people aren't mad about it being sad, they're mad about how it was advertised as "every choice you make will affect the galaxy and the ending", but what we got was "lol, nevermind"
BioShock Creator "Sad" Over ME3's Ending Scandal
- Thread starter Greg Tito
- Start date
This may have been said before, but when Harry Potter ended.. it had an actual fucking ending. The problems got resolved, and those who survived had a happy-gods-damned-ending, even if it skipped about 12-14 years or so for the epilogue. I honestly ENJOYED that, because I'm not sure I want to read about Harry and Ginny having marital problems, or how Ron would go and cheat on Hermoine.
Why? Cause that's the kinda shit you get when you're forced to drum up ideas for sequels. The cast has fulfilled their goals and their destiny, and they deserve to be happy and go about the rest of their lives. Don't heap extra trouble onto them just cause the fans want "more". They can go play the games, write their own damn stories (which they'll do anyways), or re-watch/re-read the original material.
As for games like Mass Effect 3.. it's really quite a different matter altogether. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have your own artistic integrity and make it how you want it... but you also have to factor in everything that's led up to this point, what the people supporting you have come to expect, and keeping some pretty hefty promises that sometimes cause you to do something you might not want to.
As an example, I think a LOT (we're talking easily hundreds of thousands) of people would have loved to see a PROPER ending to Final Fantasy 7. Hell, it's one of the reasons they want it remade (personally, I hated it and wish they'd all just shut up about FF sequels). No matter how much they bitched, whined, and campaigned, it hasn't happened and it likely never will. Besides, we've got so many prequels and sequels to it that we ALREADY KNOW what ends up happening, what happened before, and what happened DURING the game to the point that the original game no longer is canon anyways.
I'd personally have preferred Kingdom Hearts 2 to NOT have contained any of this bullshit about Keyblade Wars or "undisclosed pasts" or any of that crap that started creeping into the dialogue during the last portion of the game. Without that and the "hidden ending" the story would have come to an effective close, we wouldn't have needed all those horrible prequels which only further contort and contrive the established facts from earlier games.. we'll like never see a proper sequel where Sora, Riku, and Kairi go on an honest-to-gods fucking adventure without the FF baggage. But of course, one of the developers was the same person who cowrote FF7, and we all know how "perfectly" that was written. Your mileage may vary.
What I'm saying is that sometimes you have to actually NOT do what you would normally want to, and finish the fucking product to hopefully get out of "sequel-itis" (or prequel-itis, as the case may be). Sometimes the story has to end, and when you provide so many options to the player over the course of a game.. you better damn well have several endings lined up, or else it should've just been a straight, linear, follow-the-dots game to begin with.
Why? Cause that's the kinda shit you get when you're forced to drum up ideas for sequels. The cast has fulfilled their goals and their destiny, and they deserve to be happy and go about the rest of their lives. Don't heap extra trouble onto them just cause the fans want "more". They can go play the games, write their own damn stories (which they'll do anyways), or re-watch/re-read the original material.
As for games like Mass Effect 3.. it's really quite a different matter altogether. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have your own artistic integrity and make it how you want it... but you also have to factor in everything that's led up to this point, what the people supporting you have come to expect, and keeping some pretty hefty promises that sometimes cause you to do something you might not want to.
As an example, I think a LOT (we're talking easily hundreds of thousands) of people would have loved to see a PROPER ending to Final Fantasy 7. Hell, it's one of the reasons they want it remade (personally, I hated it and wish they'd all just shut up about FF sequels). No matter how much they bitched, whined, and campaigned, it hasn't happened and it likely never will. Besides, we've got so many prequels and sequels to it that we ALREADY KNOW what ends up happening, what happened before, and what happened DURING the game to the point that the original game no longer is canon anyways.
