Biden says he does not regret Afghanistan withdrawal as Taliban take over more towns

Avnger

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It is worth reexamining our understanding of history in light of the cold war, the political screening of professors and media professionals, and the unremitting propaganda directed at us since we could understand language. Even if it offends the sensibilities of some who style themselves socialists and yet want to condemn as unworthy any socialist project which enjoyed enough success to be capable of exerting power.
If your idea of a successful socialist state is the USSR, the only pretend socialist here is really you, mate. It was just as much an oligarchic, imperialist state as the US; the elites in control just happened to be ultra-rich party members directly making decisions rather than ultra-rich capitalists buying politicians to make decisions. The average worker did not own the means of production; the party elite did.
 

Seanchaidh

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If your idea of a successful socialist state is the USSR, the only pretend socialist here is really you, mate. It was just as much an oligarchic, imperialist state as the US; the elites in control just happened to be ultra-rich party members directly making decisions rather than ultra-rich capitalists buying politicians to make decisions. The average worker did not own the means of production; the party elite did.
there are criticisms to be made of the Soviet Union, but "oligarchic" and "ultra-rich party members" are so far from it. lol
 

Silvanus

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This is an incredibly silly line of argument from you as long as you insist on criticizing "occupation" and using the term "invasion"; Afghan foreign policy in the years after the Saur revolution through multiple successive leaders was: "Soviet Union, please help us fight these CIA-armed Mujahideen". Taraki and Amin negotiated a treaty to that purpose and explicitly requested it. Amin explicitly requested it after having killed Taraki. Karmal supported it. To suggest that the Soviet Union reluctantly going there and doing as all three of those leaders wished is "imperialism" or "an invasion" is an obvious and facile piece of propaganda.
But I'm not suggesting that "reluctantly going there and doing as all three of those leaders wished is imperialism or an invasion". I'm suggesting the massive amount of other shit they pulled was, which was entirely out of the remit of any invitation they had.

You've consistently (and dishonestly) downplayed their involvement to purely supporting this defensive effort. Which is utter absurdity, to be frank. They overthrew the government. They installed their own. They occupied the country for a decade. Their military, with the tacit approval of its leadership, enriched itself at the cost of the population.

You can insist on handwaving away all the other shit if you want, appealing to how awful Amin was, or insinuating that the looting was just "a few bad apples", as US neolibs do with war criminals. You can insist that the intervention was just a defence against the insurgency, in the face of its obvious nature. But anyone who isn't already predisposed to excuse and justify will regard that with about as much credence as the US characterising its occupation as purely dealing with global terrorism.
 
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Seanchaidh

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I'm suggesting the massive amount of other shit they pulled was, which was entirely out of the remit of any invitation they had.
Then your idea of what constitutes imperialism is fuzzy and useless.
 

Silvanus

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Then your idea of what constitutes imperialism is fuzzy and useless.
And yours depends solely on whether you happen to sympathise with the foreign policy aims of those perpetrating it.
 
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Seanchaidh

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And yours depends solely on whether you happen to sympathise with the foreign policy aims of those perpetrating it.
Not at all. It has to do with whether you're actually doing something that will create or maintain an empire.
 

Avnger

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create or maintain an empire.
Pray tell, how does the US qualify as an empire where the USSR did not? (outside of the USSR claiming to support but not actually practicing your political beliefs)
 
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AnxietyProne

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I understand that you believe that one claim implies the other, but I don't believe that's true. It's fine, you have your interpretation, and I have mine, it's okay that we disagree. I'm just looking for a direct quote, free of any of the hoops and gymnastics that one has to do to get from point A to point B.

I don't think you have such a direct quote, because otherwise, you or anyone else would have presented it by now, so I'll drop this subject for now.
You're clearly just annoying people at this point, whoever you are. Noone is fooled.
 

Seanchaidh

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Pray tell, how does the US qualify as an empire where the USSR did not?
As regards Afghanistan, undermining a popular revolution by arming feudal lords and then benefiting from vast quantities of cheap opium (which the government they were undermining was trying to stop production of) is imperialistic. As is taking over and enriching your ruling class on the flimsy pretense that Osama Bin Laden was in the neighborhood.

Trying to stop the United States from overthrowing a popular revolution is not, though there is some benefit to not having a bunch of warlords and religious fundamentalists in control of a country next door.

As regards the rest, the Soviet Union existed under the pressures of global capitalism and because of that could not simply become the largest hippie commune in world history. The discipline of the market which governs which firms succeed and which fail also applies to states: both must generate surplus value in order to survive. Firms must reinvest that surplus into more efficient production processes while states must do that and also invest in military preparedness. The Soviet Union could not ignore such pressures without a worldwide revolution.

