BlizzCon 2010: Cataclysm Equals Two Expansions' Worth of Work
- Thread starter John Funk
- Start date
What we aren't paying for alone is expansion in itself. One thing I loved to do in WoW was explore, and just when I have seen about everything in the world, (I think I've missed a couple nooks and crannies)it gets remade for new exploration. I won't have to bother getting the expansion for a couple months. Well, I still need to get WotLK.XinfiniteX said:
Lots to do, and lots more that has been done. This is gonna be great.
Yeah the difference in damage and health will be like 82 to 86, but the other things like hit, crit, avoidance and such will be much more favorable because they depend on the level difference. It helps a little bit if your not enjoying a zone and want to move on to the next early.
Well, yes and no.Maraveno said:
One thing you have to understand was that Warcraft had a sort of storyline to it that has been going on for a long time. "World Of Warcraft" was build up around the events of "Warcraft 3" and the entire plot driving the game has revolved around Arthas. With the end of "Lich King" Arthas is no more, and that should be that. Logically that should be the end of the story, and it's time for everyone to ride off into the sunset so to speak.
The problem of course being that WoW is a business, and since there are a lot of players, Blizzard wants to make more money. Forget the integrity of the storyline, or even common sense, they can't decide to end things gracefully when there is more money to be made!
Cataclysm is pretty much an undisguised money grab. They are redoing large portions of the game because they have pretty much developed everything of note. There are no real threats left in Azaroth so they pretty much need to pull one out of their keister and somehow try
and make it more epic than the events they spent years leading up to.
For a lot of the people complaining I think it comes down to the simple fact that they want to be there for the end of the story so to speak, and with that completed rather than getting on with their new MMO project and closing WoW down or whatever (which I guess few people should have ever really expected) they are instead producing what amounts to a poorly conceived sequel.
It's sort of like all the stuff various owners of the Dungeons And Dragons liscence have done to campaign worlds. Once they have detailed all the core areas of the campaign worlds and sold the books, they detail some massive crisis that flames everything, and then sell new editions of books covering the same areas.
In this case the whole idea of Cataclysm is ridiculous when you consider that Deathwing might be powerful lore wise, but he's not anything compared to say Arthas or Yog Saron, never mind Agalon, yet he's being presented as capable of doing something that Arthas and Yog couldn't in a matter of days.
It's pretty much Blizzard saying "look, there is another giant loot Pinata at te end of the expansion! Expand your EPEEN scores and chaaarge!" while counting the money. Sadly, the social aspects of the game mean that it's probably going to work, and even I'm going to play it due to the time I already put in and the people I know.
The point here is that as far as money grabs go, this one isn't even all that well designed. I think a lot of people were kind of hoping that Blizzard would stun people with coming up with something awesome to top Lich King if they ever did come out with another expansion, but really they didn't.
Ah well enough rambling, such are my opinions, and it seems a lot of people agree with me. Of course then again since I'm probably going to buy and play this I am arguably part of the problem as I'm always talking about in regards to other games.
not to mention that buying WoW will cost 170$ for the full game soon enough, really for the amount blizzard makes for the product i expected more play things but i assume that this is everything they can do with the game engine, i bet the SC2 map editor can make better boss fights then the WoW engine.Scrumpmonkey said:
Ok, I been through game changing events in MMOs. First was Ultima Online when it destroyed my favorite city of Yew in a game patch, a little angry, one I thought Yew was one of the nicer cities and I used it often, angry, but not game quitting angry. Then the huge Star Wars Galaxies debacle, I laugh now because it was World of Warcraft's fault.
I see this as a little different. I'll agree it is moved by money, but also a little of new understanding of the direction of the game. Wrath of Lich King was a success because Blizzard knows what players want. Cataclysm was an excuse to reforge Azeroth to the style that was so successful in Wrath, 2500 new quests and quest-lines in the the old world, then another 1000 quests in the 78-85 zones. Zones redesigned to flow better. I barely touched old zones now, a couple minutes, maybe an hour for leveling an alt. And I've seen the redone capital cities, they are amazing compared to the old versions, part better design, part better graphics engine.
As for the gameplay shake up, the stats were almost to a breaking point in the game, for example dodge worked to the point where either a player dodged the incoming attack or was one-shoted. Now they designers have more room to work.
And they added more perks for social gaming like the new guild system.
I see this as a little different. I'll agree it is moved by money, but also a little of new understanding of the direction of the game. Wrath of Lich King was a success because Blizzard knows what players want. Cataclysm was an excuse to reforge Azeroth to the style that was so successful in Wrath, 2500 new quests and quest-lines in the the old world, then another 1000 quests in the 78-85 zones. Zones redesigned to flow better. I barely touched old zones now, a couple minutes, maybe an hour for leveling an alt. And I've seen the redone capital cities, they are amazing compared to the old versions, part better design, part better graphics engine.
As for the gameplay shake up, the stats were almost to a breaking point in the game, for example dodge worked to the point where either a player dodged the incoming attack or was one-shoted. Now they designers have more room to work.
And they added more perks for social gaming like the new guild system.
