Bolivia's Jenine Áñez finally allows election effectively at gunpoint, loses and is going to jail

Seanchaidh

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Joe Biden is just absolutely trash on foreign policy. Such a surprise.


On liberals after the revolution-- or indeed, after the coup is defeated:

 

crimson5pheonix

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Now the OAS wants to replace anyone unfriendly with the former coup government in Bolivia so they can bail out the former coup government and save them from the consequences of their own actions, and what will certainly be less than what they were going to do with Morales if they successfully arrested him before he fled the country.
 

Seanchaidh

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I don't understand why America feels like it needs to control them so much. Or realise that the immigrant 'problem' is directly tied to this meddling
Immigration is a good wedge issue because it's easy to scaremonger about and typically proposed "solutions" to it are quite monstrous. Great for dividing people on lines other than their class interests.

As for why the United States feels the need to meddle, it wants access to the resources of these countries for use by the ruling class of the United States. It also wants to prevent anything socialist from looking obviously successful if it possibly can.
 
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tstorm823

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not surprising
Oh my God! The government wanted to, *gasp*, see research relevant to foreign policy? How dare they!
As for why the United States feels the need to meddle, it wants access to the resources of these countries for use by the ruling class of the United States. It also wants to prevent anything socialist from looking obviously successful if it possibly can.
Your beloved socialist country narrowly escaped another "socialist" strong-man dictator, and you're upset that it even escaped and want all those responsible punished severely. You are a caricature.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Your beloved socialist country narrowly escaped another "socialist" strong-man dictator, and you're upset that it even escaped and want all those responsible punished severely. You are a caricature.
Uh, the Bolivian coup was an undemocratic coup launched by a right wing capitalist who looted the country as fast as she could, including taking out huge loans from foreign banks.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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Your beloved socialist country narrowly escaped another "socialist" strong-man dictator, and you're upset that it even escaped and want all those responsible punished severely. You are a caricature.
The strong-man dictator! The one that drives massive turnout in elections and keeps winning, and winning so hard that they don't have to have another round of elections because Bolivia has a better electoral system than America does!

As always, it's a blast reading your view of Bolivia, it's so outside of reality.
 

Trunkage

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Immigration is a good wedge issue because it's easy to scaremonger about and typically proposed "solutions" to it are quite monstrous. Great for dividing people on lines other than their class interests.

As for why the United States feels the need to meddle, it wants access to the resources of these countries for use by the ruling class of the United States. It also wants to prevent anything socialist from looking obviously successful if it possibly can.
Looking at what’s happened in South American countries, it kinda tells me that Capitalism I bad. You’d think that would be a priority
 
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Hawki

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Looking at what’s happened in South American countries, it kinda tells me that Capitalism I bad. You’d think that would be a priority
Except if you look at the most wealthy countries in South America, they're more capitalist than socialist. Similarly, you live in Australia (capitalist), while across the sea is New Zealand (capitalist), whereas to our north, the most wealthy Asian nations are also capitalist (Singapore being our closest example geographically, which is richer than any country I've listed here in terms of PPP). All of these countries have high standards of living when compared to socialist countries.

Of course, "capitalist vs. socialist" is a false dichotomy in that countries who've lifted themselves out of poverty have done so with a "development state." To cite an example that's come to the fore, poverty began to fall in India when it liberalized its economy, but its Covid disaster is, in part, due to the gutting of its healthcare sector, with cuts to government spending and privatization. You can easily go too far in either direction (Venezuela a case of going too far left, as opposed to India going too far right).
 

Agema

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Except if you look at the most wealthy countries in South America, they're more capitalist than socialist. Similarly, you live in Australia (capitalist), while across the sea is New Zealand (capitalist), whereas to our north, the most wealthy Asian nations are also capitalist (Singapore being our closest example geographically, which is richer than any country I've listed here in terms of PPP). All of these countries have high standards of living when compared to socialist countries.
Yes, but...

Surely this doesn't account for initial starting development. Australia and NZ were already heavily developed compared to south-east Asia. Singapore was alerady the premier commercial hub of southeast Asia under the British Empire. The general level of education and human development of Europeans was much higher than most of the world. Australia and NZ are primarily populated by (the descendants of) European colonists, who took all the advantages of European development straight to their new country where the Cambodians, Vietnamese and Guineans were still pretty much medieval (or worse) technology.

The second consideration is socialism as a reaction to capitalism, where capitalism has more than a little of an association with colonial empire. In this sense, socialism made a lot more sense to the heavily exploited ex-colonial nations, because their experience with capitalism was extremely negative. Therefore also, the poorer and less successful nations from the colonial era would be more inclined to socialism. Again, lower starting point.

Finally, capitalism retained general global dominance and higher development post-empire. Capitalist nations were averse to dealing with socialism. Thus trade and development were in large party dictated by ideological compatibility with the dominant capitalist nations, thereby limiting socialist nations. A large component of Cuba's underdevelopment, for instance, is simply that what should be its largest trade partner, the world's largest economy just ~100 miles away, has denied it market access for over 50 years.

So outside any flaws of socialism, socialist countries have to a large extent started poor and been further disadvantaged by external (foreign) factors.
 
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