Biggest plot holes in games

AMMO Kid

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Any and every Resident Evil game. Remind me how was Umbrella trying to turn a profit by turning everybody into zombies, again? No, I know - the zombies are by-products. By-products of what? The Tyrant? So zombies are by-products of bigger zombies? And they're selling them rather than selling cheaper, easier, more practical means of destruction? Where do they get their funding from (or their credibility), considering they've never managed to make a single successful sale? How many times has Umbrella been shut down, anyway? How come the Raccoon thing takes place as early as RE1 (or Zero), Umbrella is shut down by RE4, but then we're by RE6 and the whole thing has managed to remain a secret? Also - trying to cover up a zombie apocalypse with another zombie apocalypse? You wanna take down the president but rather than simply shooting him you seek to destroy the world? The list goes on...
EXACTLY. Nothing requiring motivation in the Resident Evil universe makes any sense whatsoever!
 

Quantumsheep

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AMMO Kid said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Any and every Resident Evil game. Remind me how was Umbrella trying to turn a profit by turning everybody into zombies, again? No, I know - the zombies are by-products. By-products of what? The Tyrant? So zombies are by-products of bigger zombies? And they're selling them rather than selling cheaper, easier, more practical means of destruction? Where do they get their funding from (or their credibility), considering they've never managed to make a single successful sale? How many times has Umbrella been shut down, anyway? How come the Raccoon thing takes place as early as RE1 (or Zero), Umbrella is shut down by RE4, but then we're by RE6 and the whole thing has managed to remain a secret? Also - trying to cover up a zombie apocalypse with another zombie apocalypse? You wanna take down the president but rather than simply shooting him you seek to destroy the world? The list goes on...
EXACTLY. Nothing requiring motivation in the Resident Evil universe makes any sense whatsoever!
Lucky Godzilla said:
Quantumsheep said:
Lucky Godzilla said:
Quantumsheep said:
wolf thing said:
Lucky Godzilla said:
wolf thing said:
Rancid0ffspring said:
wolf thing said:
halo 4, how did chief and cortana know who the didact was? this with the bad plot and writting in the game is what made its story total shite, it makes no sense, chief was in crystaisis for years and we had never met a forerunner before and it doesnt help that no one in the story asks any question of anykind about the forerunners. just a terrible story.
I did question this at first, on my second play through I noticed how they knew his name.

When The Didact comes out of his Cryptum, all of The Covenenant reverently say "Didact" while bowing down.

I'm not making excuses for poor story telling here, but reading the books gives much more insight into the Didact's motives.
i have read two of the books, fall of reach and ghost of onxys and they gave little on the forerunners. I dont think i should have to read the books to fully understand a story, the books and the games are two separate thing and should have self contained story's, its fine for them to both refrence each other or share characters and themes but they should have separate plots. no one should have to read books (which are very average and derivative of other, better speculative fiction) to fully understand a story in a game, if they have they have failed as story tells.

for what you have said, that is still not a reason why they would have known who and what a didact was, even if they knew what it was called they have no way of knowing what the didact did or use to do on the rings, in good speculative fiction the main characters would have asked questions, talked or speculated on what the didact was, this could all have been done as battle chatter in gameplay and would have solved one of the larger issues with the game.

there would still be the problem of the spartan 4s and there unexplained apperanse. and the lack of depth in chiefs and cortanas relationship.
The problem isn't just Cheif and Cortana's knowledge of the Diadect, it's the Diadect and his motivations in general. The flood is defeated, the forerunners are practically extinct, humanity has not shown any undue aggression to him, yet he immediately gets back on the genocide bandwagon. It's like if FDR came back to life and ordered an invasion of Germany because they were our enemies in WWII, it's stupid.
don't get me wrong there are many problem in the game, but the one i felt that having chief an almost non entity in the story was the game biggest crime. but you are right the didact in general was a terrible and unnecessary part of the game. he lacked clear motives and only interacted with player twice during a cutsence, he also lack any character development.
Guys, I agree that Halo 4's story sucked for all kinds of reasons, but the Didact's motivation was made perfectly clear. He doesn't want humanity running the universe, because he's a racist who thinks only Forerunners should do that. Did none of you catch all his ranting about the Mantle of Responsibility? Silly motivation, but it was there.

