Because of The Hunger Games, I think we're ready for a Wonder Woman movie

jademunky

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JimB said:
jademunky said:
Hey, I'm as surprised as anyone. When Geoff Johns was writing the book, Aquaman was a goddamned king; a king in exile, sure, but regal authority and dignity were emanating from him visibly like light. Even a lifelong American like me with a bone-deep disdain for monarchy as a system of government had to sit up and take notice when, say, a bank robber would shoot him in the face and Aquaman would just glare back, seemingly more offended by the indignity than angered at the attack that only drew a shallow scratch across his cheek anyway. Artist Ivan Reis probably deserves most of the credit, but Johns still wrote him as a strong-willed leader with immense dignity and a noblesse oblige that actually seemed appropriate rather than condescending.

When Johns left and the new guy took over (I forget his name), Aquaman returned to his throne and has actually lost a lot of that semi-divine awe. He's more of a...okay, I'll just say it, more of a fish out of water now, a man ill-equipped to lead his people and doing the best he can, which isn't very good because he's focusing way too much on superheroing around. There is a very obvious tragedy coming up on the horizon, probably a coup and a civil war, but Aquaman can't see it because he's too busy living the wrong life right now. The shift in tone is jarring as fuck, but if you treat the Johns run and the current run like separate books so you can ignore that gear-stripping downshift, they're pretty good.
Oh wow, ill have to actually look into that. I don't think I have ever read anything with him memorably in it besides Flashpoint (well I saw the animated film anyway) and Kingdom Come.

I guess I've been watching too much Family Guy. I keep forgetting that he actually is a really powerful superhero in his own right. "hey i've got like 5 starfish over here I can throw"
 

Casual Shinji

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Casual Shinji said:
Wonder Woman is insanely hard to market, I'm afraid. Not even because she's a woman, but because she's just... kind of an odd superhero that most people can't place too well.
She's also not that well written most of the time. She seems to lack identity in most of the comics I've read, which puts her at a disadvantage.
That's probably due to her being a feminist icon, and feminism being an ever shifting movement. And she doesn't seem to be leading the charge either, she just seems to be following whatever feminist ideals are current (now she wears pants, cuz women wear pants). She stands (from what I've heard) for something that is in constant motion, so I would think it's hard to solidify her character in any way.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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JimB said:
Vault101 said:
The fuck did I just read?
You read my slightly exaggerated but still depressingly accurate transcription of a conversation about feminism between Steve Trevor and Wonder Woman in the 2009 animated video Wonder Woman.
Which is a shame since the parts where she's decapitating Gods and punching out creatures of myth are pretty fucking sweet. Mind you if you thought that was insane, you should see what New52 has done to the Amazons: now they're kind of like sirens. To whit, they creep aboard ships at night, have sex with the male crew and kill them; and once we get to the babies things really heat up. The girls they keep as future Amazons, the boys they trade as indentured servants to Hephaestus in exchange for weapons and armor.
 

Something Amyss

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Zhukov said:
Oh? I wasn't aware of that.

Which movies were they? Were any of them any good? How did they fare?
I'm sure you can look up the craze if you wanted. I couldn't be arsed[footnote]Hell, one of them was a novel that was continuously advertised on my Kindle and I still can't tell you the name[/footnote]. I don't care how they fared. The only thing that matters in this is that if they're snapping up properties, they could easily do so for Wonder Woman.

JimB said:
If you want to say DC is currently incapable of doing the character justice, then that's fine. I totally agree. Just about everything I've read or seen her in since Morrison's run on JLA has been a complete fucking abortion. I just think it's unfair and untrue to say the problem is with the character being too complex or not having a hook or whatever else that would be the fault of the material rather than the apologists in charge of DC right now.
I want to say both, actually. There was my initial point, where I pointed out the lack of a clear and defining marketing line, in which I agreed with others. Then when you brought up the Thor comparison, a second line of argument was also germane. The latter doesn't invalidate the former, though, and I commented on it as well. I merely ALSO added that I think DC probably can't handle it while Marvel can.

I could be wrong there, and Marvel could well prove me wrong should we get a Black Widow movie (I'll believe it once it's further along than now), but I do believe that one of the bigger issues is that Marvel is in the position to make Thor and Iron Man work, while DC is in the position where they can barely make Batman OR Superman work at any given time.

