Biden still locks kids in cages

Seanchaidh

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Why is proof needed that nothing has changed, but no proof is needed that things have changed?

Surely a continuation of the previous situation is the null hypothesis, so the burden of proof rests on those saying its different now.
And to be clear, I'm asking because I literally cannot find reliable information that points in either direction. I've heard some people say that migrant families are still being separated and that unaccompanied children are unaccompanied mostly because of that separation. And I've heard the opposite. And I'm wondering if people who are making more declarative statements have found reliable answers or if they're just assuming an answer based on the president not being Trump anymore. Every article I've read about this subject leaves such details unstated.

Does anyone actually know if children can leave if their parents arrive to pick them up? Or if some of them can and others can't and why? Or if the answer is yes, but only by deportation?
 

Silvanus

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And to be clear, I'm asking because I literally cannot find reliable information that points in either direction. I've heard some people say that migrant families are still being separated and that unaccompanied children are unaccompanied mostly because of that separation. And I've heard the opposite. And I'm wondering if people who are making more declarative statements have found reliable answers or if they're just assuming an answer based on the president not being Trump anymore. Every article I've read about this subject leaves such details unstated.

Does anyone actually know if children can leave if their parents arrive to pick them up? Or if some of them can and others can't and why? Or if the answer is yes, but only by deportation?
I expect the opacity is by design. And if information is hard to come by, that itself is a red flag. Abuse flourishes in opaque, unreported conditions.
 

crimson5pheonix

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And to be clear, I'm asking because I literally cannot find reliable information that points in either direction. I've heard some people say that migrant families are still being separated and that unaccompanied children are unaccompanied mostly because of that separation. And I've heard the opposite. And I'm wondering if people who are making more declarative statements have found reliable answers or if they're just assuming an answer based on the president not being Trump anymore. Every article I've read about this subject leaves such details unstated.

Does anyone actually know if children can leave if their parents arrive to pick them up? Or if some of them can and others can't and why? Or if the answer is yes, but only by deportation?
Best parody of this: They'll release children to their parents as soon as they can identify themselves with some form of US issued ID.
 

Revnak

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Best parody of this: They'll release children to their parents as soon as they can identify themselves with some form of US issued ID.
Also possible, ICE deports any parents they find before the kids can be reunited with them. Absurdly possible given ICE is operating independently of the administration already, and the kids are being held by private contractors who don’t actually do the job of finding people.
 

Agema

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And to be clear, I'm asking because I literally cannot find reliable information that points in either direction. I've heard some people say that migrant families are still being separated and that unaccompanied children are unaccompanied mostly because of that separation. And I've heard the opposite. And I'm wondering if people who are making more declarative statements have found reliable answers or if they're just assuming an answer based on the president not being Trump anymore. Every article I've read about this subject leaves such details unstated.
Well, it's fair to say that people higher up the pecking order tend to not know things if they are not told. And if an agency's staff are obstructive, or are not running with systems of transparency and accountability, even someone well-meaning running it may be (unwittingly) running a clusterfuck.

I can totally believe that the clownshoes Trump administration did not organise ICE competently, and (as with their usual habits) little transparency and accountability.
 

Eacaraxe

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And a hotel won’t have purpose built facilities for medical examinations, interviews and recreation (that don’t have be shared with other guests paying out of their own pocket) for any detainees to use. So sure the hotel looks cheap, but only if you look at the end result of a breakdown and not what that breakdown contains.
They're economic and political refugees, not an invading army.

But God forbid anyone in the United States ask themselves why or how they're political and economic refugees to begin with.

The US will spend exorbitant amounts of money to make them refugees in the first place in one imperialist boondoggle after another, then spend exorbitant amounts of money ensuring they're treated as inhumanely as public opinion will allow -- and as we've seen, that's nowadays everything short of outright genocide -- but the nanosecond someone suggests a more cost-effective solution to "fiscal conservatives", well hold the phones, that's treating refugees better than we treat poor and working class Americans and we can't have that!

But God forbid anyone in the United States ask themselves why the poor and working class in the wealthiest and "most advanced" country on the planet get treated like an third world underclass to begin with.

The point isn't about what's cheapest or most effective, or even what will "deter illegal immigration". The point is dehumanizing the economic and political refugees the US creates then "has" to deal with. The US, after all, needs a permanent underclass to do the jobs no one else wants, that haven't been automated yet and are likely going away soon to automation anyways. Hell, not that the US is neither unique or even exceptional in this regard, we're basically taking notes from the way the Palestinian diaspora is treated between Israel and its Gulf state bedfellows; but, the point is this hullabaloo isn't and never was about any humanitarian concern save manufacturing consent for exploitation of imported labor.
 