My two big problems with Halo 4's story (well, biggest) are A. Is the Covenant-Human War on again, or what? Because that is important shit to know, with all kinds of huge in-universe implications, and as far as I can tell no-one ever says who this faction they're fighting is, or how powerful they are, or how the revelation of these Forerunners might affect relations with the other alien species who aren't a part of this (apparently) extremist faction...I could go on, but basically, none of this is addressed, and it's been driving me crazy. And B. Why the hell couldn't the Forerunners have used the Composer against the Flood? It turns organic matter into digital matter, and can somehow be calibrated so that it only takes very specific targets, with no collateral damage whatsoever. It's the perfect weapon against them. Screw immortality, screw the Halos, they should have built fleets of Composers and wiped them out forever, because they're better in every conceivable way. The only possible flaw I can see in this plan is that the Librarian (somehow) made Chief immune to this process that disintegrates living tissue through "genetic manipulation", and if there's anything the Flood are good at, it's genetic manipulation. But despite that incredibly easy out, the possibility is never brought up by anyone.
I never said he lacked motivation, just that his justification was monumentally stupid. These aren't even the same humans he fought thousands of years ago, yet we are supposed to swallow that his asinine grudge provides sufficient motivation for mass genocide. Though you do make a good point, if the composer is effectively a gigantic death laser of doom that instantly dissolves biological matter, why wouldn't it work on the flood? While we are on the topic of the composer, why did the Diadect need a constant supply of humans to create Promethians? Did they not have hard drives or anything, no way to, I don't know, STORE data? I mean, look at the Prometheans, they aren't made biological material, so you obviously don't need a fresh supply of human. On a side note, does anyone find the ending where Cortana "shields" Chief illogical. He was right on top of the goddamn nuke, had she shielded him like she did, it would only serve to contain the blast in that immediate area, leaving the composer intact and reducing cheif to ash.
Racism is always an illogical motivation, but there's no reason it can't be done well. He doesn't believe that humans (the species in general, which apparently has not significantly changed since his time) are capable of ruling the universe without fucking it up. Not that the game ever makes this point, but if one looks at Earth today, he has a good point there. Humanity has a lot of flaws, and while that's certainly true of the Forerunners, being blind to one's faults is a perfectly acceptable motivation. We can argue back and forth over whether it's a good motivation or not (I think average at absolute best, given that it fits pretty well into the rest of the game's stupid plot, and is really just underdeveloped, as are all the characters) but the motive exists, and therefore isn't a plothole. On the nuke: I had no fucking idea how that worked, and assumed I must have missed something important, because I have no idea how she shielded him from a point-blank range nuclear explosion. And, did he need a constant supply of humans? I don't recall the logistics of that ever being addressed at all. Which is for the best, because one really has to wonder why they couldn't just use AIs instead of human minds which they somehow brainwashed. (Because they had AIs, called ancillas, but they were AIs.)
Moral of the story, all justification for any event that occurs in halo 4 when put under scrutiny are kind of dumb
Pretty much. I laughed when Lasky walked up to Chief and said "You know, I was sent down here with orders to stop you from leaving." Alone. To stop the seven foot tall super-soldier in shielded power armour. Who can punch eight foot tall monkey monsters to death and move at speeds that would shatter a normal human's bones. Either Lasky is secretly the ultimate badass of the Halo universe or Del Rio REALLY wanted him dead.
 

M-E-D The Poet

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Noelveiga said:
Guys? Guys, look up what a plot hole is, then post.

It's not "characters made a decision that seems dumb or weird" and it's not "something that could have been explained but was left vague". Things that are not plot holes include:

In The Walking Dead
... if you choose not to loot the car, the owner still stalks and kidnaps Clem to punish Lee despite Kenny having a kid and never even questioning whether to steal the food.

That's not a plot hole, it's a convenient characterization inconsistency. If the crazy guy decides to go after Lee, that's what he does, regardless of whether it makes the most sense, it's not logically impossible for it to happen.

Or in Arkham City
Strange threatening to reveal Batman's identity if he doesn't play along but never doing so despite being aware of his escape. Again, that's just something inconsistent the character chooses to do, not a logical impossibility.

Sheesh.

Real plot holes in games off the top of my head? Hm. Let's see... I'm coming up empty. I guess games tend to have simple plots, so it's relatively easy to keep them straight. There must be some, though...
I think real plotholes in games usually come down to : I've had the means the opportunity the intent to kill this bloke but I never do and then whine about how he's killing whatever he's killing even though I had the means to stop him all along.

Because in the end it then comes down to "am I prepared for the big fight" and some games allow you to be prepared for it ages before you actually get there but never allow you to finish it off.
 

sXeth

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Exius Xavarus said:
Maybe it's not necessarily a plot hole, but I am led to believe that the romances in Dragon's Dogma take place apart from the main game.

Aelinore is the Duke's wife. You go into her room, the duke arrives and starts choking her. You pop out of hiding and the Duke has you thrown into the dungeon and lashed to bits. Aelinore frees you and she's sent to the Blighted Manse. Here's the problem: The Duke doesn't even say anything about you ever meeting with Aelinore and he even gives you gifts and money just before he sends you to the Greatwall! You'd think that his wife having an affair with you is something that he wouldn't so easily forget, but nooo. It's never once mentioned anywhere.
The Duke's not exactly in his right mind at the time. And once you get back out into the world, trying to take out the Jesus-expy wouldn't go over too well with the public (Who're already half-revolting, half joining cults, etc).

What I never got was the Pawn Legion, who're explicitly loyal to you (Earlier on Mercedes even mentions she couldn't command them at the camp), and massively outnumber the guards on the streets of Gran Soren, don't interfere in the chase that has you fall into the Everfall.
 
