Bolivia's Jenine Áñez finally allows election effectively at gunpoint, loses and is going to jail

Hawki

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Yes, but...

Surely this doesn't account for initial starting development. Australia and NZ were already heavily developed compared to south-east Asia. Singapore was alerady the premier commercial hub of southeast Asia under the British Empire. The general level of education and human development of Europeans was much higher than most of the world. Australia and NZ are primarily populated by (the descendants of) European colonists, who took all the advantages of European development straight to their new country where the Cambodians, Vietnamese and Guineans were still pretty much medieval (or worse) technology.

The second consideration is socialism as a reaction to capitalism, where capitalism has more than a little of an association with colonial empire. In this sense, socialism made a lot more sense to the heavily exploited ex-colonial nations, because their experience with capitalism was extremely negative. Therefore also, the poorer and less successful nations from the colonial era would be more inclined to socialism. Again, lower starting point.

Finally, capitalism retained general global dominance and higher development post-empire. Capitalist nations were averse to dealing with socialism. Thus trade and development were in large party dictated by ideological compatibility with the dominant capitalist nations, thereby limiting socialist nations. A large component of Cuba's underdevelopment, for instance, is simply that what should be its largest trade partner, the world's largest economy just ~100 miles away, has denied it market access for over 50 years.

So outside any flaws of socialism, socialist countries have to a large extent started poor and been further disadvantaged by external (foreign) factors.
All of this is more or less true, but they come with caveats:

-You're correct in that capitalist countries would have a head start, but even when countries have been rebuilt from ground zero, capitalist countries tend to have come up on top. We can compare West and East Germany (feel free to extend this to all of Europe post-WWII if you want), North and South Korea, Hong Kong vs. Mainland China (similar with Taiwan vs. China), and recently, I've seen the Cuba vs. Singapore analogy. In every one of those examples, the capitalist country has ended up doing better than the socialist country, even with similar starting points. Even with China, the greatest poverty reduction in human history (by raw number) occurred when China opened up its economy for foreign investment. And to use another example listed, communist North Vietnam did conquer capitalist South Vietnam, but Vietnam's poverty began to fall when, again, its economy became more liberal.

-You're also correct in that socialism is, in part, a reaction to capitalism. And to clarify, mixed economies tend to do the best (again, China reduced poverty when opening up its economy, it didn't go full neoliberal to do it). And yes, you're correct that various nations had a bitter taste towards capitalism after gaining independence (Africa is a key example). Again, though, if we're pitting the systems against each other, capitalism seems to have done better (see the examples above). Or, more specifically, mixed economies seem to do the best.

-If we define "post-empire" as the end of WWII, I'm not sure if capitalism can said to have had dominance per se. The capitalist and communist blocs were just as unwilling to trade with each other, and just as willing to fight proxy wars to prop up their respective ideologies. And if we're talking about Cuba, I mean, sure, okay, but no country is obliged to trade with another. And even then, isolation can be self-inflicted - Eritrea's under no obligation to join AFTA for instance, even though it's probably going to harm it.

So, yes, even if socialist countries started at a disadvantage, over the course of the 20th century, one did better than the other, the result being that there's only a handful of countries that could call themselves socialist left, whereas most other countries are capitalist, or, more accurately, mixed market. If we look up the Human Development Index for instance, most, if not all of the highest ranking countries can be defined as capitalist, albeit with strong social security nets. Part of why I'd argue "capitalism vs. socialism" is a false dichotomy, because on one hand, if your definition of "evil socialism" is simply stuff like medicare for all, free education, and various other social programs, all I can say is "GTFO." On the other, clearly it's possible for the government to have too much control over the economy, because there's plenty of examples in both the 20th and 21st centuries for that.
 

tstorm823

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Uh, the Bolivian coup was an undemocratic coup launched by a right wing capitalist who looted the country as fast as she could, including taking out huge loans from foreign banks.
Oh my god, a government took out loans, *gasp*. And they did it *faint* during Covid! I don't think my heart can take such horror!
The government of the United States is trying to intimidate researchers who expose the lies of their foreign puppets.
That's a delusion, where somehow you've turned "show us your reasearch" into "never speak about this again".
The strong-man dictator! The one that drives massive turnout in elections and keeps winning, and winning so hard that they don't have to have another round of elections because Bolivia has a better electoral system than America does!

As always, it's a blast reading your view of Bolivia, it's so outside of reality.
You know, if Putin asks a court to let him just be president forever, you probably have a few doubts about the legitimacy of that ruling. In America, at the end of every presidential term, there are some crazies from one side or the other convinced the president is about to abolish term limits and become the first US monarch. In Bolivia, that actually happened, and you people are like "yeah, that's cool" because the guy has the word socialist in his bio.

