Well I'm glad I'm not the inly one who played Second Sight. Although the respawning enemies were a bit annoying.
Betrayal
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
If I was a developer, I wouldn't know what to do. Half the people want you to include a serious and worthwhile narrative worthy of a Hollywood Movie (or a prime time crime drama) but complain when you are too good at replicating the cliches.
I don't even care myself. If I want to watch a good narrative I'll check the library or maybe netflix. When it comes to the game's story, it's more of accent rather than a feature. The problem is that when they try to make the narrative a main feature of the game (like with Heavy Rain or gta4) it usually ends up just being really pretentious and the gameplay is usually not as much fun for some reason.
It's like with Just Cause 2. It's got what I look for in a game so I don't care about the drawbacks including the really stupid script with the really bad voice overs. I hardly pay attention to that. The things that I have paid attention to (scale, value, controls, variety, and immersion) work nicely so the story can be about emo vampires in love for all I care.
I don't even care myself. If I want to watch a good narrative I'll check the library or maybe netflix. When it comes to the game's story, it's more of accent rather than a feature. The problem is that when they try to make the narrative a main feature of the game (like with Heavy Rain or gta4) it usually ends up just being really pretentious and the gameplay is usually not as much fun for some reason.
It's like with Just Cause 2. It's got what I look for in a game so I don't care about the drawbacks including the really stupid script with the really bad voice overs. I hardly pay attention to that. The things that I have paid attention to (scale, value, controls, variety, and immersion) work nicely so the story can be about emo vampires in love for all I care.
I remember second sight, I never beat it but I enjoyed it for a while. I think my brother sold it was the problem as he tends to sell games really fast.
Now Mr. Yahtzee I know you are gonna betray us, it's in your script and you will reveal yourself as a halo loving fan boy who gets excited over people getting kills without the scope. Despite the fact there is a cross-air telling you where the bullet will hit. It will be the twistiest of twists!
We will then burn you at the stake for lying to us all this time..
Now Mr. Yahtzee I know you are gonna betray us, it's in your script and you will reveal yourself as a halo loving fan boy who gets excited over people getting kills without the scope. Despite the fact there is a cross-air telling you where the bullet will hit. It will be the twistiest of twists!
We will then burn you at the stake for lying to us all this time..
I agree that Betrayal tends to be spammed.
The thing that annoys me most is the fact that removes practically all of your free will, by which I mean them manipulating you in some cases.
It basically means that everything you did wasn't you or even the character choosing to do things.
It doesn't ruin the game for me, but it just seems to make the entire journey feel pointless.
The thing that annoys me most is the fact that removes practically all of your free will, by which I mean them manipulating you in some cases.
It basically means that everything you did wasn't you or even the character choosing to do things.
It doesn't ruin the game for me, but it just seems to make the entire journey feel pointless.
This is true...it seemd the betrayal dynamic is too ell engrained that people are just too used to using it...meaning we arer too used to seeing it also...
I know I was like "Oh, I know what he is gonna do" in BC2...and, I was right.
PoP example was great though, I did like that, because it is so true
I know I was like "Oh, I know what he is gonna do" in BC2...and, I was right.
PoP example was great though, I did like that, because it is so true
As betrayals go, though, Bioshock had the best. It just worked and I don't think anything else would've worked in its place (but if you'd like to prove me wrong by writing something that might have worked, by all means be my guest and enlighten me.)
I have to agree that the whole "Betrayal" plot twist is overdone largely because it's everywhere and frequently done badly. Though admittedly it does lead to the occasional moment where you expect an NPC set up with the right dialogue and cut scenes and such to betray you and they don't (SMT: Strange Journey is like this).
That said I believe the problem is a combination of there only being so many stories that can be told overall, and only a few of them work within the context of video games, and also the fact that the game industry likes to "play things safe" and this has simply become one more part of the formula writing and creation that plagues the industry.
