BioShock Creator "Sad" Over ME3's Ending Scandal
- Thread starter Greg Tito
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I would also point out something funny, the only good game in the Bioshock franchise (thus far) has been the first Bioshock game. and it dealt with Ayn Rand's objectivist ideals; which put focus on the individual and screwed everyone else.Gigatoast said:
Take one of Ayn Rand's novels, The Fountainhead, here is a bit from wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_fountainhead]:
The story is basically about a single artist being against the norm, and being punished for it, up until the end where he "wins".
Take from this what you will, but I found it kinda funny. Course, I may have made a non-existant connection, but still.
My god, I'm sad with myself for reading through all these comments, just like I'm sad with myself for reading through every other ME3 thread that complains about the ending. It's everywhere I go...it's like some sort of bad nightmare I can't wake up from. Isn't anyone tired? I understand the dissatisfaction, but Jesus...I don't complain like this when I see a picture of a new burger from a restaurant, and then they hype it up like its the best damn thing that will ever hit my mouth. Then I say, "Shit, I gotta try the God-Burger." Then I try the "God-Burger" and guess what, didn't live up to my expectation. I just move on and get over it. Reality of life, it's gonna be full of disappointment, move on. You're hurting yourself more than anything by just reliving your disappointment everytime you post about it.
Did I think the ending was stellar, not particularly, but I don't expect someone to make a change just because I or thousands of other people were dissatisfied. We have the nerve to complain because we feel like the little guy just got stepped on. I feel like people think their entitled to have everything meet their expectations.
I didn't feel like ME2 took any real note of some of my decisions. I didn't curl up in a ball and cry as I angrily masturbated with my tears and then continue that cycle of hatred. If the gaming industry really wants to grow and move forward, yes, they need to take stalk in customer concern, but they aren't going to take stalk in people just outright bitching. I heard about people filing complaints with the FTC and laughed. It's called contructive criticism and positive reinforcement. Everyone keeps posting and bitching about the ending, haven't seen a post of the things people enjoyed. I think if overall the benefits of the full ride out-weigh 1 shitty ending, you still won. You still had an overall satisfying experience.
Did I think the ending was stellar, not particularly, but I don't expect someone to make a change just because I or thousands of other people were dissatisfied. We have the nerve to complain because we feel like the little guy just got stepped on. I feel like people think their entitled to have everything meet their expectations.
I didn't feel like ME2 took any real note of some of my decisions. I didn't curl up in a ball and cry as I angrily masturbated with my tears and then continue that cycle of hatred. If the gaming industry really wants to grow and move forward, yes, they need to take stalk in customer concern, but they aren't going to take stalk in people just outright bitching. I heard about people filing complaints with the FTC and laughed. It's called contructive criticism and positive reinforcement. Everyone keeps posting and bitching about the ending, haven't seen a post of the things people enjoyed. I think if overall the benefits of the full ride out-weigh 1 shitty ending, you still won. You still had an overall satisfying experience.
Ken Levine headed Bioshock, which also had a terrible ending for what was otherwise a masterpiece of a game.
I don't want Bioware to just take away the current Mass Effect 3 ending and replace with some kind of service to the internet out-criers. I just want them to add more endings with more agency/choice and less space magic. Portal slightly changed it's ending more than a year after its release. Fallout 3 had the ending altered by Broken Steel, partly to unlock the map again and also because Fallout's ending totally sucked.
I don't want Bioware to just take away the current Mass Effect 3 ending and replace with some kind of service to the internet out-criers. I just want them to add more endings with more agency/choice and less space magic. Portal slightly changed it's ending more than a year after its release. Fallout 3 had the ending altered by Broken Steel, partly to unlock the map again and also because Fallout's ending totally sucked.