When that guy got chased out of office, the people you support barricaded the capital city hoping to literally starve out the interim administration (and everyone living there), and when guns got involved fighting the barricade, you think that's a crime against humanity. I'm not going to declare Jenine Anez a saint, but people treating it as "popular leader overthrown by evil rightwinger who slaughters innocents!" is so divorced from reality, you can't even understand what I'm saying right now.
 

Lykosia

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(Singapore being our closest example geographically, which is richer than any country I've listed here in terms of PPP).
Singapore isn't capitalist state. It's closer to market socialism, but even that can be misleading. In Singapore the state invests heavily in companies in different sectors and much of local economy has links to them, but the state is pretty hands off with this and uses them mainly as an investment. The profits are used to help with the budget and to keep taxes lower. The state owns about 90 % of all land and houses. It's a strong wellfare state with cheap education, universal healtcare, public housing, most people get some subsidy from the state, poorest get a lot of support from the state. Singapore isn't really capitalist or socialist country. Or it's both.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Oh my god, a government took out loans, *gasp*. And they did it *faint* during Covid! I don't think my heart can take such horror!
Without the consent of the legislative branch due to not really having a plan on where the money was gonna go, *and* they had a scandal involving paying inflated prices for medical supplies immediately after.

They were looting the slush fund, my dude.
 

Seanchaidh

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A large component of Cuba's underdevelopment, for instance, is simply that what should be its largest trade partner, the world's largest economy just ~100 miles away, has denied it market access for over 50 years.
And they still have a better life expectancy than that trading partner.
 

crimson5pheonix

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You know, if Putin asks a court to let him just be president forever, you probably have a few doubts about the legitimacy of that ruling. In America, at the end of every presidential term, there are some crazies from one side or the other convinced the president is about to abolish term limits and become the first US monarch. In Bolivia, that actually happened, and you people are like "yeah, that's cool" because the guy has the word socialist in his bio.
The big difference here is that the president in question is actually popular. Others and I earlier in this thread said he probably shouldn't have gone around the referendum and should have let someone else run, that's already established as a poor move on Morales' part. But where there's a point of contention between us is that phrase "let him just be president forever". That's not what he did and that's not what term limits are about.

Funnily enough bringing up Putin, there are term limits in Russia and they don't matter because Putin cycles between the two highest offices in the country and has a puppet occupy the other, on top of very obvious and direct tampering to make sure he doesn't lose any given election, it is actually bad. It's also not at all what happened in Bolivia. Morales pulled some chicanery to run again, but then ran a free and open election with nearly 90% voter turnout, and then won fair and square. You're stuck on the procedure, but Morales winning is clearly a better reflection of the will of the people than any American presidential election. It has nothing to do with him being socialist and everything to do with democracy.

When that guy got chased out of office, the people you support barricaded the capital city hoping to literally starve out the interim administration (and everyone living there), and when guns got involved fighting the barricade, you think that's a crime against humanity. I'm not going to declare Jenine Anez a saint, but people treating it as "popular leader overthrown by evil rightwinger who slaughters innocents!" is so divorced from reality, you can't even understand what I'm saying right now.
Well, "popular leader overthrown by evil rightwinger who slaughters innocents!" is quite literally what happened. You started raising a stink here because the coup government is getting locked up for committing a coup, and conveniently ignoring that that coup government when it seized power started rounding up MAS officials and imprisoning them, before any rioting started from the people, they were just rounding up their political opponents so they couldn't be reelected when they finally decided to start holding elections again. The riots started with protests, and the coup government started killing them then, so of course they turned to rioting and starving what they saw as an illegitimate government. Are you saying you're so lazy that if the guy you rightfully and lawfully elected got thrown out by the other team, who then started rounding up people of your party to throw in political prison, you wouldn't try and fight it?
 

Silvanus

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You know, if Putin asks a court to let him just be president forever, you probably have a few doubts about the legitimacy of that ruling. In America, at the end of every presidential term, there are some crazies from one side or the other convinced the president is about to abolish term limits and become the first US monarch. In Bolivia, that actually happened, and you people are like "yeah, that's cool" because the guy has the word socialist in his bio.
You know what else is required in order for someone to become a Putin-esque despot/ monarch? Abolishing elections.

Morales would have been able to rule for longer if re-elected. You know, like all those other democracies around the world without term limits. I don't see you declaiming Belgium as a despotism because it doesn't have term limits. They're not a necessary, or even a very common, feature of functioning democracy.

