Biden's Executive Orders

Gergar12

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It takes a perverse kind of logic to conclude that the US should continue to provide the weapons used to commit human rights abuses... in order to maintain influence that might theoretically be used to prevent those same human rights abuses. How's that been going so far?

The US is not leveraging this alliance for any moral good; don't fool yourself. Its for regional strategic purposes and money. Neither of which justify killing innocent people.



And the UAE/ Saudi Arabia are anti-democratic despots, lobbing their weaponry at unprotected civilians. Oh, you pick your friends, all right.
The Saudis are literally a royal family that slaughter various minorities and brutally enforce their continued totalitarian rule. There is nothing more anti-Democratic than literal monarchy.

They are both bad, The Houthis overthrow a democratically elected government in Yemen. The first video I saw of them was them ranting about the US is evil.

The slogan of the Houthi movement (officially called Ansar Allah), a political and religious movement and rebel group in Yemen, reads "Allah is Greater, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam" in Arabic text.

They are Yemani ISIS.
 

Agema

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They are Yemani ISIS.
Well, not really.

I'm sure there's a lot of fine detail, but it boils down to that Yemen is half Sunni and half Shia: they don't tend to like each other in the first place, and Saudi Arabia and Iran want to fight a proxy war through them.
 

Gergar12

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Well, not really.

I'm sure there's a lot of fine detail, but it boils down to that Yemen is half Sunni and half Shia: they don't tend to like each other in the first place, and Saudi Arabia and Iran want to fight a proxy war through them.
The previous government was in Yemen was democracy elected.
 

Agema

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The previous government was in Yemen was democracy elected.
...in 2003.

And the last presidential election was in 2012, with only one candidate.

That is not a functional democracy.
 
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Gergar12

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And that's why we need to sell billions of dollars worth of munitions to Saudi Arabia?

I don't quite follow the logic.
...in 2003.

And the last presidential election was in 2012, with only one candidate.

That is not a functional democracy.
Yes, and no. We need to sell arms to the Saudis so that they don't buy from other arms companies like Russia, Turkey, and China, except the F-35. We need to sell the F-35 to UAE to reward them for stopping the annexation of the west bank that Israel tried.

As for Yemen, the previous government was a flawed democracy this one is an Iranian-style Shia dictatorship I prefer the previous government over this one.

I know some people on the left like to suck up to Iran because of the logic the enemy of my enemy is my friends. But they are only marginally better than the Saudis, and not by much. They both suck. but it's always Saudi Arabia sucks, and never Iran sucks from the left.

Let's pretend we are a different person, let's pretend we are an American student/citizen with no anti-host country political activities. That student goes to Saudi Arabia, and visits some places, and doesn't die, and does not get tortured for being an American.

You visit Iran, you get beaten, and held hostage, and exchange years later in a prisoner swap. That's what happened to a Chinese-American student who was an American who listens to idiot naive western professors who told him the reason Iran hates us is because of the 1950s revolution. He went there for a project, and they arrested him and held him hostage.

The Ayatollahs which Reddit Left-Wingers and many progressives support hate you. At best they want a Shia-dominated region in the middle east from which to oppress Sunnis and other non-Shias, and at worst they want the world to be Muslim Shia, and for them to control the world. They are religious fascist bigots like the Christan evangelicals in America like The Saudi Regime, they are just better at it.

 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Yes, and no. We need to sell arms to the Saudis so that they don't buy from other arms companies like Russia, Turkey, and China, except the F-35. We need to sell the F-35 to UAE to reward them for stopping the annexation of the west bank that Israel tried.

As for Yemen, the previous government was a flawed democracy this one is an Iranian-style Shia dictatorship I prefer the previous government over this one.

I know some people on the left like to suck up to Iran because of the logic the enemy of my enemy is my friends. But they are only marginally better than the Saudis, and not by much. They both suck. but it's always Saudi Arabia sucks, and never Iran sucks from the left.

Let's pretend we are a different person, let's pretend we are an American student/citizen with no anti-host country political activities. That student goes to Saudi Arabia, and visits some places, and doesn't die, and does not get tortured for being an American.