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wolf thing said:
halo 4, how did chief and cortana know who the didact was? this with the bad plot and writting in the game is what made its story total shite, it makes no sense, chief was in crystaisis for years and we had never met a forerunner before and it doesnt help that no one in the story asks any question of anykind about the forerunners. just a terrible story.
It could be that the Chief read the terminals in Halo 3, which, are supposed (never read them myself) to tell stories of the Didact and Librarian, and I'm sure there was something in the books about it, but I could be wrong.
 

Exius Xavarus

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Seth Carter said:
Exius Xavarus said:
Maybe it's not necessarily a plot hole, but I am led to believe that the romances in Dragon's Dogma take place apart from the main game.

Aelinore is the Duke's wife. You go into her room, the duke arrives and starts choking her. You pop out of hiding and the Duke has you thrown into the dungeon and lashed to bits. Aelinore frees you and she's sent to the Blighted Manse. Here's the problem: The Duke doesn't even say anything about you ever meeting with Aelinore and he even gives you gifts and money just before he sends you to the Greatwall! You'd think that his wife having an affair with you is something that he wouldn't so easily forget, but nooo. It's never once mentioned anywhere.
The Duke's not exactly in his right mind at the time. And once you get back out into the world, trying to take out the Jesus-expy wouldn't go over too well with the public (Who're already half-revolting, half joining cults, etc).

What I never got was the Pawn Legion, who're explicitly loyal to you (Earlier on Mercedes even mentions she couldn't command them at the camp), and massively outnumber the guards on the streets of Gran Soren, don't interfere in the chase that has you fall into the Everfall.
The Duke does regain his senses just before the fact, though. He wasn't in his right mind at the start, but what bothered me was the way he actually came to after you popped out from hiding. Dazed and disoriented, yes, but he was well aware you were there and who you were. Also, I'm having a hard time understanding what this "Jesus-expy" is. x_x

And that also made no sense, that the Pawns were nowhere to be found while you were being chased. Although I'm sure a lot of them were probably busy taking care of things down below. But there is also the fact that Pawns do not(and cannot) act on their own. They were never commanded to come to your aid, so they never did. Chief Adaro explained at the beginning that Pawns would sit and rot away where they stand unless commanded otherwise.
 

wolf thing

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The Elephant of Lies said:
wolf thing said:
halo 4, how did chief and cortana know who the didact was? this with the bad plot and writting in the game is what made its story total shite, it makes no sense, chief was in crystaisis for years and we had never met a forerunner before and it doesnt help that no one in the story asks any question of anykind about the forerunners. just a terrible story.
It could be that the Chief read the terminals in Halo 3, which, are supposed (never read them myself) to tell stories of the Didact and Librarian, and I'm sure there was something in the books about it, but I could be wrong.
i never read the terminals because they were an optional extra which were hidden for the player, you never hide story content from the player ever. so i discount it and i should also not have to read a below average book to enjoy the story in the game.
 

wolf thing

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Quantumsheep said:
wolf thing said:
Lucky Godzilla said:
wolf thing said:
Rancid0ffspring said:
wolf thing said:
halo 4, how did chief and cortana know who the didact was? this with the bad plot and writting in the game is what made its story total shite, it makes no sense, chief was in crystaisis for years and we had never met a forerunner before and it doesnt help that no one in the story asks any question of anykind about the forerunners. just a terrible story.
I did question this at first, on my second play through I noticed how they knew his name.

When The Didact comes out of his Cryptum, all of The Covenenant reverently say "Didact" while bowing down.

I'm not making excuses for poor story telling here, but reading the books gives much more insight into the Didact's motives.
i have read two of the books, fall of reach and ghost of onxys and they gave little on the forerunners. I dont think i should have to read the books to fully understand a story, the books and the games are two separate thing and should have self contained story's, its fine for them to both refrence each other or share characters and themes but they should have separate plots. no one should have to read books (which are very average and derivative of other, better speculative fiction) to fully understand a story in a game, if they have they have failed as story tells.

for what you have said, that is still not a reason why they would have known who and what a didact was, even if they knew what it was called they have no way of knowing what the didact did or use to do on the rings, in good speculative fiction the main characters would have asked questions, talked or speculated on what the didact was, this could all have been done as battle chatter in gameplay and would have solved one of the larger issues with the game.

there would still be the problem of the spartan 4s and there unexplained apperanse. and the lack of depth in chiefs and cortanas relationship.
The problem isn't just Cheif and Cortana's knowledge of the Diadect, it's the Diadect and his motivations in general. The flood is defeated, the forerunners are practically extinct, humanity has not shown any undue aggression to him, yet he immediately gets back on the genocide bandwagon. It's like if FDR came back to life and ordered an invasion of Germany because they were our enemies in WWII, it's stupid.
don't get me wrong there are many problem in the game, but the one i felt that having chief an almost non entity in the story was the game biggest crime. but you are right the didact in general was a terrible and unnecessary part of the game. he lacked clear motives and only interacted with player twice during a cutsence, he also lack any character development.
Guys, I agree that Halo 4's story sucked for all kinds of reasons, but the Didact's motivation was made perfectly clear. He doesn't want humanity running the universe, because he's a racist who thinks only Forerunners should do that. Did none of you catch all his ranting about the Mantle of Responsibility? Silly motivation, but it was there.