However, I still maintain that the relative marketing strength of Batman and Superman comes from their relative simplicity in terms of marketing and relation to people in general. Wonder Woman isn't so easy and you have demonstrated as such yourself in trying to summarise her.

Casual Shinji said:
That's probably due to her being a feminist icon, and feminism being an ever shifting movement. And she doesn't seem to be leading the charge either, she just seems to be following whatever feminist ideals are current (now she wears pants, cuz women wear pants). She stands (from what I've heard) for something that is in constant motion, so I would think it's hard to solidify her character in any way.
I think it's a problem with bad writing. The bad issues I've read had nothing to do with trying to reflect on current feminism. Hell, the DC fighting game was better written and it had a really stupid speech where Diana chastises a fellow Amazonian about their roles alongside men. And I don't remember her being portrayed as overly feminist in the DCAU, but she worked there. It's just...Bad writing. Superman suffers this frequently, too, but I think he gets away with it a little more because he's still narrow of purpose.

If they want to do her justice, I'd not write her as a feminist icon. Write her as a compelling character, and she's a feminist icon by default. She'll never attract every feminist, but she will be meaningful to a good chunk of them by virtue of being well-written and interesting.

And she'll be way better than Batman or Superman.
 

Eddie the head

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mecegirl said:
And this just popped up on my tumblr dash.




The way I see it is that DC missed an opportunity. Both Captain America and Thor did not bomb and WW is a mix of both concepts. Now we are getting a Guardians of the Galaxy movie...and no one even knows who they are.
Ok that was funny.

More on topic this all touches on a subject that I don't know enough about to care so I'm not going to comment. That said I wouldn't want to see a Wonder Woman movie in the Man of Steel universe, but I don't want to see any movie in that universe.
 

JimB

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I still maintain that the relative marketing strength of Batman and Superman comes from their relative simplicity in terms of marketing and relation to people in general. Wonder Woman isn't so easy and you have demonstrated as such yourself in trying to summarize her.
I feel that's kind of like saying it's easier to buy an ice cream cone than to scoop one yourself, and that the burden for being incapable of the latter really falls on the dude too incompetent to work a spoon into a bucket of Breyer's rather than the vanilla swirl itself.
 

NightmareWarden

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I think that one of the central pillars to a wonder woman movie should be to establish a genuinely good Wonder Woman even if it goes against the comics. Without any direct knowledge of Wonder Woman from the comics, my suggestion should be taken with quite a few grains of salt. Instead of opening the can of worms that the "angry feminist superhero" would cause in a movie, let's consider a different angle. Here is an example of the kind of angle I would recommend for a Wonder Woman movie:
As the princess of Themyscira, Diana was selected by her mother to be the an ambassador of Themyscira. She reveals, along with irrefutable proof, of "her world" of gods and magic to the DC version of the United Nations. I'm sure how well our "stable" world would react to this revelation: complete chaos and loads of violence. It turns out that some of the higher ups of the underworld were extremely peeved that they would be unable to manipulate humans from the shadows any longer. So in retaliation they taught many less-stable humans destructive magics and demon summoning rituals in order to compound the chaos. This action was a violation of a peace treaty between the Gods and the Underworld and Diana steps up to dole out punishment. She goes to the gate of the underworld to seal it and sever the connection to the human world.

As JimB pointed out the defining characteristic Wonder Woman should represent is Truth. Any human villains would be described as refusing to recognize the truth and hiding behind delusions. Superman (not necessarily the most recent movie superman, but generally) is intended to set an example for others and give hope for the future. Batman helps us remember and learn from the past for when it comes back to haunt us. Wonder Woman should be able to help us recognize the truth and always stand by it in spite of any risk. Own up to problems instead of sweeping them under the rug, activism vs complacency, etc.
At the very least, we have a good idea of what NOT to do: http://blip.tv/radio-dead-air/wonder-woman-2011-a-review-5888251
I apologize for the commentary if it isn't to your liking, but it is pretty informative.
 