Now, ruling despite not having any popular mandate from an election actually is despotic/ monarch-esque. You know who did that? Jeanine Áñez. You're fine with it specifically because she's anti-socialist and her opponent was a socialist.
 

Seanchaidh

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That's a delusion, where somehow you've turned "show us your reasearch" into "never speak about this again".
They published their research. Why is the fucking Justice Department of the United States threatening subpoenas about it?
 
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Seanchaidh

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-You're also correct in that socialism is, in part, a reaction to capitalism.
Apart from possibly the earliest utopians, socialism is little other than a reaction to capitalism.
 

Trunkage

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So, what we see as 'Capitalism' in Australia, UK and the US is not actually capitalism. I don't know if Agema means it this way so they can paraphrase or correct me here, hence them being added

Let's take Guatemala as an example. Decades ago, some companies America wanted resources. They then installed a puppet. Large swathes of the land of given to America private companies. They trained the Guatemalan army to maintain these lands, who then murder, raped, stole, took land so much so that they are banned from accessing most of the land that isn't in private American hands. They killed that many people. THIS is capitalism. What you see in Western countries is a thin veneer that is just to sell capitalism. I cannot say that capitalism is better than socialism, because THIS is what capitalism is. It's pretty much hasn't change from mercantilism (and why I say we've never had anything remotely close to capitalism.)

Just for the record. ALL of the Guatemalan people lose. The American tax payers lose because they are paying for the army. American consumers win because they get lower prices. The company wins BIG because they have an army to force and got the American government to pay for it. Looking at Ted Cruz's recent op ed, it doesn't take much to buy a senator. While not as bad, see also East Timor, where we Australians pretended to be for their independence then stole their oil. That's capitalism. It's not what you see in Australia or America. It's what you see in other countries. South American countries may have started at a disadvantage. They are kept their by capitalists. China is a great example of what happens when you remove capitalists from a situation.

And I don't think Socialism/ Communism is any better. None of these ideologies deal with corruption or belligerence well. In fact, I think they all are very good at feeding these issues... again, using China as a very good example of this. We need either a new way of markets to deal with these issues, or a separate ideology that gets tacked on that enforces... less corruption and belligerence. (sorry that was a bad sentence. I'll work on that.) In part, that's what democracy does... and its helped but its falling short.
 

Revnak

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Without the consent of the legislative branch due to not really having a plan on where the money was gonna go, *and* they had a scandal involving paying inflated prices for medical supplies immediately after.

They were looting the slush fund, my dude.
You forgot that they’re Catholic, which means they can’t be bad.
 

tstorm823

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and conveniently ignoring that that coup government when it seized power started rounding up MAS officials and imprisoning them, before any rioting started from the people, they were just rounding up their political opponents so they couldn't be reelected when they finally decided to start holding elections again. The riots started with protests, and the coup government started killing them then, so of course they turned to rioting and starving what they saw as an illegitimate government.
Imma go with "Source?" on this one. The people you claim weren't yet rioting were aggressively counter-protesting before Morales resigned, and were blockading major infrastructure the exact day Anez took temporary power. The idea that people protested as a response to her is anachronistic nonsense.
Now, ruling despite not having any popular mandate from an election actually is despotic/ monarch-esque. You know who did that? Jeanine Áñez. You're fine with it specifically because she's anti-socialist and her opponent was a socialist.
If you'd like a mandate from the people, you might consider closer attention to others of Bolivia's election laws. It's not as though Moralez won with a supermajority. He won with a plurality, dodging a legally mandated runoff by 0.1% of the vote. Someone who already had controversies, who already had election laws changed specifically in his favor, who declared himself undisputed winner while the counting paused for a day, when it seemed close enough to require a runoff, and the runoff is dodged by a suspiciously thin margin enabled by a huge surge in voting for that specific candidate only after the mystery pause... it's not bad faith to be suspicious of that.

I'm fine with Jeanine Anez because I've not seem a single shred of evidence that she's done what all of you assume she did. If she planned a coup and told the military to take out Moralez, your condemnations would be valid. Did that happen? I have no reason to believe so. I haven't seen any reason to believe Anez was involved at all in Morales' resignation, she just happened to be the highest ranking politician not in MAS. What do you expect her, and every other elected official, to do in that situation? Refuse to take office, dissolve the government, and let a civil war determine the results?
They published their research. Why is the fucking Justice Department of the United States threatening subpoenas about it?
Because that is the legal mechanism by which the government compels information from someone.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Imma go with "Source?" on this one. The people you claim weren't yet rioting were aggressively counter-protesting before Morales resigned, and were blockading major infrastructure the exact day Anez took temporary power. The idea that people protested as a response to her is anachronistic nonsense.