My two big problems with Halo 4's story (well, biggest) are A. Is the Covenant-Human War on again, or what? Because that is important shit to know, with all kinds of huge in-universe implications, and as far as I can tell no-one ever says who this faction they're fighting is, or how powerful they are, or how the revelation of these Forerunners might affect relations with the other alien species who aren't a part of this (apparently) extremist faction...I could go on, but basically, none of this is addressed, and it's been driving me crazy. And B. Why the hell couldn't the Forerunners have used the Composer against the Flood? It turns organic matter into digital matter, and can somehow be calibrated so that it only takes very specific targets, with no collateral damage whatsoever. It's the perfect weapon against them. Screw immortality, screw the Halos, they should have built fleets of Composers and wiped them out forever, because they're better in every conceivable way. The only possible flaw I can see in this plan is that the Librarian (somehow) made Chief immune to this process that disintegrates living tissue through "genetic manipulation", and if there's anything the Flood are good at, it's genetic manipulation. But despite that incredibly easy out, the possibility is never brought up by anyone.
i disagree i felt the motives werent well flushed out and because they were tied in with the stupid ancient humans thing i dont think it came together very well.

but your two point are right, the covenant war pushed to a side story and never addressed, they probably did it have a main stay enemy back. it made little sense because the elites left the covenant and renounce there religion and went home, we never saw any elite still fighting the with the covenant like religious extremist, they all left and fought with the play in halo 3.
I found the Composer thing really poor over all, it was just a plot devise to make the player do stuff and i felt its use was not defined, in the flash back of the ancient human it turned them into promethones (how and why we dont know, because it is near impossible to combined machinery and human parta through the air like that) but when he used it on the human science base they all died. the librarian was shit and under developed, it was the very definition if a deus ex machina, a god character descends down from the sky to deliver plot explanations.

good points well made
 

Iron Criterion

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Devoneaux said:
TheVampwizimp said:
Devoneaux said:
TheVampwizimp said:
Okay, possible spoilers for ME3 in here.
1) Yeah, that is a bit odd. Cerberus did have at least one Kodiak shuttle to pick up Dr. Eva with the Crucible info, but it makes little sense that they would use such a weak ship to escape from the reapers and any Alliance vessels around Mars. Still, not much of a plot hole, just an odd decision on Cerberus's part that could easily have a better explanation.

2) That is not a plot hole, Vega is simply stationed at the Alliance headquarters where Shepard is being kept. They've been palling around for six months, you just don't see it because that would be pointless. You just have to pay attention.

3) They leave the building through the window because the huge desk the Alliance Admirals or whoever they were at the beginning is blocking the exit. Every structure they come to after this is trashed, so rooftop climbing is probably the best option. Again, not a plot hole, just maybe an odd decision.

4) The geth may be machines, but they still need a constant flow of resources to survive. Rannoch is a valuable source of all kinds of materials, and they had already lost all the other territory they held. They decided to make a stand rather than become a wandering nomad race like they had forced the quarians to be. And they were doing pretty well until Shepard came in and screwed with their reaper code. Yet another example of "not a plot hole, but a rather easily explained detail that is hardly important anyway."
What else you got?
I'll concede to the first two not being plot holes (But they are still sloppy writing) however:

3: the desk shatters as it hits the wall, it's hard to see but it is what happens.

4: Again, Geth are hyper logical machines, the geth don't have that concept of "This is my home I will die defending it!" they have a concept of "The logistical value of this planet is equal to or greater than the combined value of our entire species, apparantly." And even if this were the case, why is it that the good geth never reach out and try to make nice with everyone else? Why not go directly to the council races and say "Help stop this war for us and we'll help you with the reapers?" I'm not saying this would work, but the fact that they never ever try this is dumb.
Ok, at this point I will have to take your word on the desk shattering. Still, I can assume that Anderson checked that escape route while Shepard was momentarily dazed after the explosion and decided it was blocked or otherwise unsuitable for use. Maybe the stairs were on fire. Point is, there are explanations, you don't have to immediately jump to the conclusion that it is an irredeemable mistake.
Okay I know there is more but this one in particular caught my attention.