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Thaluikhain

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The point isn't about what's cheapest or most effective, or even what will "deter illegal immigration". The point is dehumanizing the economic and political refugees the US creates then "has" to deal with. The US, after all, needs a permanent underclass to do the jobs no one else wants, that haven't been automated yet and are likely going away soon to automation anyways. Hell, not that the US is neither unique or even exceptional in this regard, we're basically taking notes from the way the Palestinian diaspora is treated between Israel and its Gulf state bedfellows; but, the point is this hullabaloo isn't and never was about any humanitarian concern save manufacturing consent for exploitation of imported labor.
Some credit should go to Australia, the US is cribbing some of our ideas. Though, here, it seems less about keeping an underclass and more that the problem of not being cruel to refugees is easier to fix and tell the public about than the real problems Australian society has.
 

tstorm823

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but the nanosecond someone suggests a more cost-effective solution to "fiscal conservatives", well hold the phones, that's treating refugees better than we treat poor and working class Americans and we can't have that!
Did you even read the post you were responding to? They were explaining to you that hotels are cheaper because they are a worse solution, that the united states isn't just shoving people in rooms with beds, the facilities for children especially have recreational, educational, and medical facilities that hotels don't. Shoving people into a hotel with guards and not giving the kids education, outdoor activity, or medical care would be cheaper sure, but it'd be awfully inhumane.

The US isn't making the refugee children, the US is giving them acceptable living conditions, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
 

Eacaraxe

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Did you even read the post you were responding to?
Yes and it was wrong, just like you. For, you see,

They were explaining to you that hotels are cheaper because they are a worse solution, that the united states isn't just shoving people in rooms with beds, the facilities for children especially have recreational, educational, and medical facilities that hotels don't. Shoving people into a hotel with guards and not giving the kids education, outdoor activity, or medical care would be cheaper sure, but it'd be awfully inhumane.
Most hotels already have recreational facilities on site. And for all else, there are these really cool things called "busses" that you can put kids on and drive them to a local school where they'd be enrolled, playgrounds for scheduled rec time hotels can't provide already on site, and nearby hospitals and clinics for health care. In fact, most hotels also have these things called "conference rooms" where you could have on-site tutoring for catch-up education and English classes, and even for health care-related services like check-ups and vaccinations! Non-profit organizations even provide those exact services for free, the government could partner with for at-cost provision!

Because using already-existing infrastructure and finding low-cost solutions through NPO's will always be cheaper than multi-million-dollar facilities, the infrastructure to support those facilities, and paying for-profit corporations to staff and administrate those facilities!

The US isn't making the refugee children, the US is giving them acceptable living conditions, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
No, you just reject reality and substitute your own. We've had this conversation multiple times about how Mexican immigration post-NAFTA is attributed to the collapse of the ejido system, a consequence of US interference with the Mexican government and economy. And, how post-Clinton immigration from central and southern America is attributed to US interference in Honduras, Venezuela, Guatemala, and El Salvador, including but not limited to decades of sanctions, trade manipulation, and political coups. I'm not having it with you again, because you're willfully ignorant of it.
 

Gethsemani

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Most hotels already have recreational facilities on site. And for all else, there are these really cool things called "busses" that you can put kids on and drive them to a local school where they'd be enrolled, playgrounds for scheduled rec time hotels can't provide already on site, and nearby hospitals and clinics for health care. In fact, most hotels also have these things called "conference rooms" where you could have on-site tutoring for catch-up education and English classes, and even for health care-related services like check-ups and vaccinations! Non-profit organizations even provide those exact services for free, the government could partner with for at-cost provision!

Because using already-existing infrastructure and finding low-cost solutions through NPO's will always be cheaper than multi-million-dollar facilities, the infrastructure to support those facilities, and paying for-profit corporations to staff and administrate those facilities!
So your idea to save money is to do a lot of things that will require expanding the security staff several times over? The thing these "fancy" holding facilities all have is a serious consideration for shell protection and control of passage to and from the facilities themselves. This allows them to be ran by a relatively lean staff, because you don't need extra staff just to monitor exits and you don't need to send out search parties into the surrounding area every time a kid goes missing, because the possibility of them leaving the premises is only slightly north of zero. Add on benefits are that if you have healthcare, education and other facilities on the premises, you don't need extra guards because it will take one or two guards all of five minutes to escort a kid across the compound to the nurse or their math class. The fact that you can control exactly who has access to the kids and what kind of goods get brought in are just fringe benefits in terms of cost saving but are massive in terms of covering the worst case scenarios like abducted children or children starting to do heavy drugs.

To put the kids up in hotels, to send them to public schools and off-site medical facilities, or even just trying to conduct all the basic necessities mandated by the declaration of children's rights in a hotel would make staff cost skyrocket and would leave the children massively at risk. A hotel is a place not designed with security in mind and eloping children, abducted children and all the other risks that come with not being able to keep a high degree of supervision would shoot up markedly, as you struggle to find enough people with at least basic security training to meet the excessive demand you suddenly have. In the end, you'd be spending more money on staff and have a constant unacceptable risk level for major security events.

