Biden's Executive Orders

TheMysteriousGX

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The British, and the Russians/Soviets started this by invading Iran in World War 2, not the US

Also if we stop selling arms to the Saudis, it would affect the balance of power in the region to favor Iran, and thus support Iranian Imperialism across the region, and shia massacring Sunni Muslims.

Also, I am not a liberal, I am a social democrat.
And that's why we need to sell weapons to an oppressive monarchy using them to inflict a genocide. Surely this will turn out differently from when we funded Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, or the overthrow of Libya. What's a few open air slave markets in the pursuit of freedom?
94DD981A-B94C-439D-9C98-5FB17CB860C6.jpeg
 

Agema

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Yes, and no. We need to sell arms to the Saudis so that they don't buy from other arms companies like Russia, Turkey, and China, except the F-35. We need to sell the F-35 to UAE to reward them for stopping the annexation of the west bank that Israel tried.
We sell them arms because selling them arms allows leverage and also generates profits both for our general enrichment, plenty of which goes to R&D to keep our own militaries economically viable and modern.

Having it's own defence industry should be a central aim of any independent power. After all, if a country relies on imports and its arms supplier can turn the tap off in the middle of a war, it's boned. It has the other advantage of much more freedom to ensure a country can design things to order a coherent, planned doctrine, rather than taking an "off the peg" approach which may force tactics to fit whatever mishmash of equipment happens to be available from other suppliers.

I do not have any fond sentiments towards Iran. But I also think countries like Yemen tend to be a clusterfuck where there is rarely a "good" or "bad" side. Whilst the unofficial Houthi slogan is "God is great, death to the US, death to Israel, curse the Jews, and victory for Islam" (they need to work on something more catchy), I'm willing to bet you those exact same sentiments predominate amongst their opponents, too.
 

Silvanus

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Let's put ourselves in the shoes of the Jews killed by Iran in Argentina, or the various Americans they have held hostage.
So people who aren't helped at all by monarchists murdering civilians in Yemen. Ok.
 

Gergar12

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International Relations isn't necessarily all about morality, if it was the EU would come out on top. It's about interests and ideology. The Iranians, Russians, and Chinese have radically different interests than the US and the EU. They also don't ideologically align with the US on universal values of human rights. Yet Progressives don't see it that way, it's all about morality to them, but they ignore Iranian morality because it doesn't conform to their priors bout the bad white or rich or western people who rule everything.

I want to live in a world where people aren't killed, arrested, beaten, tortured for being homosexual, believing in a different religion or no religion, having a different nationality, saying, writing, reading the wrong thing. Those all happen in Russia, Iran, and China. My interests as a human being are against this.

It's not Islam that's the problem, it's not even Sunni or Shia Islam that is the problem. It's governments who fund the radical extremists that are the problem. I have plenty of problems with the US, but on human rights, we agree. I have said numerous things about Trump, Biden, Hillary, Obama, Kerry, and Bush, and was I beaten, and tortured, or arrested, nope. Yet in Iran, if you say the wrong thing, write the wrong thing, or read the wrong thing, or simply believe in something different than what the ruling elite believe you will be punished.

Edit:

 
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TheMysteriousGX

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International Relations isn't necessarily all about morality, if it was the EU would come out on top. It's about interests and ideology. The Iranians, Russians, and Chinese have radically different interests than the US and the EU. They also don't ideologically align with the US on universal values of human rights. Yet Progressives don't see it that way, it's all about morality to them, but they ignore Iranian morality because it doesn't conform to their priors bout the bad white or rich or western people who rule everything.

I want to live in a world where people aren't killed, arrested, beaten, tortured for being homosexual, believing in a different religion or no religion, having a different nationality, saying, writing, reading the wrong thing. Those all happen in Russia, Iran, and China. My interests as a human being are against this.

It's not Islam that's the problem, it's not even Sunni or Shia Islam that is the problem. It's governments who fund the radical extremists that are the problem. I have plenty of problems with the US, but on human rights, we agree. I have said numerous things about Trump, Biden, Hillary, Obama, Kerry, and Bush, and was I beaten, and tortured, or arrested, nope. Yet in Iran, if you say the wrong thing, write the wrong thing, or read the wrong thing, or simply believe in something different than what the ruling elite believe you will be punished.

Edit:

So maybe we should stop funding and arming brutal regimes like Saudi Arabia, who do everything on that list you're bashing Iran for

I honestly don't see the difference besides a century of us fucking Iran over and them being mad about it.
 

Gergar12

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So maybe we should stop funding and arming brutal regimes like Saudi Arabia, who do everything on that list you're bashing Iran for

I honestly don't see the difference besides a century of us fucking Iran over and them being mad about it.
Short story: We will stop selling arms to the Saudis when Russia and China stop selling arms to the Iranians

Long story: We need to prioritize which bad actor the US goes after first, second, and third. If we started sanctioning everyone who was a jerk to their citizens like all dictatorships, and all flawed democracies or worst, we would piss off a large section of the world, and drive them to China.

