BioShock Creator "Sad" Over ME3's Ending Scandal

nightwolf667

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Frostbyte666 said:
Greg Tito said:
"If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," said Barnett. "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one."
Not to rain on his parade, but didn't Arthur Conan Doyle have to do more Sherlock Holmes books after killing him off due to public outcry.
Not to mention Charles Dickens, focus group testing done by movie studios (How we got the new ending of the newest rendition of "I Am Legend"). In the publishing industry both editors and publishers can demand an author change their ending (and multiple other changes) to make a book more marketable. It's a little disengenous to say "this is how it is". When that's clearly how it isn't.

They can say no. They can't say it's never happened.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

Be the Leaf
Mar 16, 2011
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Nimcha said:
Fawxy said:
The majority of people aren't mad about the "sad" or "downer" nature of the endings, god damnit. People are mad that they spent 100+ hours on a series, only for every single choice they made to be thrown out the window and not make a single damn difference in the end.

This, of course, is after we were told that our choices actually would matter.
Well, they did. What happens to the krogan, quarian, geth, rachni, etc. all pretty much hinge on your decisions. And a lot of choices you made in the previous games get resolved in the third game as well.

I guess most people would want to see a cutscene or something of these events playing out.
No they don't because everyone is either dead (Mass relays exploded and killed them) or they are stuck in Sol.

That pretty much negates anything you did in the entire series including ME3.

Meanwhile the Normandy is randomly stuck somewhere. The Bioware community manager says Joker didn't didn't go through a relay but there isn't any other systems through the Charon relay and the only habitable planet (which it clearly isn't) is Earth...

I can see where the developers are coming from but the ending was absolutely terrible. I don't think we are in a position to demand a new one but they shouldn't be proud of that in any way.

I have a suspicion over why Drew Karpyshyn left...
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Da Vinchi paints the Mona Lisa, but neglects to do the left side of here face.

He then presents it to the person who commissioned the painting, whose name is Bob.

Bob takes one look at it and says, "Why the fuck is half her face blank?"

Da Vinchi say, "Hey, respect my intentions as an artist."

After a moments pause, Bob says, "Get fucked you pretentious knob. I wanted a portrait with an entire face."
 

Bostur

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Mar 14, 2011
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Paul Barnett from BioWare-Mythic said that if games are to be considered art then the audience must respect the creators' right to make the game as they see fit. Ken Levine from Irrational Games - currently working on BioShock Infinite - chimed in to say that even if BioWare wrote a new ending, the audience still would be disappointed and that the whole thing made him "sad".
It's really all in the hands of the creators. If they have enough artistic integrity and believe in their work it's up to them to stand their ground and keep it as is.
If they start wavering because of fan demands, then I guess they don't believe in what they made.

Rhetorics aside, fans can't demand anything and whether fans accept the decisions of the creators or not is irrelevant.
 

Blade_125

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What absolute drivel. Game as an art is irrelivant. Your games are a BUSINESS Mr Levine. If your customers are not happy with the product they will not buy it.

Two releases in the past year were not well received. Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2 (although I liked DA2). I don't give a damn if you consider it art. I am not about to support your art with my hard earned money. IF you want to consider this art, then you can die penniless like most artists. If you want me to buy your games, then you better listen to the consumers and make a quality product.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Sep 8, 2011
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That guy really doesn't get it. Did he even play Mass Effect 3? The ending was just strapped on like they ran out of time and decided to do something quick just for the fuck of it. It was an insult to everyone who bought their previous games. It was an insult on so many levels. And they don't get to get away with it.
 

TheCaptain

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Feb 7, 2012
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Why do these people never acknowledge that, art or not, a video game is also a product customers are supposed to buy? Also, it's probably just me, but I buy video games for the sole purpose of enjoyment in my spare time - if a game fails to entertain, fails to satisfy, it is a faulty product. And yes, I can demand it be changed. Especially since I'm part of a group of people who have often be called "the co-writers of the series".