Something Amyss

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JimB said:
I feel that's kind of like saying it's easier to buy an ice cream cone than to scoop one yourself, and that the burden for being incapable of the latter really falls on the dude too incompetent to work a spoon into a bucket of Breyer's rather than the vanilla swirl itself.
When it comes to marketing a product, that's a pretty significant thing. You still haven't been able to succinctly summarise "who is Wonder Woman and why should I care?"
 

JimB

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Zachary Amaranth said:
You still haven't been able to succinctly summarize "who is Wonder Woman and why should I care?"
If twenty-three words that could be spoken aloud in three seconds isn't succinct enough, then I am still not convinced the problem is with the material. If you don't find the statement itself interesting, that's fine, though I don't accept accountability for your personal taste.
 

Something Amyss

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JimB said:
If twenty-three words that could be spoken aloud in three seconds isn't succinct enough, then I am still not convinced the problem is with the material.
Yes, and ask Microsoft how well the "The product is fine, it's the consumer that's broken" attitude worked with the Xbone.
 

softclocks

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Am I the only one who feels that she doesn't need a movie of her own?

I love Wonder Woman, I just don't find her background all that appealing. I enjoy her in the JLA dynamic. If she's on her own I only like it because she's already sort of "established" now. Couldn't imagine sitting through 2-3 hours of terrible backstory. Especially not the way anything even remotely "over the top" is handled. They practically cut the balls off Thor.

JimB said:
If you want to say DC is currently incapable of doing the character justice, then that's fine. I totally agree. Just about everything I've read or seen her in since Morrison's run on JLA has been a complete fucking abortion. I just think it's unfair and untrue to say the problem is with the character being too complex or not having a hook or whatever else that would be the fault of the material rather than the apologists in charge of DC right now.
.
What? That stuff Simone did with Ares was okay.

Not like the reboot was all that bad either, even if I'm not a huge fan.
 

JimB

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Yes, and ask Microsoft how well the "The product is fine, it's the consumer that's broken" attitude worked with the Xbone.
It is entirely possible I am in a minority. I am fine with that if it's the case. That's really neither here nor there, though, since I am not DC's marketing department and you are not the general public. We are two people disagreeing, no more.

softclocks said:
What? That stuff Simone did with Ares was okay.
The only thing of Simone's run I ever read was apparently the beginning of a new story arc. I don't know exactly what happened, but Wonder Woman lassoed Satan and that put her in a coma while hallucinated she was in an inn with Beowulf, fighting off drunks. I wasn't willing to give the story a chance after that. It did nothing to grip me, and I had better things to do with my four dollars per month.
 

Something Amyss

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JimB said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Yes, and ask Microsoft how well the "The product is fine, it's the consumer that's broken" attitude worked with the Xbone.
It is entirely possible I am in a minority. I am fine with that if it's the case. That's really neither here nor there, though, since I am not DC's marketing department and you are not the general public. We are two people disagreeing, no more.
That doesn't really change anything. The fact is, they haven't been able to market Wonder Woman either. You were insisting it was a simple concept and couldn't simplify it enough to be effective. Insisting that other people are wrong because of that (or accusing them of bad taste) is still at issue, even if you don't work for DC.

If you can't prove it to me (someone who would like to see a WW movie), what hope do you think there is for those people you just accused of poor taste?
 

softclocks

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JimB said:
softclocks said:
What? That stuff Simone did with Ares was okay.
The only thing of Simone's run I ever read was apparently the beginning of a new story arc. I don't know exactly what happened, but Wonder Woman lassoed Satan and that put her in a coma while hallucinated she was in an inn with Beowulf, fighting off drunks. I wasn't willing to give the story a chance after that. It did nothing to grip me, and I had better things to do with my four dollars per month.
Your money was probably better spent on other comics...or food :)

Still, the new stuff isn't terrible.

She also had some good stuff, like the run-in with Zoom.
 

JimB

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Zachary Amaranth said:
The fact is, they haven't been able to market Wonder Woman either.
I'm not aware of a serious effort to ever do so. I mean, there was that Christ-awful TV pilot that never even aired (and rightly so, have you seen that ************?) that, if the rumors are to be believed, was altered almost endlessly by executive meddling to try to make the show and the character be something it's not; specifically, Ally McBeal.