Part of the job of a writer is to explain not just what the hero(s) are doing, but why. If the audience has to make assumptions on behalf of the story to cover a plot hole then the story is sloppy. What is particularly irritating about this is that the fix is incredibly simple. All we needed was one scene where Anderson goes "Damn, the door's jammed. We'll have to find another way." But because this is Mac Walters we're talking about, attention to details like this is beyond him.
No you're wrong. Exposition IS bad writing. A good writer will make it obviously what the protagonist is doing, and why through their actions; they shouldn't need to rely on throwaway dialogue.
 

bug_of_war

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IronMit said:
Mass effect 3..from the start.. after all the advantaged we have amassed & learnt from ME1 about the reapers, we still need a contrived macguffin/deus ex machina (depending on how you look at it)
advantages include:
2000 year delay allowing everyone to advance
reverse engineered sovereign weapons
control of relays
control of citadel
no surprise attack (they somehow managed to make ME3 a kind of surprise attack anyway)
More diverse aliens thanks to prothean intervention (protheans downfall was lack of diversity)



Dishonoured..not a plot hole but limited mechanic

how is me killing people increasing rats significantly?i'm just one man and the city is full of crime and authorities killing casually. Does my killing make that much of a difference?
Increased guards and rats (if we must keep the rats) should be 2 different mechanics..especially since i can kill someone and make them explode into dust. or kill weepers that rats don't feed on and authorities wouldn't care about.
Weird mechanic
Um, about the ME3 thing you're talking about (I'm assuming the crucible is what you're refering to as the macguffin/DEM), it isn't a macguffin. Macguffins are objects/things that drive the plot of the story, but have no real overall effect on the plot. The Crucible can seem to be a macguffin, but the fact that you use it in the end cancels it out. Similar reasoning goes for the Deus Ex Machina idea, the fact that the crucible is introduced at the start of the game, we are told that it will stop the Reapers somehow, and that technically the space child IS the crucible/citadel hybrid, it negates the idea that it is a Deus Ex Machina.

I'm also confused where you're getting the idea that the present cycles species had 2000 years to prepare for the Reapers. Would you be able to explain to me a little more what you meant by that? As for the reverse engineering of Soverign's weapons, the game made it clear that most of the debris was lost, stolen, destroyed or simply thrown away due to The Illusive Man, the Council being complete idiots, and random scavengers. We also know that even dead Reapers can still influence and indoctrinate organics so there really wasn't anyway to reverse engineer the highly advanced weapons. Your other points are quite reasonable though, as it is wierd how huge squid robots somehow just have super fast engines etc etc.

I agree with you about Dishonoured, it's so annoying that killing a few guards and your target increases the population of rats and those infected people. Also, another thing that bugged me about Dishonoured is the fact that EVERYONE treats you like a horrible person for killing people who were going to kill you due to their own schemes. When the tagline of the game is "REVENGE SOLVES EVERYTHING", I don't expect the game to turn around and call me a dick for taking revenge the good old fashion way of just up and murdering the bastards. I mean honestly, it's wierd that I'm considered a saint for [spoilers] Branding a guys face making him forever unable to communicate with anyone which eventually leads to him catching a horrific plague, cutting two brother's tongues out and shaving them to then proceed to make them live the rest of the days as unpaid slave miners [/spoilers] But I kill a guy by shooting him in the face and all of a sudden I'm an evil untrustworthy assassin working for a tyrant queen. STUFF YOU DISHONOURED!
 

IronMit

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bug_of_war said:
Um, about the ME3 thing you're talking about (I'm assuming the crucible is what you're refering to as the macguffin/DEM), it isn't a macguffin. Macguffins are objects/things that drive the plot of the story, but have no real overall effect on the plot. The Crucible can seem to be a macguffin, but the fact that you use it in the end cancels it out. Similar reasoning goes for the Deus Ex Machina idea, the fact that the crucible is introduced at the start of the game, we are told that it will stop the Reapers somehow, and that technically the space child IS the crucible/citadel hybrid, it negates the idea that it is a Deus Ex Machina.

I'm also confused where you're getting the idea that the present cycles species had 2000 years to prepare for the Reapers. Would you be able to explain to me a little more what you meant by that? As for the reverse engineering of Soverign's weapons, the game made it clear that most of the debris was lost, stolen, destroyed or simply thrown away due to The Illusive Man, the Council being complete idiots, and random scavengers. We also know that even dead Reapers can still influence and indoctrinate organics so there really wasn't anyway to reverse engineer the highly advanced weapons. Your other points are quite reasonable though, as it is wierd how huge squid robots somehow just have super fast engines etc etc.
hmmm the plot did revolve around the crucible... though it was actually part of the story..not sure if it means it cancels it out but I see your point.
Deus ex machina is also down to interpretation...it was introduced at the start of ME3 but one could still interpret it as something not hinted at or forshadowed that came up at the 3rd act of the trilogy. An example would be if a new technology or material of interest not hinted at appeared in the 3rd movie of back to the future or in the return of the jedi- Like if there was no deathstar or mention of a deathstar in 'A new hope' but at the start of 'return of the jedi' someone said.. 'we got to stop the deathstar, they are making one you know!'. Maybe it doesn't fall under macguffin or deus ex machina but there would be a very poor story telling element there. i don't know what it would be defined as? contrived? maybe that's too strong a word

2000 years because that's when the rachni wars were.
The rachni queen said they were influenced by the reapers, hence went to war.
Sovereign was coincidently flying around trying to figure out how to open the citadel relay
So he either just started a war for fun or common sense dictates he was trying to open the relay after Plan A failed. (This isn't my theory I just made up, it's mainstream from all the quotes and fully accepted on BSN)

The codex states thianx cannons were made by reverse engineering sovereign parts.
The 'random scavengers' story element was just made to justify the council and most other people still not taking the reaper threat seriously..(or shepard would just tell Illusive man to get stuffed and rejoin the Alliance)..fair enough.