You visit Iran, you get beaten, and held hostage, and exchange years later in a prisoner swap. That's what happened to a Chinese-American student who was an American who listens to idiot naive western professors who told him the reason Iran hates us is because of the 1950s revolution. He went there for a project, and they arrested him and held him hostage.

The Ayatollahs which Reddit Left-Wingers and many progressives support hate you. At best they want a Shia-dominated region in the middle east from which to oppress Sunnis and other non-Shias, and at worst they want the world to be Muslim Shia, and for them to control the world. They are religious fascist bigots like the Christan evangelicals in America like The Saudi Regime, they are just better at it.

Cool story, bro
 

Gergar12

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Cool story, bro
Bin Salman is doing this to get rid of his political enemies not because he hates Americans, plenty of American visit Saudi Arabia each year without this while Iran treats Americans much worst.

Also let's compare Vietnam, and Iran for a second. We were much worst to Vietnam, we did agent orange(a war crime), and damn near occupy half of their country despite the fact that Ho Chin Minh ask the US for help against the French(De Gaulle was a imperialist btw), and in turn, they did less bad stuff to us like torture prisoners, and so fore. But they came to their senses and even allowed Americans to visit their country because their elite aren't nutjobs who view everything within the lens of invisible men in sky who rule over everything.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Bin Salman is doing this to get rid of his political enemies not because he hates Americans, plenty of American visit Saudi Arabia each year without this while Iran treats Americans much worst.

Also let's compare Vietnam, and Iran for a second. We were much worst to Vietnam, we did agent orange(a war crime), and damn near occupy half of their country despite the fact that Ho Chin Minh ask the US for help against the French(De Gaulle was a imperialist btw), and in turn, they did less bad stuff to us like torture prisoners, and so fore. But they came to their senses and even allowed Americans to visit their country because their elite aren't nutjobs who view everything within the lens of invisible men in sky who rule over everything.
We probably wouldn't be on such good terms with Vietnam if we were selling weapons to their enemies (which coincidently end up supplied to terrorist groups), continued to sanction their economy since the dictator we backed got ousted, endorsed other country's attacks on their soil, regularly pirated their trade ships on the open seas, and assassinated their leaders.

But go ahead, blame this on religion somehow. Maybe try "they hate us for our freedom". God forbid the US take any personal responsibility for the shit we pull on a national level, and it definitely excuses selling billions of dollars in weapons to an oppressive monarchy using them to commit a genocide.
 

Gergar12

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We probably wouldn't be on such good terms with Vietnam if we were selling weapons to their enemies (which coincidently end up supplied to terrorist groups), continued to sanction their economy since the dictator we backed got ousted, endorsed other country's attacks on their soil, regularly pirated their trade ships on the open seas, and assassinated their leaders.

But go ahead, blame this on religion somehow. Maybe try "they hate us for our freedom". God forbid the US take any personal responsibility for the shit we pull on a national level, and it definitely excuses selling billions of dollars in weapons to an oppressive monarchy using them to commit a genocide.
But they pirate ships like oil tankers we pirated like one of their ships, they sent arms to terrorist groups like Hezbollah in Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, they try to assassinate US, and the US align leaders in the region. They tried to attack us in our territory via the attempted murder of a foreign diplomat.

And didn't Hezbollah literally kill hundreds of Jews in Argentina, what was that for?? Those jews weren't doing anything wrong they weren't in Israel, they weren't in the US, and yet Iran/Hezbollah still killed them because their government and conservative elite are racist fascist bigots. They are the most anti-Semitic government in the region full stop.

Edit: Also what are you proposing as a policy solution to end this hatred, Are you purposing we pull all troops out of the ME, weaken our allies in the region by not selling arms to them, let Hezbollah and Iran ran amok in the region. Will they stop hating Israel, and Sunni Muslims after we stop sanctioning them, and stop Shia proxy group attacks. My guess is no.

Iran should not be the hegemon in the Middle East, they are a fascist government like China.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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But they pirate ships like oil tankers we pirated like one of their ships, they sent arms to terrorist groups like Hezbollah in Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, they try to assassinate US, and the US align leaders in the region. They tried to attack us in our territory via the attempted murder of a foreign diplomat.