(outside of the USSR claiming to support but not actually practicing your political beliefs)
You apparently think that the Politburo was filled with the likes of Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates, so I can't say I have any care what your thoughts are on whether the Soviet Union practiced my political beliefs. I don't think what they did resembled what I would have for the United States, nor that they reasonably could have done anything like that because of their different material circumstances. But they did have a lot of successes that we can learn from and made many mistakes that we can learn from (chief among them the failure to change the organization of production to one in which workers democratically control their workplaces; on the other hand, I suspect that such a move if performed from the beginning would have resulted in the Soviet Union ending by 1941 at the latest for the very obvious reason you'd think of upon seeing that date).
 

Terminal Blue

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Even if it offends the sensibilities of some who style themselves socialists and yet want to condemn as unworthy any socialist project which enjoyed enough success to be capable of exerting power.
The Soviet Union demonstrated its unworthiness at Kronstadt. Maintaining any faith in the benevolence or sincere socialist conviction of the Bolshevik regime post-Kronstadt is frankly deluded.
 
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Revnak

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It is worth reexamining our understanding of history in light of the cold war, the political screening of professors and media professionals, and the unremitting propaganda directed at us since we could understand language. Even if it offends the sensibilities of some who style themselves socialists and yet want to condemn as unworthy any socialist project which enjoyed enough success to be capable of exerting power.
This is literally the worst way to do that. It’s like re-examining socialism starting with the Khmer Rouge.
 

Seanchaidh

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They can't overthrow the government if we overthrow that government first!
Identifying the popular movement behind the PDPA and the Saur revolution with the authority of one guy-- whether it's Taraki or Amin (or Karmal)-- is quite deranged.

The Soviet Union demonstrated its unworthiness at Kronstadt. Maintaining any faith in the benevolence or sincere socialist conviction of the Bolshevik regime post-Kronstadt is frankly deluded.
It looks like acceding to the Kronstadt demands would have severely weakened the Soviet Union at a time when they had just gotten finished repelling an invasion by several great powers. Ending up like the Paris Commune isn't terrifically interesting to me. The fact that the rebellion didn't spread beyond Kronstadt suggests it wasn't interesting to anyone else either. Should the Soviet leadership have been nicer about it? Yeah. But this is one of those instances I talked about earlier (and so precisely worded!) of making every questionable decision the Soviet Union made a referendum on the whole thing which is something we don't do with e.g. the US government. Why not? Is it because things are always more complex than that?
 

Revnak

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The Soviet Union demonstrated its unworthiness at Kronstadt. Maintaining any faith in the benevolence or sincere socialist conviction of the Bolshevik regime post-Kronstadt is frankly deluded.
And social democrats demonstrated their unworthiness much earlier by supporting WWI. Should we deny Anarchists any credibility due to the tendency of syndicalists to become fascists?
 

gorfias

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Everything is fine.
I asked a buddy why this happened. He guesses that the vehicles and weapons were left behind for the Afghan army without the knowledge that they would just turn them over to the Taliban.
Maybe.
 

Avnger

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And social democrats demonstrated their unworthiness much earlier by supporting WWI. Should we deny Anarchists any credibility due to the tendency of syndicalists to become fascists?
You're comparing unlikes here. Terminal (nor anyone else in this thread) has denied vast swathes of the political spectrum such as all socialists, communists, etc, etc "any credibility". The USSR, a specific nation-state, has had its credibility called into question due to it and its leaders having acted in much the same manner, particularly in foreign policy areas, as its geopolitical rival(s) despite claims by its own propaganda system (and posters on this forum) to the contrary.
 

Avnger

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I asked a buddy why this happened. He guesses that the vehicles and weapons were left behind for the Afghan army without the knowledge that they would just turn them over to the Taliban.
Maybe.
It's a combination of the equipment being left for the Afghan security forces and the equipment being significantly more expensive to take with the US forces as they pulled out than to simply replace them.
 
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Revnak

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You're comparing unlikes here. Terminal (nor anyone else in this thread) has denied vast swathes of the political spectrum such as all socialists, communists, etc, etc "any credibility". The USSR, a specific nation-state, has had its credibility called into question due to it and its leaders having acted in much the same manner, particularly in foreign policy areas, as its geopolitical rival(s) despite claims by its own propaganda system (and posters on this forum) to the contrary.
He’s describing an event from before said state really existed, still during the civil war and while Lenin was still alive.