Biden is trying to lower gas prices now. The problem with Climate Change pushers.

CriticalGaming

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So one of Biden's first things in office was the ban the massive Keystone pipeline, in an effort to get America off fossil fuels supposedly. This of course has made our gas prices insane, realtive to what our normal is. I know a lot of places in the world have higher gas prices than us even now, especially in places like Autrailia and New Zealand where $6+/gallon is normal.

Now Biden is releasing reserves we had in conjunction with Asian countries in an effort to try and correct the gas prices (but not reenstate the pipeline which I would have thought the obvious solution long term would be, but whatever).

There are several states that have also come forth to make laws that will ban the sale of gas-powered cars by 202X the actual year may vary.

And hey they want to make better climate changes, cool. But the problem with pushing everyone towards electric is that it is a knee jerk short term reactionary plan that isn't even capable of being implimented. For quite a few reasons.

1. They have done no work on making electric vechiles viable for long term use or travel. Meaning that road trips in your electric car is near impossible because there aren't enough (if any) road stops, hotels, charging stations, available to make sure you can plug your Tesla or whatever in over night, or just while you shop to make sure you don't run out of juice.

2. People's electric bills are already extremely high (it costs almost $500/month for me to run my AC during the summer and im not even home much). You are demanding people take on that with no promise of lowered rates or insentives. But this one maybe we can ignore if we replace the cost of gas with the electricity cost. Fine.

3. What about jet fuel and all the vechicles incapable of running electric yet. Big rigs, the maintenence on aircrafts, tow trucks, emergency vechicles. Again this might just fall into my infrastructure complaint but it doesn't seem like any country anywhere is anywhere close to bailing on fossil fuels.

4. Why was nuclear power not even considered as an option? It's exceptionally clean, and exceptionally safe (except when it isn't but that can be said for anything).
I'm all for going "green" if we want to make better changes for the world. But regulations and changes need to be started on an infrastructural level, not the individual level. Look if you made it super easy and cheap for people to drive electric cars, they would do it in a heartbeat. There is a reason as to why only the wealthy are buying Tesla's and other pure electric cars and it's because of cost and the fact that these people often also have a gas powered car for situations beyond just a little cruise around town.

And now I hope the Biden Administration is realizing that they can't expect people to make such a drastic change without the groundwork being done by governments and businesses first. It's the big people that need to change first, not the small guy.
 

Gergar12

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Whenever you mention nuclear the green hippies complain, and whenever you mention thorium nuclear power the elitists' nuclear engineers complain. Both of these groups are wrong but in different ways. Also, The Green Party and a large portion of the left's position on fusion nuclear power make them deeply unserious, and downright clowns. Jill Stein whom I met a deputy of hers is a clown.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Couple other things to take about this as well.


This video highlighted something i didn't originally consider. Even if you could have a network of charging stations across the nation, charging your car doesn't work like filling a gas tank. It takes hours to charge a car and a fully charged car might get 200-300 miles. If you average 60mph then you are stopping every 4 hours to charge for what 1-3 hours? And what if you pull into a charging parking lot that's full? Then you have to wait potentially hours for someone to leave, plus the time it takes to charge your own car. Which is assuming that a "charging station" is more than one charger in a given spot.

 
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crimson5pheonix

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So one of Biden's first things in office was the ban the massive Keystone pipeline, in an effort to get America off fossil fuels supposedly.
This has been grating on my nerves every time it's come up in the right wing complain-o-sphere. The part of the keystone pipeline that was cancelled carried no oil, so it has no effect on gas prices. You might have seen a ripple in gas futures at the time of his decision, a little bit, but this ain't it chief. There are other problems with it that the right wing complain-o-sphere ignore, but since you didn't bring them up I won't either.

On to the complaint of rising gas prices, they've just normalized. They've been artificially deflated for at least 6 to 8 years because of OPEC. They've been overproducing oil to try and keep the prices deflated enough to scare the US and Russia out of production so they can protect their market share with mixed success, but the pandemic finally broke them. During the pandemic you might have remembered that barrels of oil were trading for negative $30, it was cheaper to pay people to take oil than to store it. If at any point you're complaining that gas was so cheap a year ago, you lose. Instead compare to before the pandemic when gas was ~.50 to $1 cheaper, depending, and then realize OPEC has slashed production. As it stands the US now produces more oil under Biden than it has any time previously, and Biden is approving public drilling at rate faster than either of the last 2 presidents and has been doing so all year. Domestic oil production is not the solution to this problem.
 