Of course developer and publisher are free to decide whether they will give in to these demands or not. But hiding behind artistic "integrity" won't do the trick. Art must be appreciated, must be criticized, and must be subject to change to mean anything at all. Else it's just people dawdling about for the fuck of it.

-EDIT-
My usual disclaimer in this discussion: I still think Mass Effect 3 is one hell of a game, probably one of the best I ever played. But at this point, any change to the ending would be appreciated. I'm disappointed now, and if that dude thinks he can predict how thousands of people feel after a hypothetical change sometime in the future, he's pretty much talking out of his arse.
 

Mylinkay Asdara

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Nov 28, 2010
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I call bullshit. You know what happened to artists in the Renaissance when their patrons didn't like their work? They had to change it. Why? Because they wouldn't get to eat otherwise.

Being art does not make one's work unassailable and sacrosanct and I think it's pitiful that they want to use the status WE the people who play their work have worked hard to get bestowed upon such creations as a shield against legitimate criticism. Which is another thing all artists endure. So get over yourselves developers and recognize that you didn't deliver what you led us to expect and work to change it instead of whining to all your other developer friends about how mean we are for holding you accountable.

Sorry, I've been trying to be completely level-headed about this whole thing for as long as I could, but this blowback in response to blowback in response to blowback escalation stuff has got to stop and people need to have a mature discourse about it or just let it die already.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Alandoril said:
When you start a story, you have a duty to actually finish it.
Or do a Robert Jordan and die, leaving the job of trying to produce a coherent and satisfying ending to some other poor fuck... I think this is why George R.R. Martin is dragging out A Song of Fire and Ice - he's hoping he'll keel over before he has to try and wind it all up.
 

Legion

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Oct 2, 2008
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The difference is that J.K. Rowling did not specifically state that one thing would happen at the end, and then go ahead and write something completely different.

If games are to be considered art in the same sense as books and paintings, then game developers need to stop advertising them as mere entertainment products.

Bioware completely sold their game on the premise that choices matter, which was abundantly clear to all the people who hated the game, not the case.

I respect Bioware's right to do whatever they like with their product, they own it after all. What I do not respect is them selling us something completely different from what they advertised. That is what is boils down to ultimately. False advertisement.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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rhizhim said:
if it is really indoctrination it would mean that they did not keep their promise that they would bring the series to a closure

Yeah because EA would never pressure one of their studios to do that.
 

II2

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I think people are assuming Mr. Levine's statement is an apology for the ending.

Really, all he said was he's lamenting that nobody is getting what they wanted; neither the fans or the studio, and it's unlikely that some rewritten ending is going to make either party feel better about it. That is a sad thing.

The article seems misleading, since it was Barnnet talking about art and Rowling and etc that people seem to be ascribing to Levine.

Christ, it's dangerous to be a 'voice' and have any opinion on this particular topic. It's like hanging your junk over a shark pool in a hurricane.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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I want to fill a large box with "Director's Cut" and "Final Cut This Time For Sure" versions of movies and drop it on Ken Levine's head.

'Artistic vision' gets butchered and pressured for change all the time... so fucking what if it's the consumer bringing the pressure to bear this time instead of the money people?
 

RhombusHatesYou

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If Bioware want to make a REAL artistic ending, they should replace the ending scene with one of Casey Hudson and Mac Walters masturbating on a large pile on money while hooting like gibbons.
 

knight4light

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rhizhim said:
oh i see.
he is pulling the 'you can't criticize it because its art' card out of his ass.
but art is there to criticize and to be criticized.
blackdwarf said:
i have to say that there are theories that the ends has something to do with indoctrination.
this is the best video explaining. and if this was intended, then that would pretty genius. only now we won't know because if Bioware says that theory is correct, then i feels like they are saving their hides.
thanks for the vid!

i now can say surely say that the destroy reaper ending indicates that you have survived and avoided the indoctrination process.
look at the rubble around shepards body in the end. its concrete. the citadel didn't had concrete. it was mostly made of some kind of steel.

now the other endings make somewhat sense.

