levels, the artwork is leagues better than the rough backgrounds used for BG1, the story is more compelling with one of the most memorable villains in gaming, and as mentioned the characters are more interactive. Behaving more like, well, characters instead of just walking class sets with a few lines of dialogue.

 

[Trinab]

- Storytelling/npc interaction isn't as immersive as others led me to believe:
The story is fine, but didn't really grab me like Deus Ex/Fallout 2 in their time. Of course the tools for telling it are pretty limited, that may be one of the causes. NPC chatter is basically nonexistent, Dragon Age did set the bar high in that area.

You are absolutely correct in this regard. One of the things that separates the original Baldur's Gate from its sequel Baldur's Gate 2 is the quality of interaction with your companions. It's with Baldur's Gate 2 that you'll see the characters and story suddenly flourish, by default however with the original title the cast is in general quite silent. Almost depressingly so. To its credit Baldur's Gate did set the groundwork for what was to come, but standing on its own it can be hard to appreciate when we're so used to its predecessors.

It's why I can't replay the original without also installing the BG1 NPC Project which brings the quality and volume of banter up to a level more comparable to BG2. Unfortunately that mod is also not compatible with the 'Enhanced Edition' yet, a compatible version is apparently in the works but that could take a long time before it happens due to the complexity of the mod and the changes that would need to be made for the Enhanced Edition. When it is eventually made compatible I would extremely highly suggest checking it out!

Anyway if you're at least intrigued by Baldur's Gate I would recommend finishing it and moving on to BG2 which is an improvement in very nearly every way possible. No need to wait for an enhanced edition, BG2 still looks and plays fantastic today. 2nd edition DnD becomes considerably more interesting at higher levels, the artwork is leagues better than the rough backgrounds used for BG1, the story is more compelling with one of the most memorable villains in gaming, and as mentioned the characters are more interactive. Behaving more like, well, characters instead of just walking class sets with a few lines of dialogue.

I agree with everything the Madman says above.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I prefer 3.5ed for the ability to create almost any character concept coneivable. My first NWN character at the time was a dual-blade wielding wizard (possible inspired by Darth Maul). Since I've had shapeshifting rogues, dual wielding warlocks and....well I stopped at the warlock but I've made my point

BG is tougher to play than its successor, agreed, but once one gets into it, I think it's easy to lose oneself in the world, the story and forget the graphics and system. I've always rolled pure wizard in BG and BG2. For one thing, there's not enough real magic otherwise and for another I enjoy the flexibility and variety. It's also not really a fantasy RPG/D&D game without magic to be honest.

My favourite party of all time (with a mod that prevents people leaving) was Minsc, Jaheira, Korgan, Viconia and Imoen/Yoshimo/Nalia/Jan. I've dabbled with Aeria and Keldorn and cool though they are, the former five are my favourites. I've taken to "cheating" somewhat however...if I want a different companion, because they don't get XP when not in the party, I use an editor to give them the same XP as the next lowest in my party.

It's incredible just how much game there is to be had with BG thru ToB. And the writing is spectacular, as is the cast. The bit with the silver pantaloons, with the adventurers in the beholder's cavern is such a perfect mix of tongue in cheek humour and homage to the genre. I miss when developers just made great games, rich and complex, instead of "mass-market entertainment products" with as much content removed (to be sold back later of course) as can be, not to mention honest to God expansion packs with tens of hours of gameplay.

 

[Draba]

True, TOEE is also pretty good. Sounds like what you're looking for. Just remember to get it patched, and make plenty of saves, 'cause it's notoriously buggy. I've had many a corrupted save file :'(

The Troika logo says it all

I just replayed TOEE recently, as it happens. It still plays pretty good, although it bears a lot more resemblance to turn based tactical games like JA than an RPG proper. I had fun with it.

The main problem with TOEE is it is based on the module of the same name which is little more than a large dungeon crawl. However because the combat is extremely good it makes it easier to overlook the lack of roleplaying that goes into it. Still a quality game if somewhat marred by some problems.

I'll admit I mainly play RPGs for the combat, closer to the turn based tactical game means less idle talk
The story and world has to be pretty damn great to get me interested in the dialogue. The game I liked most for those parts is the first Gothic. Simple combat, open world similar to the elder scrolls, but even the fluffy little rainbow ponies will murder you if you take a step in the wrong direction and don't start runnning the moment you see them. I will remember old camp/new camp/the swamp/running from a shadowbeast 15 minutes in for a long time

I don't know how the EE compares to the modded base edition, but it doesn't seem to be that favourable. Spell effects are improved in the sequel, there's a ton of much improved content. If you set the fps to 45 or 60 it helps the pacing a lot. 2nd edition D&D is pretty bad, but the difference between it and 3rd edition compared to the difference between 3rd edition and an actually good roleplaying system such as Five Rings is absolutely negligible. As a result there's no way I could possibly considered myself "spoiled" by any roleplaying system in any CRPG, they are all similarly god-awful.

So yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but once you get past all this there's a great game to play.

Anyway if you're at least intrigued by Baldur's Gate I would recommend finishing it and moving on to BG2 which is an improvement in very nearly every way possible. No need to wait for an enhanced edition, BG2 still looks and plays fantastic today. 2nd edition DnD becomes considerably more interesting at higher levels, the artwork is leagues better than the rough backgrounds used for BG1, the story is more compelling with one of the most memorable villains in gaming, and as mentioned the characters are more interactive. Behaving more like, well, characters instead of just walking class sets with a few lines of dialogue.

Tried getting past all the little annoyances, but they add up fast so I've just read the rest of the story. When I went in I actually expected the "bad" mechanics, but I thought the companions carry the game themselves even if it turns out to be a stinker. Compare that with almost complete silence(except the occasional "There is strength in numbers ..." ). I don't see myself playing BG again. On the other hand, I already knew BG2 is considered better and gets much praise here, too, there is no missing that one.

On other rpg systems: I'm pretty noob when it comes to pen & paper. My only experience comes from some 15+ years ago, played a bit of Shadowrun and a hungarian rpg called M.A.G.U.S. with some mates. Usually got stupidly drunk 2-3 hours in so counts even less

 

[Draba]

Quote instead of edit.