By comparison, how much did Marvel market Iron Man as a character and a property before making a movie of him? How many more people in the world knew his name than knew Wonder Woman's? I'd guess fewer did, yet the movie succeeded because Marvel was willing to stand back and let an okay screenwriter, an okay director, and an okay actor (none of them better than okay) put a ninety-minute love letter to Tony Stark on the screen and trust that the enthusiasm would be infectious. And it was.

Zachary Amaranth said:
If you can't prove it to me (someone who would like to see a Wonder Woman movie), what hope do you think there is for those people you just accused of poor taste?
There was never any hope you would agree with me. That has nothing to do with you, though, but rather an immutable law of reality that if someone disagrees with you on the internet, then he will always disagree with you and nothing will ever change that. They could make a successful Wonder Woman movie tomorrow that outgrosses the Avengers and you still wouldn't agree with me; DC could sell the rights to Wonder Woman to Larry Flynt tomorrow and I still wouldn't agree with you. It's just the way it works.

As for that audience, I'm not so much accusing them of bad taste as I am intellectual dishonesty. I can't think of any other translation to film where the ability to reduce a character to three words is a good thing, and to my anecdotal experience, the more you can reduce characters thus, the less people enjoy those characters. I mean, who enjoyed any of the characters in the Star Wars prequels? Who went into Thor expecting to dislike it but came out pleasantly surprised the characters were nuanced? Who, if it was marketed in three words, would want to see a character who could accurately be described as "Hercules with tits?"*

Maybe I'm just not cut out for marketing, and maybe the complexity that excites my interest is antithetical to the brevity marketing requires. I don't care, though. It is one hundred percent possible to do the character justice in a feature movie. It just hasn't been done because DC is ashamed to be a comics company.

softclocks said:
Still, the new stuff isn't terrible.
I gave up on the new stuff after a year and a half. Even setting aside the "the Amazons are rapists and murderers for no reason other than to be shocking and dark and oh-so 'mature'" stuff, Wonder Woman got significantly less screen time than did all the supporting cast of Greek gods, not to mention less development; by the time I quit reading, it had never been explained why she cared to fight the entire pantheon to protect one baby, leaving me to assume she was doing it because there wouldn't have been a plot otherwise. I really do think Brian Azarello didn't have any idea what to do with Wonder Woman and was only using the book as an excuse to write about what Hermes would be like in the twenty-first century.

*I admit that tacking "with tits" on there isn't entirely fair, and is a subtle accusation of sexism that isn't very helpful even to the imaginary conversation DC is having with its audience. I think it is unavoidable that DC would attempt to apologize for her sex, though. Christ, Man of Steel was two hours of apologizing for Superman not being Batman.
 

Something Amyss

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JimB said:
I'm not aware of a serious effort to ever do so. I mean, there was that Christ-awful TV pilot that never even aired (and rightly so, have you seen that ************?) that, if the rumors are to be believed, was altered almost endlessly by executive meddling to try to make the show and the character be something it's not; specifically, Ally McBeal.
And no true scotsman puts sugar in his porridge. I mean, honestly. If they didn't do a good job there, what makes you think they'll do a "serious" job elsewhere? And don't blame me for bringing up the issue of quality again. You brought it up again/
By comparison, how much did Marvel market Iron Man as a character and a property before making a movie of him?
Do we include the multiple animated shows he was in? If so, do we count Wonder Woman's appearances? Only the ones they star in?

How many more people in the world knew his name than knew Wonder Woman's? I'd guess fewer did, yet the movie succeeded because Marvel was willing to stand back and let an okay screenwriter, an okay director, and an okay actor (none of them better than okay) put a ninety-minute love letter to Tony Stark on the screen and trust that the enthusiasm would be infectious. And it was.
I'd argue that Downey is what sold it. He even sold that second movie where nothing happens. That's the thing, though. You can't argue that way. Marvel has put immense efforts into their film brand and DC hasn't. Saying "well, if only...." is nice, but if wishes were horses, I'd be up to my eyeballs in ponies. At the same time, Iron Man is a really simple concept. He's a douchier Bruce Wayne. But you've drifted back to the point you dismissed earlier. Marvel is willing to take B and C-Listers and stand behind them. Iron Man, Thor, Guardians of the Galaxy. DC won't. So it's kind of pointless to argue that a good movie could come of it if only they made a good movie.

