Bioshock plot issue (Spoilers)

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

So, I just finished Bioshock, which took me 3 years of off and on playing. It was just one of those things where whenever I would get into Bioshock, some game would come out that I really wanted to play or whatever, it was just one of those things.

Anyways, onto the plot issue. So, I get to Andrew Ryan and he wants me to kill him and lets me kill him. Firstly, why did Ryan want to die? Secondly, shouldn't he have been resurrected by a vita-chamber as the chambers were attuned to his DNA? Wouldn't Fontaine/Atlas know about the vita-chambers? Thirdly, why did Fontaine/Atlas think you would be able to kill Ryan as Ryan would've known about the mind control Fontaine/Atlas was using on you?

If Bioshock 2 answers these questions, you can go ahead and tell me as I don't think I'm going to play Bioshock 2. If Ryan is still indeed alive and that is the basis for Bioshock 2, in the ending of Bioshock, they should've cut back to Rapture to show you that Ryan was still alive because without that, the plot doesn't standalone and is incomplete. And, it still wouldn't answer why Fontaine/Atlas thought you were his ace-in-the-hole to kill Ryan due to the mind control issue. Did Ryan once tell Fontaine that if his son ever came to kill him, he would let his son kill him? Because that would be like the only instance where that, if I was Fontaine, I would know that Ryan's son would and could kill Ryan, even then you have the vita-chamber issue. It seems Ryan's son would be like the last person that would be able to kill Ryan due to the mind control.

 

[artanis_neravar]

So, I just finished Bioshock, which took me 3 years of off and on playing. It was just one of those things where whenever I would get into Bioshock, some game would come out that I really wanted to play or whatever, it was just one of those things.

Anyways, onto the plot issue. So, I get to Andrew Ryan and he wants me to kill him and lets me kill him. Firstly, why did Ryan want to die? Secondly, shouldn't he have been resurrected by a vita-chamber as the chambers were attuned to his DNA? Wouldn't Fontaine/Atlas know about the vita-chambers? Thirdly, why did Fontaine/Atlas think you would be able to kill Ryan as Ryan would've known about the mind control Fontaine/Atlas was using on you?

If Bioshock 2 answers these questions, you can go ahead and tell me as I don't think I'm going to play Bioshock 2. If Ryan is still indeed alive and that is the basis for Bioshock 2, in the ending of Bioshock, they should've cut back to Rapture to show you that Ryan was still alive because without that, the plot doesn't standalone and is incomplete. And, it still wouldn't answer why Fontaine/Atlas thought you were his ace-in-the-hole to kill Ryan due to the mind control issue. Did Ryan once tell Fontaine that if his son ever came to kill him, he would let his son kill him? Because that would be like the only instance where that, if I was Fontaine, I would know that Ryan's son would and could kill Ryan, even then you have the vita-chamber issue. It seems Ryan's son would be like the last person that would be able to kill Ryan due to the mind control.

His entire dream had just collapsed around him, everything that he had worked so hard to achieve had been destroyed all through the actions of Fontaine. That combined with the fact that by making you kill him he helped reveal the mind control. And to answer your resurrection system he probably instructed the computer to not resurrect him, took his DNA out of the system while leaving yours in it.

EDIT: Not sure if Fontaine knew that Ryan knew about the mind control (it's been awhile since I played) and he probably chose you specifically for the Vita Chamber reason. Also Fontaine probably could have removed Ryan's DNA from the system at some point

 

[thenamelessloser]

Spoiler

I think it is because of the fact that Fontaine knew about the vita chambers that he sent you. If Ryan kills you then you just come back to life. Ryan also purposely shut of the vita chamber nearby before you kill him. It is a bit odd though that Ryan let you kill him so easily just to prove a point that you're simply a slave or whatever. (haven't played the game in a while though) Especially since he is an Objectivist. I'm pretty sure Ayn Rand is against any kind of sacrifice of one's life even to prove a point whatever it was

.

 

[Amakaze]

Spoiler

Just finished playing through Bioshock again, I think I can provide some answers.

1st) Its not so much that Ryan wanted to die, but that he wanted to die on his terms. You're his son, and he mentions that he can't raise his hand against you...yet you've lowered his defenses, and Fontaine has the ability to force you to carry on. Presumably, they could get into a 'would you kindly' war to keep you locked in place, but Fontaine would just have come and completed it himself, now that Ryan's office is open. So, he doesn't allow himself to be 'killed' but chooses how. He's in control of his death, like a man, while you're just a slave carrying out orders. Could he have fought back? Yes, but he sees that he's been outmaneuvered by Fontaine/Atlas and probably realized the truly identity of his opponent. He's just so much of a control freak that he'd rather kill himself than go down fighting for his life.