Typically the problem with betrayals in games to me is that in many cases they are too heavily telegraphed, and in many cases make little or no sense. Especially given that your character typically sits there ignoring all evidence to the contrary in many cases with a giant "please betray me" sign on his chest. But then again in many cases I suppose this is bad writing more than a problem with the idea itself.
Oddly the most original take on the idea (to me) was actually "Chrono Cross" where you have visions of your character/protaganist betraying one of your comrades and killing them with an evil grin on their face. This becomes a plot point later on in the game leading up to this body-switching thing that was kind of interesting, as well as some interesting choices (including one major story branch) as your character tries to prevent this from happening.
That said I believe the problem is a combination of there only being so many stories that can be told overall, and only a few of them work within the context of video games, and also the fact that the game industry likes to "play things safe" and this has simply become one more part of the formula writing and creation that plagues the industry.
Typically the problem with betrayals in games to me is that in many cases they are too heavily telegraphed, and in many cases make little or no sense. Especially given that your character typically sits there ignoring all evidence to the contrary in many cases with a giant "please betray me" sign on his chest. But then again in many cases I suppose this is bad writing more than a problem with the idea itself.
Oddly the most original take on the idea (to me) was actually "Chrono Cross" where you have visions of your character/protaganist betraying one of your comrades and killing them with an evil grin on their face. This becomes a plot point later on in the game leading up to this body-switching thing that was kind of interesting, as well as some interesting choices (including one major story branch) as your character tries to prevent this from happening.
WOW! I had to go to Wikipedia and read the Bad Company 2 plot to REMEMBER the betrayal part... and it's been less than a month since I finished the game. To me, BF:BC2 single player campaign was just a way to get used to the aiming, movement and physics of the game, as well as try out some of the weapons before heading on to the MP. I usually enjoy and remember stories, no matter how bland they are, but for some reason, I just completely forgot most parts that had to do with BC2's story.
Also, thanks for the spoiler warnings. They really helped as I've never played Second Sight (I intend to now that you have brought it to my attention). I really hate when articles and reviews just give a general "SPOILER WARNING". Some articles don't even bother telling you what it is they're going to spoil (as in, what game or film), as if the world is populated by only 2 kinds of people: Those who like spoilers and those who don't. The warning just makes you skip the whole article from general spoiler fear, even if the only spoilers are things you already know.
Also, thanks for the spoiler warnings. They really helped as I've never played Second Sight (I intend to now that you have brought it to my attention). I really hate when articles and reviews just give a general "SPOILER WARNING". Some articles don't even bother telling you what it is they're going to spoil (as in, what game or film), as if the world is populated by only 2 kinds of people: Those who like spoilers and those who don't. The warning just makes you skip the whole article from general spoiler fear, even if the only spoilers are things you already know.
No mention of Bioshock? That was the first game that came to mind when Yahtzee mentioned NPC betrayals.
No betrayal here per se, but I loved how the villain in the end was indeed a member of your party; namely YOU!
I don't think Modern Warfare 2's plot was THAT evident. Sure you could sense a betrayal in a war story since, hey, war is all about betrayal. But the road to the actual turnover was both interesting and compelling, making it a unique and durable experience.
I've completed the single player campaign twice now and I am convinced that the ending was one of the best convergence of story + movie + game elements in a video game.
Oh and I am 100 % with Yahtzee on his claim that a game should definitely be judged on it's single player campaign (only).
I've completed the single player campaign twice now and I am convinced that the ending was one of the best convergence of story + movie + game elements in a video game.
Oh and I am 100 % with Yahtzee on his claim that a game should definitely be judged on it's single player campaign (only).
The purpose of bad company was to add a single player experience to the series. This is shown by the fact for the first game they relied on the characters from single player to promote the game. The multiplayer barely got a mention. Just watch the original's launch trailer.Dexter111 said:
On the topic of betrayal, in MW2:
I thought the betrayal was quite good because you didn't realise it until you had been shot and were dying. No chance for those characters to get their revenge; just left in a ditch and on fire.
Also I'm sure in a previous vid you mentioned that true villains build their power in the background without anyone noticing, therefore having to manipulate people. There wouldn't be much a game or entertainment industry if there were no betrayals.