And didn't Hezbollah literally kill hundreds of Jews in Argentina, what was that for?? Those jews weren't doing anything wrong they weren't in Israel, they weren't in the US, and yet Iran/Hezbollah still killed them because their government and conservative elite are racist fascist bigots. They are the most anti-Semitic government in the region full stop.

Edit: Also what are you proposing as a policy solution to end this hatred, Are you purposing we pull all troops out of the ME, weaken our allies in the region by not selling arms to them, let Hezbollah and Iran ran amok in the region. Will they stop hating Israel, and Sunni Muslims after we stop sanctioning them, and stop Shia proxy group attacks. My guess is no.

Iran should not be the hegemon in the Middle East, they are a fascist government like China.
Which is why we should keep selling weapons to totalitarian monarchies pulling a genocide. Good plan.

Like, I know we can't go back in time and fix this...but we started this. And what we're doing now is actively counter-productive.

But as long as we're helping murder the right civilians, liberals are a-okay with the plan.
 

Generals

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But they pirate ships like oil tankers we pirated like one of their ships, they sent arms to terrorist groups like Hezbollah in Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, they try to assassinate US, and the US align leaders in the region. They tried to attack us in our territory via the attempted murder of a foreign diplomat.

And didn't Hezbollah literally kill hundreds of Jews in Argentina, what was that for?? Those jews weren't doing anything wrong they weren't in Israel, they weren't in the US, and yet Iran/Hezbollah still killed them because their government and conservative elite are racist fascist bigots. They are the most anti-Semitic government in the region full stop.

Edit: Also what are you proposing as a policy solution to end this hatred, Are you purposing we pull all troops out of the ME, weaken our allies in the region by not selling arms to them, let Hezbollah and Iran ran amok in the region. Will they stop hating Israel, and Sunni Muslims after we stop sanctioning them, and stop Shia proxy group attacks. My guess is no.

Iran should not be the hegemon in the Middle East, they are a fascist government like China.
On the other hand Jews are allowed to be jews in Iran while even during the Gulf war jewish US troops weren't allowed to pray on Saudi soil. That's how far reaching Saudi bigotry is.

This said, Iran is by no means an exemplary state. But how do you solve that? By further bullying them and turning them and their population even more against the rest of the world? Because that's what Trumpism did. It pushed a part of the population right into the conservative Islamist side. By allowing a well educated Iranian middle class to thrive you will effectively weaking the Islamist movement in Iran from the inside. And that's what the Iran deal would have done. Prevent Iran from having nukes while allowing its middle class, usually hostile towards the conservative Islamists, to grow. The potential cost? More money for Iran to spend on militias. Something other Islamic nations receiving ample support from the US do as well.
 
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Gordon_4

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Yes, and no. We need to sell arms to the Saudis so that they don't buy from other arms companies like Russia, Turkey, and China, except the F-35. We need to sell the F-35 to UAE to reward them for stopping the annexation of the west bank that Israel tried.

As for Yemen, the previous government was a flawed democracy this one is an Iranian-style Shia dictatorship I prefer the previous government over this one.

I know some people on the left like to suck up to Iran because of the logic the enemy of my enemy is my friends. But they are only marginally better than the Saudis, and not by much. They both suck. but it's always Saudi Arabia sucks, and never Iran sucks from the left.

Let's pretend we are a different person, let's pretend we are an American student/citizen with no anti-host country political activities. That student goes to Saudi Arabia, and visits some places, and doesn't die, and does not get tortured for being an American.

You visit Iran, you get beaten, and held hostage, and exchange years later in a prisoner swap. That's what happened to a Chinese-American student who was an American who listens to idiot naive western professors who told him the reason Iran hates us is because of the 1950s revolution. He went there for a project, and they arrested him and held him hostage.

The Ayatollahs which Reddit Left-Wingers and many progressives support hate you. At best they want a Shia-dominated region in the middle east from which to oppress Sunnis and other non-Shias, and at worst they want the world to be Muslim Shia, and for them to control the world. They are religious fascist bigots like the Christan evangelicals in America like The Saudi Regime, they are just better at it.