Um... the cause of all the events of Warcraft 2 could be pointed directly at Deathwing. So much for pulling a threat out of their keister huh?Therumancer said:
Sorry, I think you're pretty much wrong on all provable (that is, non-subjective) counts.Therumancer said:
A.) How is Arthas the end? Arthas wasn't even introduced until WC3. This just ties up the storyline of WC3, not the WC story as a whole. The Legion is still out there, Sargeras is still out there, there are still other Old Gods - to think that the story of Azeroth is over just because a (admittedly very major) villain has been defeated is just silly.
B.) Deathwing was hinted to be lurking and preparing ever since... well, Vanilla, I guess, when it was hinted that something was in Grim Batol that the Red Flight was guarding, and it was intensified in BC with the Netherwing flight and the NPCs there. We all knew he was coming back.
Deathwing was a major baddie ever since WC2, and it was always hinted that he was still around. This is hardly an ass-pull, it was one of the main questions WoW players were asking Blizz since the launch of Vanilla.
C.) Arthas stronger than Deathwing? Seriously? Deathwing is the embodiment of the Earth and a fully powered Aspect is way worse than Arthas could have ever hoped to be.
D.) Have you actually played Cataclysm? I've been in the beta for a while now and the difference in quality between old-world Vanilla and the new areas is flabbergasting. How can it possibly be a "cash grab" when it takes twice as long and twice as much work, but costs the same as a regular expansion? Oh, and half of the stuff (all of the changes to the old world) they aren't even charging for--that comes free with 4.0.
The game itself is infinitely better in 4.0 than it ever was. It's so much more fun to play, both in terms of content and system design.
Shh, your ignorance is showing.ionveau said:
WoW has some of the most ridiculously cool and complex bosses I've ever seen in a game, and I've been gaming for twenty five years now.
I totally agree they can't keep pumping out expansions and gain new customers, but at the same time, most of the cataclysm changes are available without having to buy any expansions. Then they'll start putting out battlechests and go cheaper on the previous expansion packs.ionveau said:
Shh, your ignorance is showing.ionveau said:
WoW has some of the most ridiculously cool and complex bosses I've ever seen in a game, and I've been gaming for twenty five years now.[/quote]
Twenty five years you say?
Blizzard could add a mining mini game thats like minecraft why they dont? engine sucks
They have no clip flying mounts(Who else agrees flying mounts feel like you have no clip on)
Most boss fights are just debuffs and buffs with "cute" animations to distract you from seeing its just numbers
The "new" engine update death grip feels glitchy
they could add better skills then jump back really fare or pull a person but they cant and whos to blame? the engine
You will never see them add a grappling hook like in just cause 2
You will never see them have seesaw puzzles like in half life
So yes WoW is a complex game, it has alot of numbers and you need numbers to beat those numbers
Do you notice how the boss run animations dont match up with there speed?
Wait...people were actually stupid enough to think Cat is a copout?
Oh right, most gamers think Halo or MW2 is the be all end all of gaming, the real question is why am I still suprised?
Oh right, most gamers think Halo or MW2 is the be all end all of gaming, the real question is why am I still suprised?
So...
1. This to make up for the pathetic LK fight
2. This to make up for the pathetic WotLK
3. Drum up hope for World of Warcraft 2/ Universe of Starcraft / Diablo MMO - 2012 project
-shrug- You destroyed a lot of memories and only give me 5 levels to roam in my new broken world...
1. This to make up for the pathetic LK fight
2. This to make up for the pathetic WotLK
3. Drum up hope for World of Warcraft 2/ Universe of Starcraft / Diablo MMO - 2012 project
-shrug- You destroyed a lot of memories and only give me 5 levels to roam in my new broken world...
You're confusing "engine" with "design intent" quite badly. There's no limitation keeping them from modifying in minecraft-like play, and likewise the engine doesn't limit them to "just knockbacks, jumping, and pulling" so much as balance and skill design. Now, you are at least right with the see-saw puzzle to an extent: besides gravity, there's not much physics modeled. But again, not that hard to modify in, even if just local triggers. 'Bring these items into this invisible box and the seesaw moves' might already be possible without even needing to modify the engine.ionveau said:
The grappling hook I guarantee could already be pulled off if they wanted it. See the jumpbot daily in Icecrown for a point-to-target style, and any vehicle gun for an aiming version.
Do you really want clipping flying mounts? Really? That would be awful. SWG had clipping on items in houses for a while, it wasn't so bad at times, but it was ultimately removed because 1) people learned how to literally trap people in a house due to lag and 2) you couldn't move around otherwise. Yes, they could have player-clipping if they wanted. It doesn't make for a fun game, most of the time.
Finally, all games are just numbers. RTS's? Damage and armor formulas. FPS? Ray-tracing to hit boxes. Do they intersect? It's a hit! Where did you hit and with what? Calculation for damage! Explosions? Well that's just ray tracing or trajectory to a target spot, create a sphere and calculate if hit boxes touch that radius. Trying to deride WoW boss fights as "nothing but numbers" is just ludicrous.