We(the United States, and policymakers) prioritize in order of importance

1. Dictatorships, and flawed democracies that want to enslave their citizens, and the world(systemic threats) edit: Russia, and China

2. Dictatorships and flawed democracies that want to enslave their citizens, and part of the world(regional threats) Edit: Iran, and possibly others

3. Dictatorships, and flawed democracies that don't hate us, but are also jerks to part of the world(Saudis, and likely many others)

4. Islationaist dictatorships

5. All other flawed democracies

6. No more human rights abuses

I suspect this has been the policy since the 1990s after the fall of the USSR.

It's a sound policy, and I agree with it, it doesn't mean we invade everyone, but we will deal with them eventually if they are human rights abusers.
 

Seanchaidh

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It's a sound policy, and I agree with it, it doesn't mean we invade everyone, but we will deal with them eventually if they are human rights abusers.
We'll be the last human rights abuser standing
 

Gordon_4

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Short story: We will stop selling arms to the Saudis when Russia and China stop selling arms to the Iranians

Long story: We need to prioritize which bad actor the US goes after first, second, and third. If we started sanctioning everyone who was a jerk to their citizens like all dictatorships, and all flawed democracies or worst, we would piss off a large section of the world, and drive them to China.

We(the United States, and policymakers) prioritize in order of importance

1. Dictatorships, and flawed democracies that want to enslave their citizens, and the world(systemic threats) edit: Russia, and China

2. Dictatorships and flawed democracies that want to enslave their citizens, and part of the world(regional threats) Edit: Iran, and possibly others

3. Dictatorships, and flawed democracies that don't hate us, but are also jerks to part of the world(Saudis, and likely many others)

4. Islationaist dictatorships

5. All other flawed democracies

6. No more human rights abuses

I suspect this has been the policy since the 1990s after the fall of the USSR.

It's a sound policy, and I agree with it, it doesn't mean we invade everyone, but we will deal with them eventually if they are human rights abusers.
Somebody needs to explain to you the concept of realpolitik.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Short story: We will stop selling arms to the Saudis when Russia and China stop selling arms to the Iranians

Long story: We need to prioritize which bad actor the US goes after first, second, and third. If we started sanctioning everyone who was a jerk to their citizens like all dictatorships, and all flawed democracies or worst, we would piss off a large section of the world, and drive them to China.

We(the United States, and policymakers) prioritize in order of importance

1. Dictatorships, and flawed democracies that want to enslave their citizens, and the world(systemic threats) edit: Russia, and China

2. Dictatorships and flawed democracies that want to enslave their citizens, and part of the world(regional threats) Edit: Iran, and possibly others

3. Dictatorships, and flawed democracies that don't hate us, but are also jerks to part of the world(Saudis, and likely many others)

4. Islationaist dictatorships

5. All other flawed democracies

6. No more human rights abuses

I suspect this has been the policy since the 1990s after the fall of the USSR.

It's a sound policy, and I agree with it, it doesn't mean we invade everyone, but we will deal with them eventually if they are human rights abusers.
Oh yeah, it's going fucking great. Hey, what's your bet which group of people are we're training and arming that's going to turn on us next? Bonus points if we betray them first
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Oh yeah, it's going fucking great. Hey, what's your bet which group of people are we're training and arming that's going to turn on us next? Bonus points if we betray them first
The only major reason the USA cares about the Middle East is oil. If the USA could wean itself off heavy oil dependency, it would probably just let go of Middle Eastern interference to a large degree.

However, it seems to me that many Americans want the paradox of both remaining highly dependent on oil and not having to bother about the global oil supply. Again, here there is a hopeless failure of joined-up thinking in public political debate. But then, the USA is a place where a load of natural gas power plants freeze and stop working, and the politicians blame the power crisis on wind turbines because the most important thing is defending the burning of hydrocarbons, even when it's rubbish.
 
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Silvanus

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I have plenty of problems with the US, but on human rights, we agree. I have said numerous things about Trump, Biden, Hillary, Obama, Kerry, and Bush, and was I beaten, and tortured, or arrested, nope.
You weren't, no. Other people were, in case you were unaware.

Yet in Iran, if you say the wrong thing, write the wrong thing, or read the wrong thing, or simply believe in something different than what the ruling elite believe you will be punished.
This continues to not be a valid justification for slaughtering unaffiliated civilians.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Yet in Iran, if you say the wrong thing, write the wrong thing, or read the wrong thing, or simply believe in something different than what the ruling elite believe you will be punished.
Will be? Or can be?