the sinthesis ending would had the same effect saren had with the reapers in mass effect 1.
you think you are in control but you work like a sleeper agent for the reapers.

the control reapers ending would than mean that you will become like a husk since you 'control' the reapers. and in fact they control you.


and joker chickening out would mean that the reapers are showing him what shepard wants to see. shepard cares for his crew so much that, in his idealistic mind, he sees that they are safe. perhaps this would explain why they 'coincidentally' land on a earth like planet( the planet looks like the planet from mass effect 2 loyality mission.
the mission where you have to find with jacob, jacobs dad who enslaved his crew by forcing them to eat the plants that grow on the planet, which have a toxic effect on your mind)


now the real question is:
if you chose the destroy reapers ending and it really means that you survived the indoctrination process, what does shepard do afterwards?
does he just chill the hell out and wait for the galaxy to be destroyed?
or does he haul his ass to the beam and all that he saw becomes then true.

ty for quoting that.. otherwise i would never have seen that video.. yes i still believe the entire game is the ending but dang if that is true.. and from the looks of it. (awesome presentation of clear details).. it most likely is.. total.. mindfuck......

well. off to import me3 save and go through it again.. this time have my weapons maxed lvl by the time the REAL ending comes... hopefully :D was wondering where harbinger was all this time ;)
 

MetalGenocide

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Why do I get the feeling Kevin is like:
"Awww shit, we were gonna go with the same thing. Inform the dev team, we've reworking our endings! Hmm, better post an opinion on some news sites..."
 

Dfskelleton

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So we're calling it a scandal now? Heh. It sure sounds silly when you say "The Mass Effect 3 Ending Scandal", but that really is the only way to describe the river of bile surrounding the ending of a video game.
OT: I've said it before and I'll say it again: They made a crappy ending, and that's their fault. You have every right to hate it. But that doesn't mean that you should demand that they "fix" it. They'll look back and say "Wow, people really hated the ending to ME3. Let's not do anything like that again.", and they'll do this both to please the fans as well as sustain a decent profit.
Bioware didn't gather around a long table with lighting that purposfully obscures their faces with shadow and say "Alright, let's try to put together the worst endings possible in order to piss off our fans MUAHAHAHA!". They thought that those endings would be fitting, and while maybe they aren't, I don't feel we have the right to demand them to change it.
I'm with Levine on this one.
Oh, and someone made the metaphor "Keeping your finger on the pulse of the gaming crowd". I bet if someone did, it would feel/sound something like this:
 

RhombusHatesYou

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I think the funniest thing is that if Bioware planned to 'pull a Fallout 3/Broken Steel' from the start, they've shot themselves in the foot... while it was in their mouth... because now they can't do anything like that without looking like they caved in to pressure and that'll be like blood in the water for future titles and fan outrage.
 

Monsterfurby

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I love how the entire rage about this ending exists not because it is bad - hell, lots of games have crappy endings without "closure", including but not limited to pretty much every GTA title in history (well, except for Vice City), and many Final Fantasy games.

No, the rage is entirely because this is Mass Effect. People need to realize that this ending is not bad on an absolute scale, but that they, themselves are disappointed with it. They expected something else and set themselves up for disappointment, quite similar to what happens every time a Fable game is released. Think about it, people - if you say "Bioware did not deliver what I expected", you are still within your rights simply to boycot them. Claiming this ending to be "objectively bad" however is just infinitely silly.

Edit:
Also, I just realised something. Kübler-Ross pretty much describes how internet communities (yes, YOU are a part of that faceless mass, deal with it) react to stuff like this:

Denial: They're gonna release a DLC pack to make the ending better.
Anger: I'm gonna sue you, Bioware!
Bargaining: Please, please, change the Ending.
Depression: I'm never going to buy anything from Bioware again.
Acceptance: (predicting this) Loads of parody videos, also: "Mass Effect, yeah, I remember that series. Weird ending, but the rest was awesome." (similar to what people say today about The Sopranos and Lost, despite all the rage back in the day)