I won't go in to animation problems. WoW is not the only offender in the least, that sort of thing is in any 3D game, even if you don't see it as easily. I'll keep my giant, lumbering monstrosities lumbers on what must be very slick surfaces so long as the lumbering still looks good, thank you.
Yeah cata is gonna be cool at least exploration wise but you know what else is cool not having a 50/50 chance to crash because of cogwheels. Yes I turned off tooltips but that just means it's 50/50 not 100% now..
Any who got my horse so I'm happy and hope that cata brings in underground quest zones like the nerubian zones were supposed to be ><
More on topic I initially thought this was gonna be a half ass cash grab with little to nothing new as programming an entire world is a lot more work than a reskin but from what I have seen I suppose it is a lot of work and they pretty much are redesigning the world and only have a basic layout of what it once was. Now if we can just get saurfang to lead the horde instead.
Any who got my horse so I'm happy and hope that cata brings in underground quest zones like the nerubian zones were supposed to be ><
More on topic I initially thought this was gonna be a half ass cash grab with little to nothing new as programming an entire world is a lot more work than a reskin but from what I have seen I suppose it is a lot of work and they pretty much are redesigning the world and only have a basic layout of what it once was. Now if we can just get saurfang to lead the horde instead.
I agree with that.Maraveno said:
I think though that Blizzard may have bitten off a bit more than they can chew with this expansion. I am a huge WoW fan (have several level 80s...have raided most of IceCrown Citadel as a Blood Elf Hunter) but from my time spent in the beta I've noticed how horribly buggy everything still is. Even on the live servers during the current 4.0.1 patch, not everything is correct, things are messed up, and I can't tell you how many random disconnects I've had since that patch went live. Yeah it's come a long way but Blizz is going to have issues come release day...more so than they did with Wrath...and mainly because I feel they've done too much too soon.
Everything I've read says it does.Lt. Vinciti said:
Also the 2012 project is a completely new IP, no Starcraft, Warcraft or Diablo.
Blizzard cannot "destroy" your memories, your memories will still be there, and you'll experience them using Azeroth again, additionally, the "5 levels" will take just as long as 70-80 did, it just means gaining a level means more. (also you gain a talent point every level after 80).
Blizzard never bites off more than it can chew, I do feel they rushed 4.0 a bit, however, it should be noted that 4.0 has the biggest amount of complete overhauls ever. New mechanics like the eclipse mechanic, soul shards, holy power, completely different talent trees for everyone.Deylin said:
As for beta....it's still beta and experiencing bugs there should not worry you...I played both previous betas and I found bugs all the way up until release, then they were fixed on live.
So far my biggest issues with Cata is the silly way levelling a new character will go now. You will start in post Cata Azeroth, then hop casually into Outlands and Northrend to poke around with bit's of Legion/long dead Illidan/Arthas and then go back to Azeroth for more Deathwing madness.
That is sadly always the bad thing about re-designing old content. They can't make 2 previous expansions obsolete but same time it's impossible to keep the proper flow with all those gimmicks.
That is sadly always the bad thing about re-designing old content. They can't make 2 previous expansions obsolete but same time it's impossible to keep the proper flow with all those gimmicks.
"They're both fantasy games, yeah, but one is more traditional 'Tolkienian' fantasy whil...." *reading comes to a screeching halt.
WHAT? No. NO. Nononononononon.
WoW is NOT "Tolkenian" Fantasy!
Look, i am no hardcore fanboy, but as someone who has read the Books LONG before the Movies were even announced and also as someone who had his fair share of fun in WoW i have to tell you that you ARE NOT even close to that universe.
You were once, the Problem is that the overarching of Steampunk (i love Steampunk by the Way) and the massive jokearounds (wich in my oppinion are sometines a bit to much so that it grinds into the athmosphere of the overall world and game) put you more into the region of Terry Prachet (wich i also love and read regularely. ^.^).
That is fine with me, but you are NOT on a "Tolkenian" Level. (I can't press on that enough.)
WHAT? No. NO. Nononononononon.
WoW is NOT "Tolkenian" Fantasy!
Look, i am no hardcore fanboy, but as someone who has read the Books LONG before the Movies were even announced and also as someone who had his fair share of fun in WoW i have to tell you that you ARE NOT even close to that universe.
You were once, the Problem is that the overarching of Steampunk (i love Steampunk by the Way) and the massive jokearounds (wich in my oppinion are sometines a bit to much so that it grinds into the athmosphere of the overall world and game) put you more into the region of Terry Prachet (wich i also love and read regularely. ^.^).
That is fine with me, but you are NOT on a "Tolkenian" Level. (I can't press on that enough.)
How will the full game cost 170 bucks when the rrp price of WoW, TBC and WotLK has dropped? I could get all three from my local GAME store for about £30 now, which is about $50, so unless you're being charged somethere in the region of $100-120 for Cata I suspect that you're just whining baselessly.ionveau said:
There seems to be a lot of complaining about Blizzard making a product to make money here, well Boo Hoo! Blizzard is a private company operating in a capitalist market who have their shareholders to answer to, welcome to the real world people. If you don't like how that works you don't have to buy it.