I'd personally have preferred Kingdom Hearts 2 to NOT have contained any of this bullshit about Keyblade Wars or "undisclosed pasts" or any of that crap that started creeping into the dialogue during the last portion of the game. Without that and the "hidden ending" the story would have come to an effective close, we wouldn't have needed all those horrible prequels which only further contort and contrive the established facts from earlier games.. we'll like never see a proper sequel where Sora, Riku, and Kairi go on an honest-to-gods fucking adventure without the FF baggage. But of course, one of the developers was the same person who cowrote FF7, and we all know how "perfectly" that was written. Your mileage may vary.
What I'm saying is that sometimes you have to actually NOT do what you would normally want to, and finish the fucking product to hopefully get out of "sequel-itis" (or prequel-itis, as the case may be). Sometimes the story has to end, and when you provide so many options to the player over the course of a game.. you better damn well have several endings lined up, or else it should've just been a straight, linear, follow-the-dots game to begin with.
Yes. If you didn't like it, don't read it and/or write your own damned novel so you can have the events in it turn out how you like. Chances are if it'd ended differently everyone who likes the ending it has would be the ones in your shoes bitching that it was a stupid way to end the series.shadow_Fox81 said:
Yes, because it was coherent, what the audience expected, had a very small ammount of plot holes, and It HAD SOME F***ING CLOSURE. Also, in comparison to ME3's ending, it kicks ass.shadow_Fox81 said:
Oh, I have been pissed off at endings to TV series and what have you not before. I go onto the internet, whine a bit about it and talk it out with others, but completely flip out like the ME fanboys I did not - and I definitely didn't file an FTC compliant LOL.Therumancer said:
Yes, they are releasing flawed products and ruining trilogies, but it's THEIR PRODUCT and THEIR TRILOGIES - not to mention what is considered flawed / ruining is completely subjective. When you purchase a game, all you are purchasing is a license to play it, nothing more.
To quote someone from Twitter,
You either stand up universally for artistic freedom or you are not standing up for it all it. Because by the same token, "moral guardians" would be allowed to censor / force changes to any video game or movie because "they didn't like it". Free speech isn't really free when it comes with "terms and conditions".
deadish said:
The thing is that the TV series didn't cost you anything to watch, other than time and advertising bombardment.
Also don't misunderstand the FCC complaint isn't so much "the ending sucks" as much as it is accusations of fraud and false advertising involving a product that was charged for. Bioware came out and made a number of promises involving how the series would be concluded and people purchused the product with the understanding that the story would be tied up and all the answers given. Bioware then was caught (via their own planned $3 app) intentionally planning to not fulfill those promises. The FCC complaint is a bit differant than what many people think it's about as I understand things. No lawyer would take a case "because I just think the ending sucks and want them to change it".
As I've said a few times, this is complicated, even if Bioware DOES take action and change the ending away from this monster of mindless profiteering, that proabbly won't get rid of the suit because in the end there is still the entire question of whether they engaged in fraud or not. It's like a thief getting caught and returning your property... it doesn't change the fact that he broke into your house. Time will tell if Bioware will inspire enough good will to get the charges dropped.
That said, I tend to maintain that games are a medium capable of producing art, I do not believe all games are art however. What's more it's possible for an artist to sell out BEFORE criticisms, not just in response to them. In this case the issue isn't so much one about Bioware sacrificing it's artistic integrity, but demands that they regain it and do a proper and consistant ending, as opposed to one entirely motivated by financial gain.
Honestly, people who talk about how dumb this is probably don't bother to consider that not only was it a crappy "do nothing" ending intended for franchise potential, it was ALSO an attempt to sell people the ending of the game by forcing them to pay more money. To even see all the "do nothing" options you needed to acheive more "asset" points than are in the game, the only way to get those is to raise your readiness which is done through multiplayer which has been monetized with "pay to win" components. What's more including more assets to make seeing all the versions of that same crappy ending is a way of pimping DLC by making the ending dependant in part on the "extras", not to mention plans for tie-in games like some kind of "Mass Effect: Infiltrator" app.
