Biden's Cabinet of Curiosities

Eacaraxe

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Which seems a bit odd to me.
Because it isn't odd at all, you're just looking at it wrong and that's making it seem odd to you. This isn't about partisanship; it's about the acquisition, consolidation, and protection of power. Neither party wants to erode the unitary executive, and neither party is going to erode the unitary executive regardless of the empty promises they make to their respective bases. Exactly the same as federalist expansionism, police and surveillance power, military power, economic power, or electoral power in terms of intra-party politics or extra-party politics.

The latter being key -- note how little of a ruckus the Democratic party makes of Republican-passed electoral law during its own primary season, when Democratic primaries are conducted in the same times, places, and manners? The end result being, the very demos for which the Democratic party claims to stand, are the ones maximally-disenfranchised during its own primaries and the Democratic party has zero problem with it -- so long as it's not of use as a perennial wedge issue.

That's the nature of the game, power protects power. What you're seeing isn't Democratic or Republican in fundamental nature, it's power protecting power.

...The GOP set a lot of precedents when they were in power.
How many of which represent a willing concession of power on the part of one or more branches of government?
 
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Asita

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...for one thing, Biden also had credible sexual assault allegations levied against him which have been and will continue to be forcefully denied, and his own DoJ which I'll remind you is a department of the executive branch and therefore serves at the President's will, isn't going to lay the legal framework allowing him to be sued.

And this goes back to my exact point in the thread I linked: Biden's DoJ won't be doing a damn thing other than defend Trump because it is simply irrational for them to do otherwise. Any action taken now will impact their future potential liability in the event of scandal or upon leaving office, and Biden's DoJ is not going to lay legal framework that could be used against them in the future, let alone legal framework that erodes the unitary executive nor imposes any constraint on presidential power, privilege, and immunity.
I don't think you realize that your argument still doesn't support the implications you were trying to make in the first place. "Biden has sexual assault allegations against him that he will continue to deny?" Yeah? And? I mean I did explicitly say that denying such allegations were "par for the course for a politician" and thus why Westfall is understood to at least arguably cover such denials. Hell, the exact logic behind that is spelled out in the case of Council On American Islamic Relations (CAIR) v. Ballenger, which ruled that "A Member’s ability to do his job as a legislator effectively is tied, as in this case, to the Member’s relationship with the public and in particular his constituents and colleagues in the Congress. In other words, there was a clear nexus between the congressman answering a reporter's question about the congressman's personal life and the congressman's ability to carry out his representative responsibilities effectively".

As said, defending Trump against that particular allegation (and, as a reminder, they are not defending him against the allegations of sexual assault but rather the defamation case built around Trump publicly denying those allegations while he was in office) is both wholly unsurprising due to precedent and completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not the DoJ would defend him for the Capitol Riot. You're trying to draw equivalence between the two so as to argue that the DoJ not defending Trump on any issue would open the door for Biden being accused of the same, but even if we take your cynical logic as a given, Biden does not have anything remotely resembling Trump's involvement with the Capitol Riot to his name, making it a moot point even by your own logic.

But let's not mince words here. The argument you're making here is "that the DoJ is defending him against defamation charges for denying allegations against him while in office proves that they will defend him in a case about incitement/insurrection". The argument simply does not follow and is based largely on excising all the necessary nuance that differentiates the cases in favor of a - frankly idiotic - perspective that insists there's no qualitative difference between denying a public allegation and rallying a mob to try and halt/overturn a governmental process. It's like arguing that since the courts would find Jack calling Alex an idiot to be protected speech, they must similarly rule that Jack filing a false police report against his neighbor must also be ruled as protected speech. The former in no way implies the latter.

Westfall is commonly understood to cover the denial of allegations against a politician. It is not understood to cover inciting a riot to disrupt and overturn a democratic process.
 
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Eacaraxe

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The argument simply does not follow and is based largely on excising all the necessary nuance that differentiates the cases in favor of a - frankly idiotic - perspective that insists there's no qualitative difference between denying a public allegation and rallying a mob to try and halt/overturn a governmental process.
Yes it does, regardless of case facts the salient legal question is the same: is a former president potentially liable in civil court for statements made while president. The answer to that is no, because of Westfall immunity: that president cannot even be named defendant in a civil case, the defendant must be the federal government which means sovereign immunity then applies. Your wild appeals to emotion based on case facts, do not change the salient legal question.

And the Biden administration is absolutely going to make that argument. Because to do otherwise is irrational as it creates a potential erosion of executive powers, privileges, and immunities. Exactly as the Obama administration did in Saleh v. Bush.

It is not understood to cover inciting a riot to disrupt and overturn a democratic process.
Repeat after me: imminent lawless action.
 