The very fact that all of those endings could be possible from the way the stories vary from the first two games is testament alone to how broken the ending of the third is. All of that should have been possible. All of it. Everything they built in the first and second games shows that. There's literally no reason that the series couldn't continue to uphold the adaptive and dynamic narrative that it's had before. Shep could have been the martyr for a galaxy, or the savior-turned-villain as he took control of the Reapers, or the single individual who fucked the galaxy when the mass relays went supernova and stranded currently allied forces around a world that cannot support them. That all could have happened. Shep could have sold out to TIM, and gone into the fold. He could have just given up, and let the Reapers do what they do. That could all have happened, the way you'd established the character throughout the series.Metalix Knightmare said:
But none of what you did mattered. At the end, the puppet on the end of your strings stops dancing, because suddenly it's going through a pre-established routine that has fuckall to do with what he'd been doing before. It's incongruent, nonsensical bullshit.
I'm not at all sure that video games are art (art is super boring and video games are awesome, after all), but even then I don't think that getting Bioware to change the ending of the game is going to actually make the fans happy. The effort to change it itself might make them happy, but it's Bioware's baby. And if there's going to be a remotely plausible story for the next game or series of games in the ME universe, we need to let go of Shep.
Just a few general comments on art:
~ There is no reason to assume that art is an inflexible concept that's detached from its audience.
~ Changing the state of an 'artwork' as a consequence of constructive feedback does not disqualify or diminish the 'artwork' as art, and could in fact make it better. (See: Charles' Dickens Great Expectations' new and old endings)
~ There are many theories of art that place value on the artwork depending on how well it transmits the creator's emotions/thoughts through it. The uproar about the Mass Effect 3 ending would suggest that Bioware didn't achieve this as effectively as they could have.
~ If you want video games to be recognised as art you need to draw people in to appreciate it. This means making a game that is both artistic and engaging.
I'm holding off on beating ME2 until I know that a more satisfying ending is available for ME3. If one doesn't come, I'll wait till ME3 hits the bargain bin.
~ There is no reason to assume that art is an inflexible concept that's detached from its audience.
~ Changing the state of an 'artwork' as a consequence of constructive feedback does not disqualify or diminish the 'artwork' as art, and could in fact make it better. (See: Charles' Dickens Great Expectations' new and old endings)
~ There are many theories of art that place value on the artwork depending on how well it transmits the creator's emotions/thoughts through it. The uproar about the Mass Effect 3 ending would suggest that Bioware didn't achieve this as effectively as they could have.
~ If you want video games to be recognised as art you need to draw people in to appreciate it. This means making a game that is both artistic and engaging.
I'm holding off on beating ME2 until I know that a more satisfying ending is available for ME3. If one doesn't come, I'll wait till ME3 hits the bargain bin.
Hasn't the watershed passed? FO3 retconned it's terrible ending. 
Well anyway, I actually don't really like the idea either. I mean, I have no problem with yelling at the endings. Just not comfortable with the idea of developers altering stories after the fact.
Well anyway, I actually don't really like the idea either. I mean, I have no problem with yelling at the endings. Just not comfortable with the idea of developers altering stories after the fact.
What's interesting is that I was reading an opinion piece somewhere last week (I think on Penny Arcade) where, in discussing the ME3 ending, they said "Ken Levine would probably appreciate getting a do-over on Bioshock's ending."Gigatoast said:
Maybe not, based on his comments here...
My thoughts exactly. Or I guess the people want a sweet fluffy ending. Personally the ending made me kinda sad but it felt right. When my character sacrificed himself to save the galaxy i realised that the final decision shouldnt be easy , when i left Kaidan to die in ME1 this decision took me about 10 minutes. I was sad -yes , but it was a choice i had to take. Same here in ME3 with our beloved Shepard. If Bioware made an ending in which everything worked out perfectly like in a Disney movie i doubt that the fans were going to be in such nerdrage like they are now.Nimcha said:
Ken Levine, one of the last few guys whose games still have a degree of authorship in them. Rock on, you crazy diamond. If the ME naggers had their way every game would be comitee created to fulfill their every whim.
Dark endings are no more meaningful, deep, or interesting than light ones. It reminds me of Plinkett's review for Revenge of the Sith, "so what if it's dark, my stool is dark."