The BSN forums were rife with threads asking why they spent all those resources on a crucible device they were unsure about, when they could of equipped everything with thianx cannons. This feeds into the annoyance the reapers were made extra powerful to justify the crucible so they could ignore the lore


I forgot to add there is also a whole new race (humans) and possibly the geth army for the reapers to contend against.
The krogan appeared during the rachni wars...salarians lifted them up from their relatively primitive state to fight.

So to these advantages against the reapers:

2000 year delay allowing everyone to advance
reverse engineered sovereign weapons (thianx cannons)
control of relays
control of citadel
no surprise attack (even though they still somehow managed to make ME3 a kind of surprise attack anyway)

add 3 new powerful races to contend with -humans, krogan, possibly geth -that can change sides(and these aren't crappy ones like volous and hanar)

I'm not saying the reapers would be a walkover ....but the 'there's no way to win conventionally' line Hackket keeps brainwashing you with, whilst purposely never mentioning any of the major advantages I listed above was so so poor

The explanation of Hackett getting his arse kicked in minutes and running away to regroup whilst the Turian's were holding out throughout 2/3's of the game was also laughable, even if they were losing very very slowly
 

bug_of_war

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IronMit said:
hmmm the plot did revolve around the crucible... though it was actually part of the story..not sure if it means it cancels it out but I see your point.
Deus ex machina is also down to interpretation...it was introduced at the start of ME3 but one could still interpret it as something not hinted at or forshadowed that came up at the 3rd act of the trilogy. An example would be if a new technology or material of interest not hinted at appeared in the 3rd movie of back to the future or in the return of the jedi- Like if there was no deathstar or mention of a deathstar in 'A new hope' but at the start of 'return of the jedi' someone said.. 'we got to stop the deathstar, they are making one you know!'. Maybe it doesn't fall under macguffin or deus ex machina but there would be a very poor story telling element there. i don't know what it would be defined as? contrived? maybe that's too strong a word

2000 years because that's when the rachni wars were.
The rachni queen said they were influenced by the reapers, hence went to war.
Sovereign was coincidently flying around trying to figure out how to open the citadel relay
So he either just started a war for fun or common sense dictates he was trying to open the relay after Plan A failed. (This isn't my theory I just made up, it's mainstream from all the quotes and fully accepted on BSN)

The codex states thianx cannons were made by reverse engineering sovereign parts.
The 'random scavengers' story element was just made to justify the council and most other people still not taking the reaper threat seriously..(or shepard would just tell Illusive man to get stuffed and rejoin the Alliance)..fair enough.

The BSN forums were rife with threads asking why they spent all those resources on a crucible device they were unsure about, when they could of equipped everything with thianx cannons. This feeds into the annoyance the reapers were made extra powerful to justify the crucible so they could ignore the lore


I forgot to add there is also a whole new race (humans) and possibly the geth army for the reapers to contend against.
The krogan appeared during the rachni wars...salarians lifted them up from their relatively primitive state to fight.

So to these advantages against the reapers:

2000 year delay allowing everyone to advance
reverse engineered sovereign weapons (thianx cannons)
control of relays
control of citadel
no surprise attack (even though they still somehow managed to make ME3 a kind of surprise attack anyway)

add 3 new powerful races to contend with -humans, krogan, possibly geth -that can change sides(and these aren't crappy ones like volous and hanar)
Cool, thanks for explaining that to me. I think contrived is the right word for it, and I can see how as ME3 was technically the third act, it can be seen as being introduced too late into the series. I still however feel that the story was pretty tight in terms of the Reapers not being considered a threat. As far as I am aware, other than the Rachnai, little to no other organics knew of Soverign's patrolling around the galaxy, and even if they did, it is likely that they would not be listened to as the majority of the sentient organics were engaged in a war and would likely dismiss the idea of a giant un manned ship with the ability to indoctrinate species to bend to their will. As far as the Asari, Turian and Salarians are aware, the Rachnai are just a savage race of spiders threatening their existence.

I do find it intereting about the Thanix Cannons not being implemented (after what you've just told me), but I again feel as though the story did not fumble as much as it could have as A) The galaxy is being purged of all space race organics. B) The previous battle with against Soverign may have made some believe that even with the upgraded weapons the Reapers would still be tough. and C) After 3 years of Shepard constantly prooving to the galaxy he was right, they decide to follow his instincts as they appear to be correct a majority of the time. While this is still somewhat weak, I believe it is more likely for a galaxy being exterminated to put all faith into a seemingly improbable method due to the knowledge that previous cycle races believed it would work, and that you have the background knowledge that ALL the previous cycles failed due to their attempts at conventional fighting (this is very apparent with Javik).