Was brilliant just to see some Second Sight loving!
OT - It seems to be the easy route for writers to go down. I suppose it also drags a game out, you make loads of progress for the "bad" guys who betray you, then you go across to the weaker rivals and have to build back up, again.
It reminds me of the irritaing tendancy of a lot of games to make you do a tutorial as awesome fully upgraded powerfull dude), or version of the main character, and then something happens that means you are then weak back to basics person.
OT - It seems to be the easy route for writers to go down. I suppose it also drags a game out, you make loads of progress for the "bad" guys who betray you, then you go across to the weaker rivals and have to build back up, again.
It reminds me of the irritaing tendancy of a lot of games to make you do a tutorial as awesome fully upgraded powerfull dude), or version of the main character, and then something happens that means you are then weak back to basics person.
Mirror's Edge didn't have the kind of betrayal mentioned.
Yeah, you were betrayed, but the betrayer hadn't been manipulating you beyond a few minor attempts to keep you out of the way, which the main character ignored anyway.
Also, Second Sight was awesome, especially the ending.
Yeah, you were betrayed, but the betrayer hadn't been manipulating you beyond a few minor attempts to keep you out of the way, which the main character ignored anyway.
Also, Second Sight was awesome, especially the ending.
I always love these columns.
I think the last games I played with a betrayal that didn't bother me were the Super Robot Taisen: Original Generations games on the GBA (later remade as one game on the PS2), because they had lots of betrayals (especially the second one), people who betrayed someone obviously once tended to betray other people unexpectedly later, and all the betrayals were very well explained and made sense. I do agree, however, that it's gotten to being a really predictable and poorly executed plot twist in a lot of things and crops up far too often.
I think the last games I played with a betrayal that didn't bother me were the Super Robot Taisen: Original Generations games on the GBA (later remade as one game on the PS2), because they had lots of betrayals (especially the second one), people who betrayed someone obviously once tended to betray other people unexpectedly later, and all the betrayals were very well explained and made sense. I do agree, however, that it's gotten to being a really predictable and poorly executed plot twist in a lot of things and crops up far too often.
And that's why you're constantly wrong when it comes to this point.Yahtzee Croshaw said:
"But I can't be wrong about an opinion". Tell that to Josef Mengele and the likes... On a serious note, yes, even opinions can be wrong (go figure eh?). If it's my opinion that water is dry, then it's demonstrably wrong isn't it?
Same goes for BC2, and multiplayer games in general. You can't say a game HAS to stand on single player alone regardless simply because some games are not meant be single player focused... That's like saying a car is only a good car if it does both a great time on a race track, and a killer time on an off road course... Jeeps and F1s are kind of fucked there aren't they? You get some games for the single player, and you get some games for the multiplayer. I know you tend to resent multiplayer games on account of living in Australia, and consequently getting teabagged by the world connection-wise, and that you seem to have a hard time socializing, but as a critic you should be more objective.
The Battlefield series has always been about the multiplayer. Hell, for the most part, they don't even HAVE a single player campaign... Bad Company 1 was their first attempt at a single player campaign. BC2 was their attempt at a REAL single player campaign. I realize you don't believe it, but for a professional games critic you really should be able to tell the signs: Half the multiplayer weapons missing from the single player; Single player weapons picked from the multiplayer pile (not the other way around) with no apparent logic but "because they're cool"; short missions that feel rather rushed; short story; the entire marketing effort was almost exclusively to the multiplayer, from day 1, with the single player getting a "oh hey, bonus!" approach...
Yes, they were trying to do it right, but it definitely was not a priority. It doesn't mean they can't get anything right though. Can't fault them for, at least, amusing characterization.
Again, I think we all realize you don't like multiplayer games by now, the question remains: Why then do you keep reviewing them?
What is most annoying is when it is painfully obvious your going to be betrayed but you still have to play along with it because the game gives you no choices. But then again games are the last best hope for awful writers, if they don't make a stand here where else can they go?