The reality is, they won't. But again, I think that's neither here nor there to the point at hand:

The successful heroes are all more easily marketed than Wonder Woman.

Zachary Amaranth said:
If you can't prove it to me (someone who would like to see a Wonder Woman movie), what hope do you think there is for those people you just accused of poor taste?
There was never any hope you would agree with me.
Oh, wait, you were talking about me? Despite the fact that I've spoken to the contrary in terms of what I want? So not only did you insult me, but you didn't have the courtesy to insult me on actual grounds. No wonder you don't expect me to agree with you.

That has nothing to do with you, though, but rather an immutable law of reality that if someone disagrees with you on the internet, then he will always disagree with you and nothing will ever change that. They could make a successful Wonder Woman movie tomorrow that outgrosses the Avengers and you still wouldn't agree with me; DC could sell the rights to Wonder Woman to Larry Flynt tomorrow and I still wouldn't agree with you. It's just the way it works.
Would a successful Wonder Woman tomorrow mean she was easy to market? I don't follow your reasoning here.

But more realistically, you're free to believe people don't change their opinions on the internet. I disagree. Then again, I used to be a pro-life Catholic in favour od the death penalty and now I'm a baby-eating[footnote]facetiously, of course[/footnote] atheist with many more reservations. Or maybe you only mean on comic books. Well, I can't think of the last person who changed my mind there, so maybe you have a point.

But then, all it would take to convince me that they could make a good Wonder Woman movie was for a good Wonder Woman movie to be made, so that can't be it. I mean, I'm operating on a level of skepticism based on a series of poorly performing and poorly made movies. and the former is only an issue because I believe they will continue to not bother as long as they don't think they will make money off of it. A self-fulflling prrophecy, if you will.

In any event, the criteria to change my mind will vary based on the point in question. I don't know. Maybe your mind is completely unchangeable, but mine is not. I accept all things tentatively and contingent upon the evidence I have available.

But speaking of a self-fulfilling prophecy, a good way to make sure I don't change my mind is to go from referring to hypothetical people in terms of their plebian tastes to me specifically.

I can't think of any other translation to film where the ability to reduce a character to three words is a good thing, and to my anecdotal experience, the more you can reduce characters thus, the less people enjoy those characters.
Tony and Bruce can be immensely complex. Weren't you the one who mentioned character studies on Batman? Just because you can summarise them on a stamp doesn't mean they can't be deep. Similarly, just because you can't pare something down to bullet points doesn't mean the complexity is worth anything.

However, it's not intellectual dishonesty. It's just human nature. We like simple, snappy, and preferably binary. Ask Al Gore how the "invented the internet" thing went for him.

I mean, who enjoyed any of the characters in the Star Wars prequels?
You mean the ones who were bogged down by politics and shoehorned nuance? Where they tried to make the Dark Sider all "complicated?"

I don't see how this helps your point. Lucas took a very simple concept of cowboys and samurai and tried to make it more complicated and tried to make the characters more complicated and that's part of what made them suck. And as whiny and annoying as Luke Skywalker can be, he ended up coming off as deeper than Anakin for all the efforts. Granted, this is a sub-optimal example, since we're comparing the depth of puddles, but still.

I mean, who went into Star Wars thinking "God, I hope they capture the nuanced dynamics of the Galactic Senate?" Hell, did people go into the Nolan Batman films thinking "Oh goody, I can't wait to see a love letter to the Bush Administration?"

Summary doesn't dictate the entirety of the story.

Who went into Thor expecting to dislike it but came out pleasantly surprised the characters were nuanced?
Who cares? I feel like you're drifting off into irrelevance here.

Who, if it was marketed in three words, would want to see a character who could accurately be described as "Hercules with tits?"*
Yeah, if that's the best you can come up with, either the character probably isn't worth it or you're not the person to be pitching it. But then, you're probably also not the person to be arguing that it can be marketed. Even Xena managed to tag the character with "warrior princess." Though I wouldn't try that with Wonder Woman, because it's already been done.

Maybe "Like Xena, but...." to borrow from Zero Punctuation.
 