There are clearly holes in most ideas and opinions on the Mass Effect series, some being easier to believe while others not so much. My main annoyance with most of the fans is their willingness to accept the way Asari's breed, how Reapers indoctrinate species, and that EVERY species has a translator inbuilt into their brain or something (that doesn't translate every word, eg Keelah sal I (I think that's how it's spelt)) yet when it came to the distribution of the Crucible's power everyone suddenly found it too hard to believe.
 

M-E-D The Poet

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Noelveiga said:
M-E-D The Poet said:
Noelveiga said:
Guys? Guys, look up what a plot hole is, then post.

It's not "characters made a decision that seems dumb or weird" and it's not "something that could have been explained but was left vague". Things that are not plot holes include:

In The Walking Dead
... if you choose not to loot the car, the owner still stalks and kidnaps Clem to punish Lee despite Kenny having a kid and never even questioning whether to steal the food.

That's not a plot hole, it's a convenient characterization inconsistency. If the crazy guy decides to go after Lee, that's what he does, regardless of whether it makes the most sense, it's not logically impossible for it to happen.

Or in Arkham City
Strange threatening to reveal Batman's identity if he doesn't play along but never doing so despite being aware of his escape. Again, that's just something inconsistent the character chooses to do, not a logical impossibility.

Sheesh.

Real plot holes in games off the top of my head? Hm. Let's see... I'm coming up empty. I guess games tend to have simple plots, so it's relatively easy to keep them straight. There must be some, though...
I think real plotholes in games usually come down to : I've had the means the opportunity the intent to kill this bloke but I never do and then whine about how he's killing whatever he's killing even though I had the means to stop him all along.

Because in the end it then comes down to "am I prepared for the big fight" and some games allow you to be prepared for it ages before you actually get there but never allow you to finish it off.
Nope, that is exactly what a plot hole is NOT. By that token, all of Batman's relationship with the Joker is a plot hole. Again, a character choosing to do or not do something is not a plot hole unless this is based on information he shouldn't have or otherwise made impossible by the rules of the fiction. That's not even inconsistent characterization, even, that's just nerdy nitpicking, actively refusing to engage in suspension of disbelief and pointing out elements that are genre or media conventions as "plot holes".

Other things falling in that category: it's not a plot hole that Mario gets to fall to his death multiple times despite not being established to be immortal, it's not a plot hole that Link can take items from people's houses without being seen as a thief, it's not a plot hole that Nathan Drake and other game heroes get shot all the time, but if shot in a cutscene they die or are critically injured, it's not a plot hole that Final Fantasy characters can punch a tank to death and it's certainly not a plot hole that characters in games are shown in gameplay to be powerful enough to do something that they don't do, whether they complain about it or not.

What all of those are is bad College Humor sketches.
No I literally mean that you walk in a room with A tricked out Assault rifle after having shot 2000 guys on your way into that room and you get a cutscene you get hit once in the cutscene and then after the cutscene you only have a pistol for example (this happens a lot in farcry 3 for example)

Or do you not see how there is a massive hole in the situation where I walk in a room with a assault rifle, stay in that room and don't change anything and walk out the room with a pistol ?
 

M-E-D The Poet

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Noelveiga said:
M-E-D The Poet said:
Noelveiga said:
M-E-D The Poet said:
I think real plotholes in games usually come down to : I've had the means the opportunity the intent to kill this bloke but I never do and then whine about how he's killing whatever he's killing even though I had the means to stop him all along.

Because in the end it then comes down to "am I prepared for the big fight" and some games allow you to be prepared for it ages before you actually get there but never allow you to finish it off.
Nope, that is exactly what a plot hole is NOT. By that token, all of Batman's relationship with the Joker is a plot hole. Again, a character choosing to do or not do something is not a plot hole unless this is based on information he shouldn't have or otherwise made impossible by the rules of the fiction. That's not even inconsistent characterization, even, that's just nerdy nitpicking, actively refusing to engage in suspension of disbelief and pointing out elements that are genre or media conventions as "plot holes".

Other things falling in that category: it's not a plot hole that Mario gets to fall to his death multiple times despite not being established to be immortal, it's not a plot hole that Link can take items from people's houses without being seen as a thief, it's not a plot hole that Nathan Drake and other game heroes get shot all the time, but if shot in a cutscene they die or are critically injured, it's not a plot hole that Final Fantasy characters can punch a tank to death and it's certainly not a plot hole that characters in games are shown in gameplay to be powerful enough to do something that they don't do, whether they complain about it or not.

What all of those are is bad College Humor sketches.
No I literally mean that you walk in a room with A tricked out Assault rifle after having shot 2000 guys on your way into that room and you get a cutscene you get hit once in the cutscene and then after the cutscene you only have a pistol for example (this happens a lot in farcry 3 for example)

Or do you not see how there is a massive hole in the situation where I walk in a room with a assault rifle, stay in that room and don't change anything and walk out the room with a pistol ?
Hm, that's not quite what you described the first time, but never mind.

