Batman Beyond: Would Terry's Mind Games Have Worked On Any Other Version Of The Joker?

[Cicada 5]

So remember that scene in Return of The Joker, where Terry turns the tables on the Clown Prince of Crime, mocking him as nothing but a poor comedian who's trying (and failing) to make Batman laugh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjTTmT_o5io

I've always loved that moment but I'm wondering if this could be applicable to any other versions of the Joker. Would it have worked on Ledger's version, who's not as showy as the DCAU version? How about Moore's version? Or Miller's? Hell, would it have worked on the "real" Joker that existed in the DCAU? After all the version Terry defeated was just an A.I based on the Joker's consciousness and genetic material, not the flesh and blood genuine article.

 

[Korenith]

I feel like most writers wouldn't have gone that way with Joker and it definitely wouldn't have worked on the Ledger version. The angle taken also seems a little simplistic for Moore's version.

Also, what the hell is Joker doing in a fist fight? Is that an AI thing in the Beyond version because since when did Joker fancy his chances in a brawl?

 

[Cicada 5]

I feel like most writers wouldn't have gone that way with Joker and it definitely wouldn't have worked on the Ledger version. The angle taken also seems a little simplistic for Moore's version.

Also, what the hell is Joker doing in a fist fight? Is that an AI thing in the Beyond version because since when did Joker fancy his chances in a brawl?

The A.I had taken over the body of Tim Drake, who in this universe was the second Robin. Thus, he had access to Tim's memories and training from his time as Robin.

 

[mecegirl]

I think it only worked on that version of the Joker Because of how old that Joker was. Its that Joker's lived experiences that made the tactics work. They were used to "their" Batman, not Terry. Regardless of the universe it would never work on a younger Joker.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Ledger!Joker would have still taken offence to the implication that he was boring or somehow undeserving of attention. See how he reacts at the end of TDK when the ferries refuse to blow each other up; he's frustrated, more than anything else.

Miller!Joker is so homoerotically obsessed with Batman that he wouldn't even respond to Terry McGinnis. Same for Snyder's Joker in the more recent New 52.

Moore!Joker, as portrayed in the Killing Joke, would probably have reacted the same way; with anger.

In general, I quite like that scene because it kind of cuts straight to the heart of Joker's character. If Joker wouldn't get hissy and insulted from the insinuation that he's just a boring criminal, then he wouldn't be Joker.

 

[MiskWisk]

Basically what other people have said. While Miller!Joker is probably the one who would react the most explosively, no Joker would really react well to what Terry said/implied. The fact that this Joker had spent so much of his time trying to mess with the Batman, to the point of kidnapping and attempting to brainwash a Robin into being Joker Junior probably only makes it worse. This is a Joker who has spent so much of his life tangling with Batman. He has matched him so often that even in his mind that he is the Batman's one true nemesis and the implications that he barely registered as anything special is going to rankle him.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I think when you take the crux of what Joker is normally painted as (Needing the Batman's reactions as his ultimate satiation), it's not the fact Joker would have reacted that way to the real batman, but more the fact that this is what the Joker considered to be a fake Batman not giving him the respect he deserved.

It's like if Loki was mocked by someone who could just wield Mjolnir and then started to call himself Thor.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Oh Terry would dance circles around Cesar Romero's Joker, no problem.

We must never forget THIS happened. This IS a Joker.

 

[Mangod]

How often has the Joker been heckled by people? Because I feel like I don't have enough of a frame of reference for how he would react outside of this one instance.

Ok, maybe Joker's Favor:


God, I love that episode.

 

[Saltyk]

it's not the fact Joker would have reacted that way to the real batman, but more the fact that this is what the Joker considered to be a fake Batman not giving him the respect he deserved.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that line. He was rather pissed to have the "Bat-fake" insulting him. He didn't take Terry seriously, at all. He didn't consider him a true Batman or really even worth his time. Even when Terry confronts him earlier, he talks to Bruce, saying he figures that Terry is wired up so he can see and hear everything that is going on.

He never calls Terry anything close to Batman the whole film. It's just "Bat-fake", McGinnis, or Junior. In his mind, only Bruce is his enemy. Terry is a poor substitute for that. This is a Joker that has tangled with Superman, yet never seemed even remotely intimidated by him. What is a kid simply wearing a batsuit to him?

So yeah, having some punk disrespect him really got on his nerves. Joker has a high opinion of himself and Terry was tearing that down.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

I always loved that scene too.