When you use the "games are art" defense of Bioware, understood they said back with ME1 they had this all planned out, yet they admitted in interviews (from the $3 endign app) they were making an ending towards the end of the ME3 release. What's more the entire ending is designed to take advantage of avenutes of cash gouging that weren't really availible or seen to be potentially viable when ME1 was conceived.
Understand people are pissed because Bioware is not only producing that ending, but sitting there and saying "hey, want to see another version of this crappy ending? All you need to do is put dozens of hours into multiplayher... or pay us some money to cut down on that tiem... multiplayer not your thing? Well buy some DLC to see more of the ending you already paid for... or hey... buy our tie in app game that raises your readiness by playing that when we finish it...".
Seriously, how anyone can NOT be at least mildly POed with EA/Bioware is beyond me.
For all you people saying they wanted closure , guess what ! Bioware did not want to give closure they never did, mass effect made millions of dollars they are obviously going to add another game with the series , whether that be featuring shepard or not is yet to be seen.
While that's true, they've also maintained all along that ME3 would be the end of Shepard's story.dcdude171 said:
Plus even if they were going to continue making Shepard games afterwards, they still need to provide closure at the end of this game. Which they don't.
it was hardly coherent but it did opperate coherently in harry potters overarcing logic "because magic did it".And of course harry and ginny are happily married and all that other lovely stuff.etcAkichi Daikashima said:
but its hardly a good ending and thats not closure thats what we want harry to win and be happy. But in a childrens novel its alright to give people what they want.
mass effects ending if handled similarly would have rung hollow and contrived, because it is after all directed at adults .
mass effects ending (for me there is only one) felt good because it was how I knew it would end, badly.
Well, good luck proving that in court.Therumancer said:
You better start collecting all the evidence where Bioware "promised" you what you think they promised you.
Personally, for curiosity's sake [1], I would like to see some of that evidence.
[1] I have no stake in this, I have never bought any of their games nor do I own any EA shares.
Hilarious since I'm not the one bringing the suit. It's already been lodged, and it's made the gaming media news, perhaps you should contact the guys actually bringing the case?deadish said:
That said a lot of the evidence is a matter of public record, and even covered in various escapist threads. You might not care for it, but as we're discussing something that has already happened, it's kind of a moot point.
deadish said:
Sorry I thought you were trying to be rude and dismissive, I get that a lot and try and ignore it.
As I undertsnad things a lot of the "evidence" for the actual FTC complaint and/or civil suit comes down to promises made by Bioware's design team prior to the release of Mass Effect 3. The "big list of promises" going back to a thread that showed up in the Bioware social forum. This differing from advertising hype because the statements were directly linked to people high up in Bioware who should know, making solid statements in interviews. The presumption being that the things they were speaking about were already defined in the game. If a lead developer comes out and says "the ending for this game is not going to be a simple choose A B or C ending" that's a bit differant than say a glossy full color add that says "the ending will blow you away..." rather generically. These promises being compared to OTHER interviews by developers and writers that were released as part of an app that was talking about the ending and the development process, something being sold seperatly for the game that fills a similar role to the "extra featues" on the DVD where members of the writing team talk about having not completed the ending until pretty late in the process, holding off recording the voice for "The Illusive Man" until pretty much the end of the process since they did not know what they were going to do for sure, and a bunch of other things. Not to mention the revelation that part of the ending was literally build based on fan mail sent in by a 7 year old from Germany. Understand this is not supposition, this is from interviews and such made by Bioware, with the validity of this information being supported by Chris Priestly.
Contrary to some reports, especially by the gaming media, the suits/FTC complaint that we've been hearing about are NOT attempts to get the ending changed. The goverment doesn't have the abillity to do that anyway. Rather it's all about fraud and false advertising. The basic point is that people in the development team speaking in interviews clearly said that their product was a certain way, and it was not, and then people in that same design team have shown in other interviews that they knew that, and actually in some cases deliberatly went against what was promised. An example being that some developers said that the ending was going to answer all the questions about Mass Effect, but at the last minute the guys doing the ending decided to ignore that, even if they were toying with the idea, and to not provide that information, or really any oppertunity to ask questions or investigate at all during the ending. The stated intent being to generate contreversy and hype, presumably to turn what should be the end of a trilogy into a giant cliffhanger intended to promote the next game.
