BioShock Creator "Sad" Over ME3's Ending Scandal

LordOfTheDance

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Though I believe games can most certainly be art.

Not all games should be art, because quite often 'art' gets in the way of entertainment. Mass Effect isn't some deep experience it is a triple AAA action title. Sure it can explore some interesting themes and occasionally make you think, but overall its about some bad ass space people kicking names and taking ass.

Mass Effect is not art and this whole, 'the ending is artful and you just don't understand is ridiculous.' The ending is obviously rushed the dev team changed their minds on how they wanted to do the end and had to switch things quick before the launch date. Probably because EA wanted the game out as soon as possible so some corners were cut. What we have now is an ending with a lot of gaping plot holes that erases the choices the player made throughout the story.

In terms of being a bittersweet ending the game is a failure. Its just a bitter wtf ending. I wish my wife had not bought me the copy and I would have stuck with my original plan to skip this title due to lack of Steam.

Bioware hasn't made a good game since Mass Effect 1 I guess I should finally give up on my youth's favorite developer.
 

Suicidejim

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Actually, the argument that 'if games are to be considered art then the audience must respect the creators' right to make the game as they see fit' is one that I hadn't taken into consideration. With that in mind, I actually do lean further towards the 'don't change the ending' side of the spectrum than I did previously.

I see what happened as a tragedy, but nothing can be done about it now without it feeling forced and awful.
 

SnakeoilSage

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Well Barnett, you've put your money where your mouth is. When Infinite comes out, we'll be keeping an eye out on whether you can deliver a satisfactory finale. If you can't deliver, you can pretend to be an "unappreciated artist," but it won't win sympathy with us.

You don't make art. You are not an artist by the same definition of men like Picasso or the makers of Citizen Kane. At best, you're a storyteller like Stephen King, popular but certainly not blowing anyone's existential socks off or telling a timeless tale with deep moral lessons. You make video games. You make electronic comic books and pulp stories. Television serials. You make entertainment. If we aren't entertained, then you failed. End of story. And if you don't like how that story ends, well. It's how we decided to end it. We're not going to change it because you get upset. You'll just have to accept it.

Yeah, sucks, doesn't it?
 

Dr Pussymagnet

a real piece of shit
Dec 20, 2007
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If a game is awesome it's a beautiful work of art.

If a game does something I don't like then it's just a product and I demand a refund because I'm a consumer.
 

seditary

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lol nice flawed 'art' argument there from the guy from Bioware.

Too bad you are going against history and the actions of both your industry and your company.
 

Steve the Pocket

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Gigatoast said:
Perhaps it'd be unfair to point out Bioshock had a s**t ending too.
mattttherman3 said:
This coming from the guy behind Bioshock 2.
moosek said:
Ken Levine headed Bioshock, which also had a terrible ending for what was otherwise a masterpiece of a game.
I'd hoped someone would bring this up. It's been mentioned before, possibly by Levine himself, that the dual ending of BioShock was mandated by the higher-ups at 2K. That makes this especially interesting, because on one hand, he knows as well as anyone what it's like to not be able to end a game the way he wanted to, but on the other hand, he also knows what it's like to be stuck with a rushed, unsatisfying ending.

It would be interesting, in light of this, to know how his team originally intended to end BioShock. I don't believe anyone has ever said. Of course, it would also be good to know whether the ending of Mass Effect 3 was actually Bioware's idea or something EA mandated, because it's possible that Levine is completely mistaken about it being the decision of an "artist". It's entirely possible, maybe even probable given their track record, that EA cut production short before they could finish making the endings they wanted because they wanted to ship the game earlier.

(And mattttherman3, as Imbechile said, BioShock 2 was handed off to a different team. I'm curious to know what you found unsatisfying about its ending, though; I thought they dramatically improved the multiple-endings thing from the first game.)
 

Canadish

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More people miss the point about why people are mad about the Mass Effect 3 ending - Bioshock creator edition.

