Being Single in Your 30s Isn’t Bad Luck, It’s a Global Phenomenon

[gorfias]

This isn't the same as abortion. Not having one child doesn't mean one thinks procreation is bad. It just means that at the time other things are more important. I certainly am a natalist myself (should be evident from my comments in this thread) and I'm pro-choice too. There is nothing paradoxical about it. The way you frame it makes it sound like the only natalists are the ones who only have unprotected sex and no abortions. If we look at procreation there is no meaningful difference between contraception, abortion, or what the hell -- celibacy. Maybe you look at contraception and abortion on their own and see a difference there -- alright, makes sense -- but there isn't one from a natalist/anti-natalist perspective.

Y'know, I did say "if". It doesn't take much of a revelation to figure out that the culture that enables one's egoism won't stay that way if they just indulge in it. In general people lack the will to try to actually change their attitudes, and the ones who claim to have it are usually populist dumbasses ready to do more harm than good.

A natalist can get an abortion, but the joy and celebration exhibited in NY was something else. Abortion should be safe, legal and rare. But those people were joyous over something that should be somber. That was not good. And should they be told that their abortion now may cost them parenthood later? If a woman was told, for the sake of argument, that she can have her abortion, but this pregnancy would be her last chance to have a baby, would that impact her choice? If she is in her early 30s, would she even believe it? I've read from feminists that the idea that there is a closing window in which to have a baby is a myth. That is crazy talk.

 

[McElroy]

A natalist can get an abortion, but the joy and celebration exhibited in NY was something else. Abortion should be safe, legal and rare. But those people were joyous over something that should be somber. That was not good.

I don't agree that abortion has to be a somber event. In my opinion feminist celebration like they did in NYC tells us more about the feminists than anything else: they clearly have a need to show how progressive they are to the rest of us. Feminists aren't known for good taste so it's unsurprising.

And should they be told that their abortion now may cost them parenthood later? If a woman was told, for the sake of argument, that she can have her abortion, but this pregnancy would be her last chance to have a baby, would that impact her choice? If she is in her early 30s, would she even believe it? I've read from feminists that the idea that there is a closing window in which to have a baby is a myth. That is crazy talk.

We both agree that the cultural shift away from being a young parent to enjoying a young & wild 20s to the fullest has made women's reproductive health a necessary topic. And it does relate to men too in the way that we have to be more open about our plans for a family. The unfortunate ticking clock stories women tell often have a stable relationship with a man... which ends after five years because the guy isn't ready to be a dad and needs another five years or something. Lack of a good partner is the no. 1 reason for not having kids after all.

 

[Agema]

I don't agree that abortion has to be a somber event. In my opinion feminist celebration like they did in NYC tells us more about the feminists than anything else: they clearly have a need to show how progressive they are to the rest of us. Feminists aren't known for good taste so it's unsurprising. We both agree that the cultural shift away from being a young parent to enjoying a young & wild 20s to the fullest has made women's reproductive health a necessary topic. And it does relate to men too in the way that we have to be more open about our plans for a family. The unfortunate ticking clock stories women tell often have a stable relationship with a man... which ends after five years because the guy isn't ready to be a dad and needs another five years or something. Lack of a good partner is the no. 1 reason for not having kids after all.

Plenty of people from my mother's generation (including my mother) seem to say that if they could go back and do it again, they'd have waited longer before having children. Maybe not necessarily to their 30s, but certainly later than the early 20s that they did. I think there is a feeling that they missed out on a lot of experiences that they could have had, where waiting another 5-10 years would have cost them nothing reproductively.

 

[McElroy]

Plenty of people from my mother's generation (including my mother) seem to say that if they could go back and do it again, they'd have waited longer before having children. Maybe not necessarily to their 30s, but certainly later than the early 20s that they did. I think there is a feeling that they missed out on a lot of experiences that they could have had, where waiting another 5-10 years would have cost them nothing reproductively.

We can probably come up with an optimal window where the parents are in a good situation economically, reproductively, relationship is stable, grandparents are still available etc. but it would easily become too narrow to be achievable or too wide to be of any importance. The situation you describe ending up badly is what the "cautionary" ticking clock stories are about. Something like: "Okay here is the deal I want to enjoy life while I'm still young so children are on the table maybe 5 years from now." And the man says "ok, babe". Five years later: "Honey, I've had five years to think about it and I'm not yet ready to be a father."

It seems to me -- as we talked in the v1 thread not long ago -- that the inequality between sexes as young adults is linked to the issue somehow. The optimal dynamic between partners isn't the same between sexes either which was a disillusioning surprise to me, because it wasn't something I believed in.

About what experiences one truly misses extensive traveling seems to be the only definitive one. I guess it's enough to push the average age for young parents a few years further...

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I firmly believe in leaving the child rearing to the people who WANT to do it. I really blame a lot of the negative attitudes towards having kids in NA on the fact that a lot of people that age were brought up by parents who had kids because they screwed up, or they felt obligated, or some other factor that created a little bit of resentment towards their own offspring. The current 30 year olds generation of parents was a transition point where traditions were starting to be broken, but the new age was conflicting with the past age and it caused tension. If you grew up in a household where mom gave up her career to have kids and she regrets it, or you were one of six kids in a family that only kept going out of religious obligation while you saw other families with one or two kids that had so much more, or you had business parents who weren't interested in their own children - then your attitude towards having kids is going to be much different than past generations.

I don't think saying "man we need to make more kids, everybody do their part and keep this party going" is a great attitude. Its just going to create more situations where parents view their own kids as an unwanted burden and create the cycle anew. If the next generation needs to be bolstered by immigrants from countries where people actually want to have kids, then that's fine - as long as they are having kids out of an actual desire to do so then over time we'll break a potential cycle of negativity and have a healthier/happier society.

Add in the keyword “responsibly”. Which if that’s not the case, will create another set of burdens on a society.

Anyways to tie into that, for what it’s worth there also seems to be no shortage of evidence suggesting overpopulation - or at the very least, population mismanagement - is a thing to at least start being concerned about.

Spoiler: The main issue is, few people in power care to admit it, let alone talk about it

http://css.umich.edu/factsheets/us-environmental-footprint-factsheet

https://www.lifeadvancer.com/effects-of-overpopulation

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018...h-warns-planet-cant-cope-with-overpopulation/

https://www.fairus.org/issue/population-environment/united-states-already-overpopulated

http://www.economicsdiscussion.net/...negative-effects-of-population-explosion/4461

https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/guid/782907B2-333C-11E3-841C-00212803FAD6

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...-than-public-about-worlds-growing-population/

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/07/11/world/world-population-day-trnd/index.html


Some essays for more intense reading -
http://belmont.bme.umich.edu/wp-con...tive-Ethics-in-the-Face-of-Overpopulation.pdf

http://belmont.bme.umich.edu/wp-con...Population-Growth-in-the-Developing-World.pdf

http://belmont.bme.umich.edu/wp-con...al-Disaster-The-Need-for-Global-Bioethics.pdf

http://belmont.bme.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/377/2019/06/4.-Threats-and-burdens-Challenging-scarcity-driven-narratives-of-“overpopulation”.pdf