DANEgerous

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To be honest my thoughts on a Wonder Woman movie are as fallows "Why the fuck has no one made Wonder Woman movie? Josh Wheaton! GET ON THIS SHIT NOW! Also why are books that have a female protagonist "Books for girls". No! Sorry not sorry that is stupid, like real stupid also sexist because why the fuck can a woman not be a hero? "The Hunger Games" ARE NOT BOOKS FOR GIRLS! THEY ARE JUST GOOD BOOKS! The Fault in our Stars? SAME IDEA! STOP SAYING THEY ARE FOR GIRLS! Stop Stop Stop! It is stupid, it is dumb and worst of all it undermines women, you may think it champions them but in most cases thou art wrong.
 

JimB

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Zachary Amaranth said:
And no true Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge.
I'm not sure how that applies here. I mean, it's been pretty explicitly stated that the producers wanted Wonder Woman the character to be Ally McBeal the character, and Wonder Woman the series to be Ally McBeal the series.

Zachary Amaranth said:
If they didn't do a good job there, what makes you think they'll do a "serious" job elsewhere?
I don't. I'm pretty sure I've explicitly said I do not trust DC to do the character justice. I have not been talking about what they will do, but rather what can be done.

Zachary Amaranth said:
By comparison, how much did Marvel market Iron Man as a character and a property before making a movie of him?
Do we include the multiple animated shows he was in?
Do you think those things count?

Zachary Amaranth said:
Oh, wait, you were talking about me?
Uh...maybe. When and what are you referring to?

Zachary Amaranth said:
Would a successful Wonder Woman tomorrow mean she was easy to market?
The premise, as I understand it from you, is that only easy to market heroes get successful movies. Have I misunderstood you, and if so, how?

Zachary Amaranth said:
But more realistically, you're free to believe people don't change their opinions on the internet. I disagree.
It does happen. It's happened to me more than a few times. I think those are statistical outliers, though, and I don't put any stock in them ever happening. I mean, I'll buy a lottery ticket if the pot is big enough, but I won't expect to win.

Zachary Amaranth said:
Weren't you the one who mentioned character studies on Batman?
My memory is spotty sometimes, but to the best of my recollection, no, I have not done that.

Zachary Amaranth said:
I mean, who enjoyed any of the characters in the Star Wars prequels?
You mean the ones who were bogged down by politics and shoehorned nuance? Where they tried to make the Dark Sider all "complicated?"
Politics is the realm of plot, not character. The characters had extremely few personality traits on display, making them extremely non-complex and easy to summarize. Obi-Wan = teacher, Anakin = broody rebel, Padme = chick.

Zachary Amaranth said:
Who went into Thor expecting to dislike it but came out pleasantly surprised the characters were nuanced?
Who cares?
Who cares what factor make a movie successful and how those factors can be applied to other franchises?

Never mind, then.
 

JimB

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DANEgerous said:
Josh Wheaton!
Er, it's "Joss Whedon." Honestly, though, I'm not sure he's the fellow I'd tap. His Girl Power! thing comes off a little, well, chest-thumpy to me. His brand of feminism seems to treat it like it's a contest in which whoever can dominate the other side is the better gender. Buffy's feminist because she can beat up men! The Black Widow is feminist because she can trick Loki! Yay girls! I'm not opposed to women defeating men at their own games or anything--Christ no--but his characters strike me as feminist the way most self-proclaimed feminists on the internet strike me as feminist: falsely, because for them feminism is just a backdrop against which to fight glorious battles in the name of a righteous cause.

A Wonder Woman written or directed by Joss Whedon would be okay. It would be fine. It would even be superficially cool, in the way a hot chick runs around in a swim suit outkungfuing the men and still looking hot while doing it is superficially cool as long as you don't think too hard about whether all those poses were choreographed to make her look hot. There would be at least two good jokes. I just think it would miss a lot of the point in favor of allowing Whedon to blow his Girl Power! trumpet, though.
 

bigfatcarp93

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Marter said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
I'm mostly shocked Wonder Woman's big screen debut will be as a secondary character in the sequel to a reboot of a mega franchise, starring Superman and Batman.
She was in The Lego Movie, although I could see why people wouldn't count that. (Many are listing it as her theatrical debut, though, so I figured I'd mention it.)
I feel I should point out that the Lego Movie is still a SERIOUS step in the right direction for Wondy, reminding audiences she's out there and making the character's existence known to a new generation of kids.