As shit as the ICE compounds where (and I am guessing they still are, for the most part), they were designed to ensure the safety of the people detained in them. Because those people, the children especially, are at a massively elevated risk of falling victim to human trafficking, slavery or simple organ harvesting from organized crime. To prevent that you need to keep security really tight. Much more tight then your average hotel complex could ever be. That's not to say that I agree with the way ICE has acted, but once you've done something as shitty as separate kids from their parents, you need to really, really watch those kids for their sake. Both to protect the kids from themselves and, most importantly, from the kind of people that have no compunctions about preying on children.
 
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Silvanus

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The US isn't making the refugee children, the US is giving them acceptable living conditions, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
People seek refuge from warfare, destruction and instability at home. The US has waged various wars overseas, often toppling the government and failing to replace it with a stable or representative substitute. The US military has been known to obliterate residential areas and hospitals in the countries in which it is involved. It has also effectively sponsored other expansionist military efforts (such as that currently ongoing in Yemen), creating even more war zones and unlivable areas. Vast swathes of foreign countries have been rendered unsafe.

Yes, these efforts create the circumstances in which people need to seek refuge for safety.
 
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tstorm823

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We've had this conversation multiple times about...
Pretty confident you're thinking of someone else.

People seek refuge from warfare, destruction and instability at home. The US has waged various wars overseas, often toppling the government and failing to replace it with a stable or representative substitute. The US military has been known to obliterate residential areas and hospitals in the countries in which it is involved. It has also effectively sponsored other expansionist military efforts (such as that currently ongoing in Yemen), creating even more war zones and areas. Vast swathes of foreign countries have been rendered unsafe.

Yes, these efforts create the circumstances in which people need to seek refuge for safety.
Sure, but you're not talking about current day Guatemala. The current migration crisis out of central America has decidedly occurred after the era of US interventionism in the region. People crossing the southern US border aren't fleeing US bombs.
 
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Gethsemani

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Sure, but you're not talking about current day Guatemala. The current migration crisis out of central America has decidedly occurred after the era of US interventionism in the region. People crossing the southern US border aren't fleeing US bombs.
But they are fleeing the repercussions of a century and a half of US interventionism and aggressive foreign policy in the Americas, especially in the last fifty years or so with the War on Drugs. They aren't fleeing literal US bombs, but a lot of the social issues plaguing the nations they are migrating from are indirectly caused by the US constant meddling in domestic politics to ensure US friendly regimes are in power.
 

Revnak

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But they are fleeing the repercussions of a century and a half of US interventionism and aggressive foreign policy in the Americas, especially in the last fifty years or so with the War on Drugs. They aren't fleeing literal US bombs, but a lot of the social issues plaguing the nations they are migrating from are indirectly caused by the US constant meddling in domestic politics to ensure US friendly regimes are in power.
They’re also quite often still fleeing very literal US bombs. School of the Americas is still an ongoing thing, despite various rebrandings, as the recent coup attempts in Venezuela and Bolivia demonstrate.
 

tstorm823

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But they are fleeing the repercussions of a century and a half of US interventionism and aggressive foreign policy in the Americas, especially in the last fifty years or so with the War on Drugs. They aren't fleeing literal US bombs, but a lot of the social issues plaguing the nations they are migrating from are indirectly caused by the US constant meddling in domestic politics to ensure US friendly regimes are in power.
And by total coincidence I'm sure, once the US friendly regimes are out of power, people begin fleeing the countries.
 

Gethsemani

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And by total coincidence I'm sure, once the US friendly regimes are out of power, people begin fleeing the countries.
Yeah, people tend to leave en masse when formerly closed borders open again. That's all pretty semantical though, since the Monroe doctrine and its evolution are well understood facets of US foreign policy. Similarly, the effect it has had on the nations of central and south America is also well understood, especially the destabilizing effect that has led to widespread poverty and repeated failures to form stable, democratic governments (that the CIA has ousted several democratically elected governments that didn't suit US interests being a prominent problem in this context). The irony is that people fleeing aggressive US foreign policy have nowhere to flee but to the USA.
 
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Silvanus

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You think closed borders were preventing a crisis of illegal immigration?
The substitution of "refugees" for "illegal immigrants" hasn't gone unnoticed. Nor the unseemly implications that go along with it.
 

Avnger

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You think closed borders were preventing a crisis of illegal immigration?
Refugees are legal immigrants.....

Did you not know that or do you just not care? Alternatively, this could just be your unconscious bias against these people whether that's due to race, wealth, or simply not "winning" the genetic lottery to be born in the US.