I find it funny how this site and others were claiming that Bioware "is just a business" during the DLC controversy, and now changing their tune to "they're ARTISTS!!!".
 

soren7550

Overly Proud New Yorker
Dec 18, 2008
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Greg Tito said:
... Speaking at a symposium to celebrate the art of videogames at the Smithsonian in Washington DC, Paul Barnett from BioWare-Mythic said that if games are to be considered art then the audience must respect the creators' right to make the game as they see fit. Ken Levine from Irrational Games - currently working on BioShock Infinite - chimed in to say that even if BioWare wrote a new ending, the audience still would be disappointed and that the whole thing made him "sad".

"If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," said Barnett. "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one."

Those gathered to hear the discussion loudly applauded Barnett's words. When the ovation died down, Ken Levine made sure to express his opinion on the controversy surrounding the ending of Mass Effect 3 because he saw this as a watershed moment in gaming.

"I think this is an important moment," he said.

"I think if those people got what they wanted and (BioWare) wrote their ending they would be very disappointed in the emotional feeling they got because ... they didn't really create it," Levine said.

"This whole thing is making me a little bit sad because I don't think anyone would get what they wanted if that happened."
They fail to see why fans are upset. BioWare promised us that the game would have 16 different endings where all of the player's choices would come into account. As we all know by now, that didn't happen. BioWare failed to deliver a product that they promised.
There's also the fact that the ending was poorly written and made no sense, but that's a whole other bag of worms.

And for the love of god, stop using books/movies/games that don't rely on player choice as an excuse for BioWare's terrible ending to Mass Effect 3. Books and movies do not require someone's input, and follow one outcome every single time because that's how it's made. Most games are the same, but just require that the player survive the game to see the ending. Mass Effect is solely moved by the player's actions and decisions, and again, BioWare promised something that wasn't in the game as recently as January 2012. Also, they've said that the fans are as much a part of creating Mass Effect as they are, so if the fans (who according to BioWare are a part of creating this) are saying it needs to be redone/fixed with DLC, then shouldn't BioWare listen to their co-creators?
 

Detective Prince

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Games are art. I'm not disputing that. However I'm not saying I'd stand behind Da Vinci and tell him to make the Mona Lisa a little more cheerful for my own benefit.

What we're asking for...Is that our Shepards get the send off they deserve. I know my Shepard did NOT deserve to have every single decision she'd ever made to boil down to..."So...you want green, red or blue?" Like picking a damn M&M to eat. This is a story but it's personal to EVERYONE because you're telling people that their Shep is unique to them and each person has a unique experience. To then give them a unanimously crappy ending...was...well...crappy.
 

Andaxay

Thinking with Portals
Jun 4, 2008
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TsunamiWombat said:
I find it very amusing Rowling keeps coming up, because she very much wanted to kill Harry and/or Ron at the end of the series just 'cause. Her editors/fans convinced her this would be literary suicide.
Rather that than the sugary fanfiction epilogue we got. I hated it. But I enjoyed the books very much so I can kind of blank it out when I read through again.

I bet BioWare end up changing the ending. But I bet it doesn't satisfy. Could be an interesting few days on the ME front at any rate.
 

m72_ar

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Oct 27, 2010
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Massive difference between ME and HP is that HP is purely what Rowling want, she will give you a story and you can take it or leave it. us readers don't have any input on how the story should go or end because that's how the medium works.

Games on the other hand players can provide input and they've promised the entire "your decision will matter and will create a personalized ending".

Too hard? Too many variables? Bullshit, they did it in DA:O, the fallout style text/VO overlaid on a screenshot where all the effects of your decision are reflected, oh wait they also did in in ME2's suicide mission with the mini 10 second cut-scene reflecting your Ships's upgrades.
 