As many others have said, the problem with Mass Effect is that only decisions about the normandy soap opera matter, while 'decisions' related to the fate of the galaxy are dealt with as cheaply as possible, with all choices leading to the same outcome. I realized this at the beginning of ME 2, some people just chose to stay optimistic until the end of ME 3.
As many others have said, the problem with Mass Effect is that only decisions about the normandy soap opera matter, while 'decisions' related to the fate of the galaxy are dealt with as cheaply as possible, with all choices leading to the same outcome. I realized this at the beginning of ME 2, some people just chose to stay optimistic until the end of ME 3.
not that it'll matter one way or another if the ending is changed.
the people that are going to ***** will STILL ***** where as some people have already moved on.
not that it means anything to me. ME sucked since the first one far as I'm concerned
the people that are going to ***** will STILL ***** where as some people have already moved on.
not that it means anything to me. ME sucked since the first one far as I'm concerned
I think people are taking Kens words wayyyy too literaly. the guy jsut used the happy ending as an example. he means an ending you want. and when he says he stands by bioware, he means bioware needs to make the decision, not you people. not those idiots who are trying to sue bioware thru the FTC. that is despicable. consumer outcry and complaints are fine, and its biowares job to listen and do good business. but in NO WAY does ANYONE have the right to ORDER them to change it. if they change it, its THEIR choice, and i fully agree with people expressing their complaints about the ending, AND NOTHING ELSE.
its up to Bioware to listen to their consumers and do the good thing.
its up to Bioware to listen to their consumers and do the good thing.
Oh for...here we go again.
Yes. It is a creative work. It also is a product. They have all the right in the world to make their work however you want. Consumers have all the right in the world to say that work is garbage. The creator has all the right in the world to say, "Sorry, that's the way it is". Consumers then have the right to never buy your work again.
Using the JK Rowling analogy, if she made some book in the middle of the Potter series end in a spectacularly craptastic way, people would have had the right to not support the remainder of the series and effectively kill it.
Hell, even Renaissance artists had to cater to the tastes of their patrons. Do something to piss off your patron, you get kicked to the curb. No patron, no money. No money, no art.
I hate to use a quote from the bad guys of Mass Effect, but it really fits the artist/consumer relationship.
"You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
Besides, at the end of the day, this is BioWare. This isn't some guy in a garage that made the game that's just making it for kicks. They are a company first, and a company's main goal is to make money. BioWare is going to have to decide if they are going to make more money by sticking to their guns, or swallowing their artistic pride and make some alternate endings.
When they make their decision, consumers will make their voices heard when the next BioWare game comes out, one way or the other.
Yes. It is a creative work. It also is a product. They have all the right in the world to make their work however you want. Consumers have all the right in the world to say that work is garbage. The creator has all the right in the world to say, "Sorry, that's the way it is". Consumers then have the right to never buy your work again.
Using the JK Rowling analogy, if she made some book in the middle of the Potter series end in a spectacularly craptastic way, people would have had the right to not support the remainder of the series and effectively kill it.
Hell, even Renaissance artists had to cater to the tastes of their patrons. Do something to piss off your patron, you get kicked to the curb. No patron, no money. No money, no art.
I hate to use a quote from the bad guys of Mass Effect, but it really fits the artist/consumer relationship.
"You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
Besides, at the end of the day, this is BioWare. This isn't some guy in a garage that made the game that's just making it for kicks. They are a company first, and a company's main goal is to make money. BioWare is going to have to decide if they are going to make more money by sticking to their guns, or swallowing their artistic pride and make some alternate endings.
When they make their decision, consumers will make their voices heard when the next BioWare game comes out, one way or the other.
Now you all know how it feels... you all know what it's like being a Metal Gear fan and finishing Metal Gear Solid 4. Oh dear god, the crushing disappointment and melodramatic anti-climax that was that game.
But I never demanded anything from the artist, I just expected some recognition.
But I never demanded anything from the artist, I just expected some recognition.
Just because something is art doesn't mean I have to pay for it if I don't like it. Video games exist in a unique sphere where it is nearly impossible to return them - something untrue of any other form of media. Change that first; once you've stopped holding your audience hostage, then you can complain about them not respecting your work.