No, it's still not a plot hole. First off, it has nothing to do with the plot, it's related to a gameplay mechanic (i.e. your weapon management mechanic), so already it couldn't possibly be a plot hole. Second, because it's a gameplay thing, it's part of the nitpicky refusal to suspend disbelief I was talking about earlier. The devs didn't code for every weapon combo in the cutscene, so you're stuck with whatever they could design for. Some games put resources on that little nod to consistency, some don't, but that doesn't mean the ones that don't are telling their story in a worse way or that the logic of the plot is damaged because the GUN is not part of the PLOT. See my point?

I mean, if you're not willing to suspend disbelief for that stuff, how you do make it through your average platformer or brawler? How did all of those turkeys get lodged in walls and garbage bins in Castlevania or Streets of Rage? That's the same stupid train of thought you see in Cracked articles pointing out how nobody locks their cars, struggles to find a parking spot or goes to the bathroom in movies.
no you're dead wrong, it is a plot hole when that weapon would have solved the situation easily.

I think you yourself should have another look at plotholes, what I'm pointing out is a typical contradiction in setting/within the rules of the world.
 

IronMit

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bug_of_war said:
I still however feel that the story was pretty tight in terms of the Reapers not being considered a threat. As far as I am aware, other than the Rachnai, little to no other organics knew of Soverign's patrolling around the galaxy, and even if they did, it is likely that they would not be listened to as the majority of the sentient organics were engaged in a war and would likely dismiss the idea of a giant un manned ship with the ability to indoctrinate species to bend to their will. As far as the Asari, Turian and Salarians are aware, the Rachnai are just a savage race of spiders threatening their existence.
Just to clarify...
The advantages I listed (eg. the massive tactical advantage the reapers lost) actually has nothing to do with how aware people were of the truth behind the rachni or the reapers, or considering them a threat;

2000 year delay allowing everyone to advance
reverse engineered sovereign weapons (thianx cannons)
control of relays
control of citadel
no surprise attack via centre of relay network (even though they still somehow managed to make ME3 a kind of surprise attack anyway)
3 new powerful races to contend with -humans, krogan, possibly geth
The Quarians also have the biggest baddass fleet which they only made about 1800 years after the rachni war,('cos that's when the geth chased them off their planet)

It seems the galaxy has almost tripled in strength, and the reapers have lost their surprise citadel relay attack (the one the prothean VI on Ilos highlighted and said was their undoing)

The reapers wanted to attack 2000 years ago (or maybe much earlier) because it was a good balance between the civilisations being advanced enough to be worth culling and not too difficult to fight even with their surprise citadel tactic.
They have lost so many advantages in so many area's even if 99.9999% of the galaxy weren't preparing. The only point in my list that involves preparing is the mass production of thianx cannons.

This is where we can interpret in different ways. I think we are 2x/3x more powerful (+ citadel tactic stopped- the prothean legacy that makes us the first cycle that has a chance is a cool thought) means we had a chance to fight the reapers (if shepard unites the galaxy) Other's think the crucible is still necessary

I think in the codex it tells you the translator is built into omnitool type devices. When a new species is found they are integrated into the translation devices. They go into in mass effect 1 when they talk about the extranet and the hanar speak by some sort of illuminious lights that the translator changes into audio dialogue but you see them flash anyway .
 

Joseph Harrison

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Mikeyfell said:
Except you're wrong, that wasn't the first time they spoke (which is pretty obvious by the familiarity with which they speak) James has been guarding Shepard for the past six months while Shepard was in lock down. Also is it really hard to believe that in the six months between ME2 and ME3 that Anderson was promoted once or twice seeing as how he was one of the highest decorated officers in the whole alliance and a close friend with Admiral Hackett and Councilor Udina.

wintercoat said:
DeimosMasque said:
ecoho said:
snip
I always figured it was due to Shepard's Spectre seniority. Kaiden may be the higher rank in the Human military, but Shepard was a higher Spectre rank, and as Spectre rank trumps Alliance rank, Shepard was in command.
I also think it has to do with the fact that Shepard is a part of the army and Kaiden the Marines so because Shepard is in charge of the Normandy and Kaidan is "stationed" on the Normandy then Shepard is in charge of him.

Akratus said:
Reapers in ME3. They collect people to make more reapers. But as soon as they land they say 'Fuck THAT!' and just stomp around and fire lasers at BUILDINGS. No nanotech, biotech weapons whatsoever. Destroying all civilization in the universe. By stepping on their buildings and firing lasers at them.

Not as big as the the catalyst's logic though, ofcourse.

A double whammy completely knocking the reaper's villain status and credibility out of the park.
That was just for the starting of the invasion where they were taking out infrastructure and the Alliance military. If you listen to the dialogue they talk about how the Reapers are in fact taking people to be "harvested" they just have no qualms with killing lots of people if that's necessary.