In any case, the United States is still trying to extradite Julian Assange for committing a journalism. And there are a bunch of protest leaders that keep dying under very suspect circumstances, or who are arrested on bogus charges.

edit:

also this
 
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Thaluikhain

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After all, if a country relies on imports and its arms supplier can turn the tap off in the middle of a war, it's boned.
Well...yes...but should the need arise for a lot of military hardware at short notice, can a country expect to get it either way? Certain materiel, yes, but the procurement times for a lot of things is quite long, either for people who make it themselves or who buy it from those that do. I can't think of a modern conflict off the top of my head where this was a factor, baring the Falklands, but the Argentians were looking to get hold of existing missiles, not wait for them to be built.
 

Avnger

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Oh yeah, it's going fucking great. Hey, what's your bet which group of people are we're training and arming that's going to turn on us next? Bonus points if we betray them first
Pretty sure the Kurds have dibs based on the shitshow in Syria and Iraq.
 

Seanchaidh

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Well...yes...but should the need arise for a lot of military hardware at short notice, can a country expect to get it either way? Certain materiel, yes, but the procurement times for a lot of things is quite long, either for people who make it themselves or who buy it from those that do. I can't think of a modern conflict off the top of my head where this was a factor, baring the Falklands, but the Argentians were looking to get hold of existing missiles, not wait for them to be built.
I don't know anything about the logistical situation in the Iran-Iraq war (aside from the fact that the United States armed both sides), but it was certainly a long enough war for the production and acquisition of materiel after the start of the conflict to be important.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Will be? Or can be?

In any case, the United States is still trying to extradite Julian Assange for committing a journalism. And there are a bunch of protest leaders that keep dying under very suspect circumstances, or who are arrested on bogus charges.

edit:

also this
Seems like something that should have its own thread.
 

Gergar12

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Somebody needs to explain to you the concept of realpolitik.
Funny most people here think I am too heartless vs too pragmatic.

We'll be the last human rights abuser standing
I would rather it be that than China, Russia, and or Iran winning.

Oh yeah, it's going fucking great. Hey, what's your bet which group of people are we're training and arming that's going to turn on us next? Bonus points if we betray them first
We are not training anyone, we will sanction the living crap out of them if they are against US interests, or seek to supply our enemies with oil, case in point Iran, Russia with China. Also, invasions are too costly as well.

Will be? Or can be?

In any case, the United States is still trying to extradite Julian Assange for committing a journalism. And there are a bunch of protest leaders that keep dying under very suspect circumstances, or who are arrested on bogus charges.

edit:

also this
He stole classified US intelligence and is Putin/Trump lover. If I stole how the US finds terrorist cells in the Middle East, I should be arrested as well.


Also, none of you care what Iran, Russia. and China is doing because they are 90% of the reason why the US is doing so-called bad things so we don't let in a 1984 hellscape ruled by autocrats. Most of you guys seem to have a selective judgment about which human rights you guys highlight, and which ones you don't care about case in point Iran.
 

Gordon_4

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Funny most people here think I am too heartless vs too pragmatic.



I would rather it be that than China, Russia, and or Iran winning.



We are not training anyone, we will sanction the living crap out of them if they are against US interests, or seek to supply our enemies with oil, case in point Iran, Russia with China. Also, invasions are too costly as well.



He stole classified US intelligence and is Putin/Trump lover. If I stole how the US finds terrorist cells in the Middle East, I should be arrested as well.


Also, none of you care what Iran, Russia. and China is doing because they are 90% of the reason why the US is doing so-called bad things so we don't let in a 1984 hellscape ruled by autocrats. Most of you guys seem to have a selective judgment about which human rights you guys highlight, and which ones you don't care about case in point Iran.
No it’s just most cultures are extremely resistant to change enforced by outsiders. Even positive ones. As an example, most (but not all) Australians consider the firearm law changes in the wake of Port Arthur to be sensible and progressive after the massacre. In the United States they were grossly misrepresented if not outright lied about by the NRA and friendly publications. Now if Australia tried to pressure the United States - in some alternate reality where we could do that realistically - to enact the same laws or risk having trade cut off, only the most ardent fringe elements of the Gun Control lobby would consider it good and everyone else would consider it an inexcusable imposition against their sovereignty and react accordingly.

I do not argue that Iran, China, Russia commit human rights abuses. But sovereignty is a thing; and unless that change comes from within it will not stick. And you need to consider that for soft to medium power line sanctions to work, America must have something all three want and refuse to give them. And if that doesn’t work depending on how hardcore your rhetoric is, you are left with two positions if they continue on their merry way: negotiating or hard power. And give the big three you mention will not budge on certain shit, realistically we’re back to Gunboat Diplomacy. Which the US could do; it has the force projection and the manpower. But after Hiroshima we were through the looking glass and frankly I’d rather not LARP Fallout 4 or On The Beaches because of two powers coming to blows.