Asita

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Yes it does, regardless of case facts the salient legal question is the same: is a former president potentially liable in civil court for statements made while president. The answer to that is no, because of Westfall immunity: that president cannot even be named defendant in a civil case, the defendant must be the federal government which means sovereign immunity then applies. Your wild appeals to emotion based on case facts, do not change the salient legal question.
Except that's not the salient legal question. Westfall is not a carte blanche for anything and everything an elected official says while they hold a federal office. It's a protection that only applies to speech that is made while they are engaged in their legitimate duties, which is a very important qualifier (and one that you might recall was explicitly referenced in the excerpt from CAIR v. Ballenger). And on that note, per the very source that you cited to try and claim validation of your preconceptions:

Andonian and other attorneys argue there’s a legal distinction between Trump’s attacks on Carroll and his incendiary speeches seeking to reverse his election loss.

Ben Berwick, a lawyer representing the Capitol police officers, said that Trump's appearance at the Jan. 6 gathering just before the Capitol insurrection amounted to a "campaign rally" unrelated to his official duties. That’s a different setting, he said, than the presidential news conference where Trump made the statements about Carroll.

"He is effectively acting as a candidate," Berwick said. "He has no official role in the certification of electoral votes."

Joseph Sellers, an attorney representing Congressman Thompson in his suit against Trump, concurred that Trump had stepped well beyond the cover of presidential immunity.

"I don't think anyone would think it's within the scope of the president's legitimate duties to encourage people to interfere with the functioning of another branch of government," Sellers said. "He was promoting an insurrection and a riot."
Repeat after me: imminent lawless action.
Translation: You've tacitly acknowledged that your interpretation is baseless, but are pretending it doesn't matter.
 
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Eacaraxe

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...Westfall is not a carte blanche for anything and everything an elected official says while they hold a federal office. It's a protection that only applies to speech that is made while they are engaged in their legitimate duties, which is a very important qualifier...
It's also a meaningless qualifier. Case in point, that Carroll's counsel cites as at least one instance of alleged defamation statements made by Trump not at a press event but rather extemporaneously fielding questions from reporters before boarding Marine Force One, which was argued to be outside his scope of office because the statements were not made at a press event. Likewise, another instance of alleged defamation was written, sent by the press secretary to a reporter absent letterhead, document numeration or filing, or as stated in the relevant memorandum, "any other signs of official process". And of course the third -- the interview with The Hill -- which was argued to be outside the scope of his Presidential duties as the majority of the interview was about the 2020 election.

But of course, being you're the one that won't shut up about Ballenger you're already well aware of that last instance. Because it's the only way you can defend that point and try to draw a distinction between it and the Capitol riot case, whilst trying to preserve plaintiffs' arguments and sidestep that Westfall immunity extends to political/campaign activity (Operation Rescue National v. United States). Because litigants' arguments in a case are neither case facts nor established law, especially as they are by necessity conflicted parties, and what you present are plaintiffs' arguments which present themselves as self-contradictory and ultimately self-defeating.

Because if Trump's comments on January 6th are indeed to be understood as tantamount to campaign speech, being that Westfall immunity has been ruled by the courts to apply to campaign speech, plaintiffs' counsel is arguing Westfall immunity applies to what they're trying to sue Trump for in the first place. In other words, yes what I identified as the salient legal question, is in fact the salient legal question and everything you've brought to the fore here is, yet again, sound and fury signifying nothing.

Translation: You've tacitly acknowledged that your interpretation is baseless, but are pretending it doesn't matter.
Or, you simply fail to understand exactly how high the legal barrier is to declaring political speech as incitement in the first place. Which is A, why the criminal case failed in part, and B, why this is a civil case in which the preponderance standard applies. Because if Trump's statements cannot be understood as incitement in the first place, the civil case is meritless.

None of which is relevant anyways, because once again the issue is whether the Biden administration will defend Trump in this case, and they will. Because to let Trump take the "L" is to create a precedent in which a sitting president can and would be held liable for malfeasance (real or perceived) once they leave office. No sitting president nor their administration will ever willingly allow that precedent to be created, out of naked self-interest.

If their predecessor is to be held liable, they can and will be too once they're out of office. Because as I pointed out, that's precisely what the Obama administration did with the former Bush administration and for the same reason.
 

Gergar12

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Biden's a lot more ruthless than he lets on.

He...

Denies refugees from Cuba thus ensuring conservative refugees don't swing Florida's votes.

Withdraws from Afghanistan despite outcry from feminists, and human rights organizations.

Is willing to give the 3rd shot of the vaccine to Americans despite the WHO begging him not to.

He is declaring war on the middle-class FIRE investment. Financial Independence, Retire Early which allows middle-class capable people to slack off from age 40 or 45 until they died by attacking dividends from investments due to the low-interest rates from the Fed.

He sidelines Canada, and New Zealand the most China-friendly of the five eyes, and forms a pact with Australia, UK, and the US.

Refuses to sign a trade deal this early on in his admin to undercut Trump.

He sidelines France for signing a trade deal with China via the EU by giving nuclear attack sub tech to Australia vs having France do their price-gouging 90 billion attack subproject with Australia.


And this is just off the top of my head. If it's him vs a progressive in the 2024 presidential primaries, we are screwed.
 
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Seanchaidh

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I'm being told that it's very important that the implements being used to whip people are actually reins.


Guess that settles that, then.
 
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Gergar12

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For some reason that I don't know about. Biden hates Haitians.