Biden still locks kids in cages

Seanchaidh

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Because they see border enforcement as the cause of migrant issues, rather than the circumstances they are fleeing.
So we aren't to trust this group to act in good faith because you think they are mistaken in their priorities..? Surely there is more to it than that.
 

tstorm823

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So we aren't to trust this group to act in good faith because you think they are mistaken in their priorities..? Surely there is more to it than that.
No, as I tried to point out by analogy several times, it isn't about what they support or oppose specifically. I don't assume someone is untrustworthy because they disagree with me, and I've been holding up a group with theoretically the same priorities as them as a foil.

I find them untrustworthy not because of who they oppose, but because 1) they've pushed hard on claims that the people they already oppose are guilty of crimes that no other group, even those who share the same basic mission, is presenting any evidence for, 2) their evidence is at most that only their specific group has had conflicts with CBP, 3) they've exaggerated their claims with statistical analysis built on logical contradictions, and 4) the bias in their public statements is so extreme as to raise doubt they can present any objective facts at all.
 

Seanchaidh

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No, as I tried to point out by analogy several times, it isn't about what they support or oppose specifically. I don't assume someone is untrustworthy because they disagree with me, and I've been holding up a group with theoretically the same priorities as them as a foil.

I find them untrustworthy not because of who they oppose, but because 1) they've pushed hard on claims that the people they already oppose are guilty of crimes that no other group, even those who share the same basic mission, is presenting any evidence for, 2) their evidence is at most that only their specific group has had conflicts with CBP, 3) they've exaggerated their claims with statistical analysis built on logical contradictions, and 4) the bias in their public statements is so extreme as to raise doubt they can present any objective facts at all.
You say 'bias', but what if they're just correct? Your reasoning looks like it's proceeding from the fallacy of the golden mean.
 

tstorm823

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You say 'bias', but what if they're just correct? Your reasoning looks like it's proceeding from the fallacy of the golden mean.
Firstly, you skipped a few parts.
Secondly, this is a group that is actively pushing a campaign to label missing persons near the border as "disappeared", trying to create an image of CBP as the secret police pulling people into black vans, even if the missing person died in the desert in Mexico. For contrast, Humane Borders has a page on their website listing all the phone numbers needed to find a missing person. No More Deaths aren't "just correct". They are willing to push factual misunderstandings if it rhetorically supports their political goals.
 

Seanchaidh

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Firstly, you skipped a few parts.
Secondly, this is a group that is actively pushing a campaign to label missing persons near the border as "disappeared", trying to create an image of CBP as the secret police pulling people into black vans, even if the missing person died in the desert in Mexico. For contrast, Humane Borders has a page on their website listing all the phone numbers needed to find a missing person. No More Deaths aren't "just correct". They are willing to push factual misunderstandings if it rhetorically supports their political goals.
ok, so you have a problem with labeling missing persons 'disappeared' in a context where they are often captured and confined in a process that is opaque to their families and communities (not to mention the president of the United States, apparently). this isn't a factual misunderstanding, you just don't like it.
 

tstorm823

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ok, so you have a problem with labeling missing persons 'disappeared' in a context where they are often captured and confined in a process that is opaque to their families and communities (not to mention the president of the United States, apparently). this isn't a factual misunderstanding, you just don't like it.
They're detaining migrants from multiple countries who may not be upfront about who they are. How does one notify family in that situation? That's not disappearing someone, it's a genuinely difficult situation. And No More Deaths apply the terminology to people who die in the wilderness, where their only hope of survival is being found by border patrol. And if the migrants do bypass border patrol, they are more invisible than if they're caught, being undocumented, without record of where they are or willingness to work with any authorities.

And they rationalize their use of the word in a linguistic way that is annoyingly stupid, because the Spanish word for "missing" is "desaparecidas" which could also mean disappeared, and they've chosen to ignore both the context and popular usage of the word when people say "I'm looking for a missing person" in Spanish. Like, that's actually offensive. Deliberately mistranslating people's words, pretending there's a cultural divide when they are saying exactly what we would say in English, for the purpose of political rhetoric, is offensive. What a bunch of bullcrap.
 

Seanchaidh

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They're detaining migrants from multiple countries who may not be upfront about who they are. How does one notify family in that situation? That's not disappearing someone, it's a genuinely difficult situation. And No More Deaths apply the terminology to people who die in the wilderness, where their only hope of survival is being found by border patrol. And if the migrants do bypass border patrol, they are more invisible than if they're caught, being undocumented, without record of where they are or willingness to work with any authorities.

And they rationalize their use of the word in a linguistic way that is annoyingly stupid, because the Spanish word for "missing" is "desaparecidas" which could also mean disappeared, and they've chosen to ignore both the context and popular usage of the word when people say "I'm looking for a missing person" in Spanish. Like, that's actually offensive. Deliberately mistranslating people's words, pretending there's a cultural divide when they are saying exactly what we would say in English, for the purpose of political rhetoric, is offensive. What a bunch of bullcrap.
you can supply an alternative explanation which reflects poorly, but what you haven't done is show that it's correct.
 

tstorm823

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you can supply an alternative explanation which reflects poorly, but what you haven't done is show that it's correct.
You're perfectly content to state my motives without evidence, but you'll criticize me for not proving theirs?
 

tstorm823

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Your motives are not exactly a secret. Your reputation for partisan hackery is well earned.
I might take this seriously if you didn't routinely accuse me of believing things I don't, including in this thread.
 

Buyetyen

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I might take this seriously if you didn't routinely accuse me of believing things I don't, including in this thread.
We only have your word to go on for that, and we've already established what your word is worth. Don't like it? Try to be more honest in the future. With hard work and determination you can rehab your rep.
 

tstorm823

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We only have your word to go on for that, and we've already established what your word is worth. Don't like it? Try to be more honest in the future. With hard work and determination you can rehab your rep.
Your view of my reputation is your fault. I'm forward and honest. We can disagree, but I'm not lying on here. Because I disagree with you on many things, you believe I'm dishonest whether I'm disagreeing with you or not. There is nothing I can do to change your mind until you realize that you're the problem.
 

Buyetyen

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Your view of my reputation is your fault. I'm forward and honest. We can disagree, but I'm not lying on here. Because I disagree with you on many things, you believe I'm dishonest whether I'm disagreeing with you or not. There is nothing I can do to change your mind until you realize that you're the problem.
No, I believe you're dishonest because you keep getting caught bullshitting.
 

Gergar12

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The problem is not conservatives who will vote Trump no matter what, liberals who will vote Biden no matter what. It's racist suburbanite independents who are racist against Hispanics. (I don't call them Latinx or Latino because Hispanics don't want to be called that according to polling)

It's because of these racist pseudo centrists we have this problem. Due to suburbanites from Texas, Georgia, Ohio, and Arizona being somewhat racist is why we have to fear immigration from Hispanic countries. Real centrist is cosmopolitans that agree with immigration-friendly liberals, progressives, social democrats, and the broader left.

You guys may hate Manchin, but his voters will vote Republican no matter what.

Biden is not a racist immigrant hater, and Harris isn't either but Sinema's voters are somewhat like this.

These people are greedy, short-sighted, and dangerous to the continuation of America as a world power, and to the very essence of the American dream.
 

crimson5pheonix

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