Agente L

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Apr 4, 2010
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I think I can safely say that "The Paying Gamers Are "Sad" Over Gaming Industry Current Model".

inb4 "gamer entitlement"
 

12th_milkshake

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Nov 20, 2008
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what? When did an art critic not say what they felt bad or good. What a stupid thing to say. ART can be complained about and is... constantly...
 

m72_ar

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Oct 27, 2010
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Andaxay said:
TsunamiWombat said:
I find it very amusing Rowling keeps coming up, because she very much wanted to kill Harry and/or Ron at the end of the series just 'cause. Her editors/fans convinced her this would be literary suicide.
Rather that than the sugary fanfiction epilogue we got. I hated it. But I enjoyed the books very much so I can kind of blank it out when I read through again.

I bet BioWare end up changing the ending. But I bet it doesn't satisfy. Could be an interesting few days on the ME front at any rate.
Well if they do change the ending, it's not like it can get any worse.
 

The Human Torch

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Sep 12, 2010
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Look, Mr. Levine, can I call you Ken? Is that okay? Okay? Cool.

WE DO NOT HATE THE ENDING(S) BECAUSE THEY ARE ART, WE HATE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE FILLED WITH PLOTHOLES, INCONSISTENCIES, AND IN GENERAL, FEEL LIKE A RUSHED PRODUCT.

All the work that Sheppard did in all 3 parts of ME is completely undone, you are pissing over your own stories without even the courtesy of calling it rain.

It's a shit piece of writing and anything that is of subpar quality, be it a book, a painting, a movie or a video game deserves to get slandered and critized for it.
You are lucky that you work on an interactive medium, that you can change by simply releasing DLC and have players download it. Painters/writers/directors can't say the same.
Yet you continually keep living in your own imaginary world where you are the god of authors and Mass Effect is your Magnum Opus.

STOP BULLSHITTING YOURSELF AND STOP LYING TO YOUR CUSTOMERS.

That is all.
 

FFHAuthor

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As a creator, Bioware has the right to make whatever they want in whatever way they wish in accordance with their position as an artistic group creating something which I consider art.

As a producer, Bioware has the right to charge me for access to that creation.

As a consumer, I have a right to purchase that product in exchange for payment.

As a free thinking individual I have a right to consider that creation in any way I see fit and to judge that in any way I see fit by whatever standards I desire, since I have paid money for access to it.

As members of a free republic, I have a right to voice my opinions, as does the staff of Bioware.

In layman's terms, you make, you charge, I buy, I get to judge. I don't like, I get to complain since I paid.

You're demanding something from me to access your art. Even the Mona Lisa was a commission painting by Leonardo, just because WE consider it to be a valuable artistic treasure, doesn't mean that the person who wanted it done didn't have a right to say what he wanted. We'd call it sacrilegious if someone today demanded that the painting be changed, but it wouldn't have been crazy if the Giocondo family said 'no, I don't like that, change it' when they paid for the thing.
 

Clive Howlitzer

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Why does every single site keep saying we dislike the ending because it is too "bleak" instead of just because its a piece of shit? It makes us sound way worse, like we wanted a disney happy ending when really we just wanted an ending that gave some closure, made sense, and factored in our choices. The stuff they had been preaching since day 1.
 

Andaxay

Thinking with Portals
Jun 4, 2008
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m72_ar said:
Andaxay said:
TsunamiWombat said:
I find it very amusing Rowling keeps coming up, because she very much wanted to kill Harry and/or Ron at the end of the series just 'cause. Her editors/fans convinced her this would be literary suicide.
Rather that than the sugary fanfiction epilogue we got. I hated it. But I enjoyed the books very much so I can kind of blank it out when I read through again.

I bet BioWare end up changing the ending. But I bet it doesn't satisfy. Could be an interesting few days on the ME front at any rate.
Well if they do change the ending, it's not like it can get any worse.
Judging from the mass reaction, you're probably right. It's a sad day when a huge gaming company feels it has to go back and alter what they thought was a released product, but the huge amount of backlash is obviously a sign that something is up.