2nd) Interestingly enough, they thought of this question. In the larger zone before Andrew's office, there is a Vita chamber...with the guts pulled out. Ryan has deliberately destroyed it because he wants to die. Its worth noting that if you let the turrets kill you when the little sisters are leading you off, you will have to reload, as there is no vita chamber for you.

3rd) He did. Which is one major reason he's using you as a patsy. Not only would it slow Ryan down once he figured out who you were, but you're effectively immortal because you share Ryan's genetic markers. Only Ryan can use the Vita chambers...Ryan and you. Now, Fontaine actually raised you in secret. He didn't expect Ryan to know about Would You Kindly and, in fact, when you first arrive Ryan thinks you're just a member of the FBI or the KGB, come to plunder his city. He puts it together slowly, as you can see in that room before his office, with the giant WOULD YOU KINDLY scrawled amidst pictures and calculations as Ryan put the truth together. He puts it together through the course of the game. In the final levels, he starts to reference it until the penultimate moment. That said, Fontaine's gambit has a 1 in a million chance of working...but chances are you were his hail mary pass more than his primary plan.

Bioshock 2 mostly focuses on other issues. It introduces a villain who is as selfless as Ryan is selfish, but no more moral, and explores morality in a father/daughter relationship with a little sister, as you play her Big Daddy. I do highly recommend the game, but I admit its back loaded in the same way that Bioshock is front loaded (Bioshock has a wonderful beginning, a great twist, and a lackluster ending. Bioshock two has a lackluster beginning, progressing into enjoyment, topped with a much more satisfying finish).

 

[artanis_neravar]

Spoiler

I think it is because of the fact that Fontaine knew about the vita chambers that he sent you. If Ryan kills you then you just come back to life. Ryan also purposely shut of the vita chamber nearby before you kill him. It is a bit odd though that Ryan let you kill you so easily just to prove a point that you're simply a slave or whatever. (haven't played the game in a while though) Especially since he is an Objectivist. I'm pretty sure Ayn Rand is against any kind of sacrifice of one's life even to prove a point whatever it was

.

Don't forget all of his dreams and life goals had just been smashed in his face

 

[thenamelessloser]

Spoiler

I think it is because of the fact that Fontaine knew about the vita chambers that he sent you. If Ryan kills you then you just come back to life. Ryan also purposely shut of the vita chamber nearby before you kill him. It is a bit odd though that Ryan let you kill you so easily just to prove a point that you're simply a slave or whatever. (haven't played the game in a while though) Especially since he is an Objectivist. I'm pretty sure Ayn Rand is against any kind of sacrifice of one's life even to prove a point whatever it was

.

Don't forget all of his dreams and life goals had just been smashed in his face

Disagree, Andrew Ryan's philopshy is very similar to Ayn Rand's. I only read Fountainhead by Ayn Rand but she seemed to be very against the idea of sacrificing oneself. She valued human life and reason above all and thus even if one's current goals failed, still not suitable reason to kill oneself when one can just keep on trying another way or for something else. But perhaps this is where the true criticism of Objectivism lies in the game though. (i doubt Ayn RAnd would ever be for brainwashing a whole population for instance as well though.)

 

[Sinclair Solutions]

Firstly, why did Ryan want to die?

Spoiler

Ryan realizes there is no way he can get out of his death. But he does not want to give Atlas the satisfaction of him being assassinated. So, he decided to die by his own terms and commits a brutal assisted suicide, just to prove he is still control of his own fate (and to give a middle finger to Atlas.) He als realizes Jack is his son, so his last act is a fatherly advice of illustrating Jack's mind control and how Jack should overcome this to be a true man.

Secondly, shouldn't he have been resurrected by a vita-chamber as the chambers were attuned to his DNA? Wouldn't Fontaine/Atlas know about the vita-chambers?

Spoiler

The commonly held belief is that Ryan shut off the Vita Chambers so he wouldn't come back, to prove the point explained above. Even if Atlas did know about them, Ryan would have already shut them off. This theory is somewhat disproven since you can be resurrected by a Vita Chamber in Ryan's office, but it is still what is maintained.

Thirdly, why did Fontaine/Atlas think you would be able to kill Ryan as Ryan would've known about the mind control Fontaine/Atlas was using on you?

Spoiler

To a degree, Fontaine never truly knew that Jasmine Jolene (Jack's mother) revealed her secret to Ryan. In addition, Jack was still under mind control. Jack would have killed Ryan due to Fontaine's commands. I'm sure he would have just kept repeating the order if Ryan tried to coward his way out of the situation and said something like "Would you kindly not kill me?"