Dreiko

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Gas prices should be high, that's how you deal with climate change. Think of it like this, either you drive less or the ecosystem dies. Just don't drive as much.


Also people who are forced to drive for employment should not bear this cost so we should give them tax funded gas vouchers if they're poor enough.


Climate change is gonna happen and it's about damage mitigation now. All the crazy hurricanes and blizzards and fires are way worse than just not driving as much.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Gas prices should be high, that's how you deal with climate change. Think of it like this, either you drive less or the ecosystem dies. Just don't drive as much.


Also people who are forced to drive for employment should not bear this cost so we should give them tax funded gas vouchers if they're poor enough.


Climate change is gonna happen and it's about damage mitigation now. All the crazy hurricanes and blizzards and fires are way worse than just not driving as much.
Part of the issue is that a lot of American cities are literally designed around private ownership of cars. Like a lot of suburbs are kinda designed to be hostile to mass transit. There is no quick way away from americans needing gas.
 

Trunkage

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Just so we are all clear here.

Biden, even before his nonsense with the Gulf drilling rights bananza right after Cop21, has been handing out oil contracts like they are going out of fashion. He has far exceeded what Trump did, which makes him turning up to climate conference berating people and claiming moral authority absolutely galling

Blame oil prices on Biden if you want. He sure as shit isn't doing anything green here. But he will use people like you to get away with his poor policy/behavior. Thank God you fell for his trap again.
 

CriticalGaming

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Gas prices should be high, that's how you deal with climate change. Think of it like this, either you drive less or the ecosystem dies. Just don't drive as much.


Also people who are forced to drive for employment should not bear this cost so we should give them tax funded gas vouchers if they're poor enough.


Climate change is gonna happen and it's about damage mitigation now. All the crazy hurricanes and blizzards and fires are way worse than just not driving as much.
Basically what @Worgen said.

It isn't a matter of driving less. Because you simply can't do it. Cities are not equiped with a good enough public system, and rural areas are too spread thin to not drive. The volume is less simply because of population density.

Again it isn't a matter of the individual. A private person is not going to have fuck-all effect on climate change.

It needs to happen at a corporate and infrastructual level. The individual person should not have to bear the cost of this when they have no control over how the world is designed. Inflated energy bills just hurt the common person and do nothing for overall impact. It's strictly punishing people for corporate and governmental greed nothing more.

If these motherfuckers want to battle climate change, it falls on THEM to make the changes not the individual person, because the average Joe can only buy into what's available to make their life work.

The climate acitivist big ask of people, is impossible with our current technology and with our current baseline infrastructure systems. Basically they are asking people to buy houses that have no foundations, and a house built upon nothing will collapse.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Gas prices aren't significantly higher now than they were in 2019, people just have the collective memory of a goldfish.

There was a fairly significant global event running all of last year and continuing into this year that dramatically cut demand for gasoline. Which is going to severely depress prices, and then because supply was cut down to try and boost prices, extra demand due to people driving again is gonna jump the price. Not building a pipeline that A) wasn't transporting gasoline, and B) wasn't even going to be close to finished anyway has no bearing on gas prices and anybody arguing otherwise can be safely ignored. Maybe even mocked.

I cannot be the only person here who remembers that a massive drop in demand last year sent oil prices into the negative
 

TheMysteriousGX

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The climate acitivist big ask of people, is impossible with our current technology and with our current baseline infrastructure systems. Basically they are asking people to buy houses that have no foundations, and a house built upon nothing will collapse.
The solution to that is to build green infrastructure, not continuing to build our current "fuck the environment" infrastructure
 

CriticalGaming

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The solution to that is to build green infrastructure, not continuing to build our current "fuck the environment" infrastructure
I agree. That's what I'm saying.

My point isn't that we SHOULDN'T make progress toward green infrastructures. My point is that it is far too soon to FORCE everyday people to do it. Because that is what they are trying to demand of us. It's pushing the burden on people who can't help anything instead of pushing it on the entities that can.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Again it isn't a matter of the individual. A private person is not going to have fuck-all effect on climate change.
Really its much more complicated then that. For instance, if we wanted to go all electric with renewable energy we have a problem. The best places in the states for sun and wind happen to be the heartland, but the places needing that power are the coasts, the aging lines we have aren't up to it and getting people to allow new high power lines across their states is a nightmare. In the US you can't just have a federal body say "lines go here" you have to make agreements with the states and local communities, all the ones that the lines would need to go through. So a private person can kinda have an effect on climate change, it just depends where you live and its still several degrees removed.