While I have no doubt there is a long list of reasons Iran is not fond of the United States, with some reasons being more legitimate than others, the 1950 Revolution is one that’s going to loom large. Fairly or not. But I also kind of doubt it’s the same people.
 

Silvanus

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Let's pretend we are a different person, let's pretend we are an American student/citizen with no anti-host country political activities.
No, let's not. If we're going to be passing judgement on whether or not our countries should be supporting an invasion, then let's not put ourselves in the shoes of some American student who has the option to stay safe from the whole thing. How about we put ourselves in the shoes of a civilian who actually lives in Yemen? Not a soldier, not a member of the Houthi movement; an unaffiliated civilian. The people most directly affected by this.

Intentionally targeted by the Saudi military, using American and British weaponry, despite having no military involvement themselves. How d'you think they feel about the American decision to assist that massacre?
 

Gergar12

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The British, and the Russians/Soviets started this by invading Iran in World War 2, not the US

Also if we stop selling arms to the Saudis, it would affect the balance of power in the region to favor Iran, and thus support Iranian Imperialism across the region, and shia massacring Sunni Muslims.

Also, I am not a liberal, I am a social democrat.

We tried building a middle class in China, but that backfired on the US.

The 1950 revolution benefit the Shia Mullahs, the Iranian people may dislike us for it but the Iranian leadership doesn't.

Let's put ourselves in the shoes of the Jews killed by Iran in Argentina, or the various Americans they have held hostage.
 
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Generals

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We tried building a middle class in China, but that backfired on the US.
How so? The middle class is still not entirely built in China. You still have a huge amount of (very) poor Chinese.
Additionally China isn't funding international terrorism or anything else that is being blamed on Iran. On the other hand the international community has tried to sanction the hell out of North Korea. It still has gotten nukes and it uses drug trade, illegal arms sales and hacking to get access to funds. How did that help international security?

But I would like to point we cannot simply compare different countries in totally different contexts and how certain diplomatic choices leading to certain outcomes in one will lead to the same in another. Iran is very different from China and it had a middle class desiring moderation and this was also reflected by the election of a more "moderate" president. It also doesn't have equally effective repressive and censoring tools as China to prevent every kind of freedom of speech and spread of "liberal" ideas.
 
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Gergar12

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How so? The middle class is still not entirely built in China. You still have a huge amount of (very) poor Chinese.
Additionally China isn't funding international terrorism or anything else that is being blamed on Iran. On the other hand the international community has tried to sanction the hell out of North Korea. It still has gotten nukes and it uses drug trade, illegal arms sales and hacking to get access to funds. How did that help international security?

But I would like to point we cannot simply compare different countries in totally different contexts and how certain diplomatic choices leading to certain outcomes in one will lead to the same in another. Iran is very different from China and it had a middle class desiring moderation and this was also reflected by the election of a more "moderate" president. It also doesn't have equally effective repressive and censoring tools as China to prevent every kind of freedom of speech and spread of "liberal" ideas.
Iran is controlled by the conservative guardian council, they control who gets to be the head of state/Supreme Leader, the president, and who gets to run in their legislature. Anyone liberal is not going to be in power period. Also, the moderate president has been waging a proxy war against our allies in the region like Israel in Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen. There is literally an Al Qaeda Office in Iran as we speak.


Also, we don't know if what Iran will do if we started trading with it, and increasing its GDP. They could go the more peaceful route, or they could increase their security apparatus, and increase funding to their various proxy groups in the region, and could even see it as a sign of weakness, and attack the US indirectly via a 9/11 style terrorist attack, so why take the risk.

As for North Korea, it's because China backs them up that we couldn't do anything about them, not because we sanctioned them, and they then started hating us.

As for China, they are the biggest systematic threat to US national security since the Soviet Union, that's what funding autocrats get you.

What the Biden admin is doing is simple. We won't make the first move unless they(Iran) move on their ballistic missile program which threatens allies in Europe like Poland, and stop their proxy groups from inflicting havoc on the middle east, and also getting the Saudis to stand down on their Sunni proxy groups as well.

Your idea is let's make the first move, and make concessions to the dictatorship of Iran, and lose leverage over them, and have to make the first concession to them for an Iran Deal which didn't work for North Korea either.
 
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