It's unknown whether the guys bringing these suits/complaints will drop them if the ending is changed. It might be a leverating tactic, it might not. Not a whole lot has been said other than these things exist.
The actual case does seem to be fairly solid when you look at it from the perspective of fraud and false advertising, as opposed to a matter of whether someone liked the ending or not, because you do have Bioware employees making clear promises and statements about the product, and then other statements saying that they deliberatly chose not to provide what was promised without telling anyone before the product was released. In a less dubious case, let's say someone makes a vaccum that is advertised as a wet/dry vac over the internet, but the guys manufacturing it decide to remove the wet/liquid sucking features to save money at the last minute regardless of the promises, but don't change the advertising. They can be nailed to the wall if someone buys that product through the mail based on that ad that says it's a wet/dry vac and then finds it's doesn't fit the specs the company said it does and decides to make a complaint.
Whether it's stupid or not isn't really relevent, that's the basic nature of the case as I understand it. The whole bit about the $3 app and the information in it that has served to inspire a lot of the rage, and probably these suits besides, has (or had) a thread here on The Escapist, and really that's the biggest piece of information. For the initial claims you'd have to check other Bioware interviews, or see if there are any threads compiling them (the last time I checked was a week or so ago, and there was at least one on Bioware social).
Ya, some other guy gave me the link to the "A B or C ending" post that you highlighted.Therumancer said:
But only outcome I can see from all this "woo ha" is that developers from this point onwards will "clam up". We can forget about the candid style of interviews we have now, where they frankly speak whats on their mind with the implicit assumption that gamers will understand if somethings don't make the cut or things don't turn out the way they claim it would. [1]
Developers will probably have to act like they are "under arrest" - "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say, can and will be used against you" - when giving interviews from now on. I won't be surprised if the larger publishers demand that all interviews have to be vetted by their legal department and anything "dangerous" purged from said interview before publication, just to make sure they don't run into legal trouble.
[1] Simply because some times (if not frequently) things don't go as planned - "No campaign plan survives first contact with the enemy.". If you read developer post-mortems (written for other developers; to share experience) you will know creating a shippable product is bloody hard. There are tons of projects that don't make it to the finish line at all, that you don't hear about.
I get the choice part, but not the closure part. Yes, the ending was abrupt, but I think for the most part all the questions were answered.Proverbial Jon said:
Woah... wait, what?Saucycarpdog said:
Ok, here are a few questions that the ending actually created shortly before leaving them hanging, totally unanswered:
Whatever ending you picked the mass relays exploded. Previously, when a relay exploded, it wiped out an entire system, did the same happen this time... to the whole galaxy? What about the races which came to the Sol system in defence of Earth? How can they get back to their home planets without the relays? Even the Normandy, the most advanced warship in the Mass Effect universe, cannot reach other systems without the relays. Turians and Quarians will starve on Earth if nothing else because they cannot eat human food. What about Joker? How did he manage to retreat from Earth fast enough to outrun the magical space explosion and take a relay to another system? If I took Garrus with me to the final battle and we all got blasted by the Reaper beam before reaching the Citadel... then how is he able to step off the Normandy onto that jungle planet at the end? What? Just... argh!
These are just a few of the many, glaring plot inconsistencies that the so-called "ending" has produced.
Haha, don't worry about it! I might have been a bit quick to jump at you with those anyway, this whole Mass Effect ending thing is getting silly now.Saucycarpdog said:
I will agree that the majority of the game actually did do a good job of tying up loose ends and lingering plots. Pretty much every character we ever did anything for appeared in some capacity and had either sorted their lives out or not. It's just a shame that Bioware so expertly wrapped everything up only to send out a half baked cutscene that posed more questions than it answered. Shame.