The only version I don't think Terry's tactic might work on was Heath!Joker since despite having a rivalry, they hadn't been at it long enough for things to escalate into a full-blown obsession and as seen with the mobsters, he's got a thicker skin when it comes to insults. He was only ever aggravated whenever someone directly (Batman) or indirectly (the people on the boats) showed him that his personal philosophy is incorrect. Or that one time when the Chechen called him a 'freak'.

Regardless, they'd all react with pretty much the same hostility to being called 'boring' or 'predictable', especially by some punk kid still in high school wearing a bat costume. That's all he can see in Terry, and by that point much like certain real life fans, he'd built Bruce Wayne into such an absolute icon in his mind that he simply can't accept anyone else in the role or consider them a threat. His mistake.

I'm actually writing a protagonist modelled after Terry's background now.

 

[Korenith]

I feel like most writers wouldn't have gone that way with Joker and it definitely wouldn't have worked on the Ledger version. The angle taken also seems a little simplistic for Moore's version.

Also, what the hell is Joker doing in a fist fight? Is that an AI thing in the Beyond version because since when did Joker fancy his chances in a brawl?

The A.I had taken over the body of Tim Drake, who in this universe was the second Robin. Thus, he had access to Tim's memories and training from his time as Robin.

Ahhh. That makes a bit more sense now. Cheers.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I only want to throw in that it's an interesting tatic because it's... well it's very much Spiderman's MO isn't it? Cracking wise and being punk and throwing the opposition off their game?

Side Note: I really love Terry. I really wish DC would do something with him again.

 

[Erttheking]

Some of them wouldn't lose their shit the same way, but all of them (Well the competently written ones, let's ignore that atrocity in All Star Batman and Robin) would certainly be mad at the insinuation, and would take steps to end the life of the person brutally and messily.

 

[Souplex]

Side Note: I really love Terry. I really wish DC would do something with him again.

Isn't there a Bateman Beyond in the new DC reboot?

 

[lazinesslord]

Side Note: I really love Terry. I really wish DC would do something with him again.

Isn't there a Bateman Beyond in the new DC reboot?

Only in name. It has nothing to do with the cartoon.

 

[lazinesslord]

I'd say most of the Jokers would fall for it. He's usually characterized as having an obsession with Batman and, as mention before on this forum, being insulted by what he sees as a fake Batman would piss him off.
I'd also add that Terry isn't dumb, he'd adjust his speech to target whatever hang ups the particular Joker would have. For example, if it was the Ledger Joker he'd mock his nihilistic philosophy.

Oh Terry would dance circles around Cesar Romero's Joker, no problem.

We must never forget THIS happened. This IS a Joker.

Ironically, Romero's Joker might be the least likely to fall for it. He has to motivation relating to ideology or Batman. He's doing it for his own amusement, what other people think be damned. Meaning that there's nothing for Terry to exploit.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

See my read was a little different. All the Jokers have their own sense of comedy and antagonistic relationship with Batman, but Romero felt different. All the other Jokers want Batman to find what they're doing to be funny. They shoot Batgirl, and Batman is supposed to laugh. They kill Robin, Batman is supposed to laugh. They do whatever to whomever, Batman is supposed to laugh. No matter the scenario, Batman, being equally crazy, is supposed to find the situation funny.
But Romero was a comedian first, criminal second. He's the type of Joker who would throw a pie in Superman's face, drip hot sauce on SuperGirl's tampons, replace Wonder Woman's magic lasso with simple rope or put a banana in front of Flash. Troll shit, but meant to be funny first, criminal act as a non-mandatory second. He fucks with people. You, Me, Batman, Riddler, all the Catwoman. Messes with them first, breaks the law second.

And I think in that light, Terry making it clear its never funny would utterly devastate him. Because it's never about the morality of crime vs being a vigilante, never about the jewels or the murder. The punchline was central to Romero and denying him the joke all-together is simply too much.

 

[FalloutJack]

Mind games on Heath Ledger? Probably not. Hamill's Joker has a pretty potent ego, while Heath's is a man who delights in getting people out of control because he just doesn't care.

 

[Glongpre]

Mind games on Heath Ledger? Probably not. Hamill's Joker has a pretty potent ego, while Heath's is a man who delights in getting people out of control because he just doesn't care.

I disagree, Heath had the same ego. Look at all the times he gets angry when the mobsters call him a freak and dismiss his ideas.

He can't stand just being dismissed as a joke.