 

[Amakaze]

True enough. And it must be said that as a posterboy for Objectivism, Ryan does a bad job. I'm not a fan of the philosophy in general, but Rapture collapsed the way it did because Ryan WASN'T objectivist. When power threatened to leave his grasp, he stamped down with oppression, using capital punishment, seizing businesses, and censoring artists (to the point of killing Culpepper for writing a song critical of Sanders, a pro government artist).

Of course, if he HADN'T done that, then Fontaine would have taken over, using his charity angle to buy off the masses and setting himself up as king of a city of mutants too spliced up to question him...but, technically, that would at least have been in the philosophy of the best rising to the top.

 

[Amakaze]

Spoiler

Just finished playing through Bioshock again, I think I can provide some answers.

2nd) Interestingly enough, they thought of this question. In the larger zone before Andrew's office, there is a Vita chamber...with the guts pulled out. Ryan has deliberately destroyed it because he wants to die. Its worth noting that if you let the turrets kill you when the little sisters are leading you off, you will have to reload, as there is no vita chamber for you.

Hmm. My memory is a little hazy, it seems. The vita chamber in Ryan's office is deactivated (you can activate it, if you wish) but otherwise intact.

 

[tirone231]

Since everyone else has covered the main OP questions, I'll just add that Bioshock 2 has very little to do with any plot point from the first aside from the continuation of Rapture. Jack is occasionally referenced in the background art and such, but it's really all about subject Delta and his experiences with a new villainess

 

[Beardly]

True enough. And it must be said that as a posterboy for Objectivism, Ryan does a bad job. I'm not a fan of the philosophy in general, but Rapture collapsed the way it did because Ryan WASN'T objectivist. When power threatened to leave his grasp, he stamped down with oppression, using capital punishment, seizing businesses, and censoring artists (to the point of killing Culpepper for writing a song critical of Sanders, a pro government artist).

Of course, if he HADN'T done that, then Fontaine would have taken over, using his charity angle to buy off the masses and setting himself up as king of a city of mutants too spliced up to question him...but, technically, that would at least have been in the philosophy of the best rising to the top.

I always assumed plasmids were the main thing that caused the fall of Rapture.

Imagine a world where keeping up with the Joneses didn't mean having the nicest house or the most expensive car but the coolest super powers and highly addictive drugs. No matter what the leadership is doing that place is falling apart.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

And to answer your resurrection system he probably instructed the computer to not resurrect him, took his DNA out of the system while leaving yours in it.

That part should've been in the game if it did happen. Have Ryan leave an audio diary explaining it in his office.

there is a Vita chamber...with the guts pulled out. Ryan has deliberately destroyed it because he wants to die.

Hmm. My memory is a little hazy, it seems. The vita chamber in Ryan's office is deactivated (you can activate it, if you wish) but otherwise intact.

Yeah, I noticed that vita-chamber and I'm pretty sure I actually activated before killing Ryan unless you can't really activate if it was gutted as you say. But how would Fontaine even know Ryan would have disabled the vita-chamber. It just seems like Fontaine's plan isn't that great (and was years in the making, the long con) unless Fontaine has some super great intelligence on the psyche of Ryan. The vita-chambers only revive you if you dead from physical damage, dying of cancer or poison would cause you to stay dead. Fontaine's plan should've involved poisoning or something because I doubt he would have known that Ryan wanted to die or disabled his vita-chamber.

Now, Fontaine actually raised you in secret. He didn't expect Ryan to know about Would You Kindly and, in fact, when you first arrive Ryan thinks you're just a member of the FBI or the KGB, come to plunder his city. He puts it together slowly, as you can see in that room before his office, with the giant WOULD YOU KINDLY scrawled amidst pictures and calculations as Ryan put the truth together. He puts it together through the course of the game. In the final levels, he starts to reference it until the penultimate moment. That said, Fontaine's gambit has a 1 in a million chance of working...but chances are you were his hail mary pass more than his primary plan.

I assumed Ryan would've known about the mind control stuff. I don't remember the game saying Fontaine raised you without Ryan's knowledge, I remember Fontaine saying he implanted the memories and such, but I didn't think Ryan didn't know about the mind control stuff as you are his son and such. It would make sense that Ryan didn't know who you were right away though.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I'm sure he would have just kept repeating the order if Ryan tried to coward his way out of the situation and said something like "Would you kindly not kill me?"

I wonder what would happen in that situation, a human getting two conflicting orders that they would have to do (due to mind control). Would you just not do either? Would you have a brain issue and possibly become a vegetable or something?

 

[Sinclair Solutions]

I'm sure he would have just kept repeating the order if Ryan tried to coward his way out of the situation and said something like "Would you kindly not kill me?"

I wonder what would happen in that situation, a human getting two conflicting orders that they would have to do (due to mind control). Would you just not do either? Would you have a brain issue and possibly become a vegetable or something?

I'm sure Fontaine made sure he was the dominant task giver. But we can only speculate.