 
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Meximagician

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Seems like a lot of your problems with electric vehicles would be solved with a battery exchange program. Why would the only model be to charge the same battery when you could swap it out for one that's already charged, then pay or get paid the difference? It's not 1936, even in the boonies of 'Murica we've got 240v* readily available.

Hell, there's money to be made in the idea, so we don't even need further government intervention. The only reason it hasn't happened yet is there is currently not enough electric vehicles on the roads to justify the initial investment. Regulate an increase in vehicle electrification and let the free market get off it's ass and do the rest.

*120v at a standard outlet, but 240v on large appliance (washer/dryer/oven/etc) outlets and in the grid itself.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Seems like a lot of your problems with electric vehicles would be solved with a battery exchange program. Why would the only model be to charge the same battery when you could swap it out for one that's already charged, then pay or get paid the difference? It's not 1936, even in the boonies of 'Murica we've got 240v* readily available.

Hell, there's money to be made in the idea, so we don't even need further government intervention. The only reason it hasn't happened yet is there is currently not enough electric vehicles on the roads to justify the initial investment. Regulate an increase in vehicle electrification and let the free market get off it's ass and do the rest.

*120v at a standard outlet, but 240v on large appliance (washer/dryer/oven/etc) outlets and in the grid itself.
Assuming that the battery exchange would be easy enough of the average person to do, which I find unlikely since most people don't even know how to check their own oil. Or you pay a preminum for somebody to swap batteries for you. So you'd pay for the new battery and installation, which I think defeats a lot of the potential cost of ownership. Plus remember you would need to have batteries at the ready within the mile range for the car.

On top of that, what happens to all these batteries once they can't be charged any further. Batteries go bad.
 
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Ravinoff

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Assuming that the battery exchange would be easy enough of the average person to do, which I find unlikely since most people don't even know how to check their own oil. Or you pay a preminum for somebody to swap batteries for you. So you'd pay for the new battery and installation, which I think defeats a lot of the potential cost of ownership. Plus remember you would need to have batteries at the ready within the mile range for the car.

On top of that, what happens to all these batteries once they can't be charged any further. Batteries go bad.
EV batteries tend to be pretty big for obvious reasons, and if they're anything like older hybrid batteries, they run at...considerably higher voltage than the average person can be trusted with. If you get one bad cell in the battery module of a Prius, for example, the approved fix is to pull the whole module and replace it because tearing down a 350V Li-ion pack is not something to fuck around with.

Then you've got to make sure people can't do stupid shit like switching out proper batteries for cheap Ebay chineseium packs that spontaneously combust (a noted issue with hobby lithium batteries for airsoft/RC vehicles/etc). Which means some kind of hardware DRM, and...ugh.
 
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Baffle

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It takes hours to charge a car and a fully charged car might get 200-300 miles. If you average 60mph then you are stopping every 4 hours to charge for what 1-3 hours?
Average range of an electric car is actually only about 200 miles, but fast charging only takes about 30 minutes. Electric cars wouldn't be wildly impractical in the UK (though much better infrastructure is needed ASAP), but I can't see how it would work in the states. Of course, we could all drive less ludicrously big cars.

The biggest obstacle is honestly cost. I had to replace my car a few years ago and I got a diesel that'll last me maybe eight years for ~£7K. Electrics in that price range and few and far between and you don't even own the battery, you've got to pay a lease on it.
 

CriticalGaming

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Average range of an electric car is actually only about 200 miles, but fast charging only takes about 30 minutes. Electric cars wouldn't be wildly impractical in the UK (though much better infrastructure is needed ASAP), but I can't see how it would work in the states. Of course, we could all drive less ludicrously big cars.

The biggest obstacle is honestly cost. I had to replace my car a few years ago and I got a diesel that'll last me maybe eight years for ~£7K. Electrics in that price range and few and far between and you don't even own the battery, you've got to pay a lease on it.
Yeah absolutely cost is a big problem. Which is also one of the reasons why i said that our technology simply isnt there yet. As tech improves costs go down.

Right now the cheapest Tesla is a little over 40k which isnt hugely expensive but is still out of the price range for a lot of people. Even my fully loaded 2019 Nissan with all the fancy shit they could pack into the thing was only 30k.

Im sure as making fully electric cars advances those prices will go down a bit. But not only does cost have to go down but battery life has to get better. As much as tech has improved in the last 20 years, we have made very little improvement on batteries.

200 mile ranges are nothing, i drive 520miles a week just going to and from work. Electric cars are a luxurious novelty right now, not practical replacements for everyday life.