After of course the coup government declared anything the police and military did legal. The coup government told them they could kill protesters as they saw fit, so they did.

If you'd like a mandate from the people, you might consider closer attention to others of Bolivia's election laws. It's not as though Moralez won with a supermajority. He won with a plurality, dodging a legally mandated runoff by 0.1% of the vote. Someone who already had controversies, who already had election laws changed specifically in his favor, who declared himself undisputed winner while the counting paused for a day, when it seemed close enough to require a runoff, and the runoff is dodged by a suspiciously thin margin enabled by a huge surge in voting for that specific candidate only after the mystery pause... it's not bad faith to be suspicious of that.
Oh hey, I didn't know you were big on Donald Trump's big lie.

No, there was nothing suspicious, that's what the analysis done by everyone except the OAS has said. He won hard enough in the areas he wasn't particularly popular in that when they counted the votes where he was expected to slam dunk, he ended up with a slam dunk.

I'm fine with Jeanine Anez because I've not seem a single shred of evidence that she's done what all of you assume she did. If she planned a coup and told the military to take out Moralez, your condemnations would be valid. Did that happen? I have no reason to believe so. I haven't seen any reason to believe Anez was involved at all in Morales' resignation, she just happened to be the highest ranking politician not in MAS. What do you expect her, and every other elected official, to do in that situation? Refuse to take office, dissolve the government, and let a civil war determine the results?
I mean, besides that she called for MAS officials to be arrested, MAS supporters to be killed, initiated mass suppression against her political opponents, and had to be forced to run another election like she promised, that turned out to prove MAS's popularity even harder than the election they overturned. Because they aren't popular, weren't popular, and had no business leading the country.

But hey, she called the Bolivian natives savages, so she can't be all bad, right?


Because that is the legal mechanism by which the government compels information from someone.
They could also have, y'know, read it, since it was published. Throwing a subpoena like that is clear intimidation.
 
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Agema

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-You're correct in that capitalist countries would have a head start, but even when countries have been rebuilt from ground zero, capitalist countries tend to have come up on top. We can compare West and East Germany (feel free to extend this to all of Europe post-WWII if you want), North and South Korea, Hong Kong vs. Mainland China (similar with Taiwan vs. China),
Let's be clear - I'm not going to disagree that socialist economies have fared relatively poorly compared to capitalist overall. However, I might suggest that they were maybe not quite so bad as the superficial evidence would suggest.

Take W v E Germany. Although the Western Allies maltreated West Germany initially after WW2, they also rapidly changed tack and flooded it with investment. East Germany, however, was plundered by the USSR for nearly a decade in the name of reparations. Its growth to ~1980 was not far off West Germany, albeit from a much lower mid-50s start point. It then completely came off the rails in the 1980s, as the Soviet Union melted down and took a load of its associated economies with it. Plus that the USSR was more than a little controlling and authoritarian over its satellite states; nearly all European Comecon nations knew that the USSR would not accept certain reforms and policies, as brutally demonstrated to Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Thus there is not only an economic dimension, but a wider political one. Thus again, we might reasonably surmise that East Germany was placed under substantial external limitations that West Germany was not.

and recently, I've seen the Cuba vs. Singapore analogy.
I do not see any meaningful comparison between Cuba and Singapore. Completely different situations and economies.

If we define "post-empire" as the end of WWII, I'm not sure if capitalism can said to have had dominance per se.
It did. The USA alone was over 40% of global GDP in 1950; add the nascent EEC countries, UK, Japan, Canada, Aus & NZ, upwards of 60%, even 70%. The Eastern Bloc nations, by contrast, are estimated around 15%.That is titanically dominant.

And much of that, of course, reflects greater technological advancement.
 

Silvanus

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If you'd like a mandate from the people, you might consider closer attention to others of Bolivia's election laws. It's not as though Moralez won with a supermajority. He won with a plurality, dodging a legally mandated runoff by 0.1% of the vote. Someone who already had controversies, who already had election laws changed specifically in his favor, who declared himself undisputed winner while the counting paused for a day, when it seemed close enough to require a runoff, and the runoff is dodged by a suspiciously thin margin enabled by a huge surge in voting for that specific candidate only after the mystery pause... it's not bad faith to be suspicious of that.
OK, so we're back to unsubstantiated fraud allegations when an election doesn't go the way you want.

He was over 10% ahead of the second place candidate.

I'm fine with Jeanine Anez because I've not seem a single shred of evidence that she's done what all of you assume she did. If she planned a coup and told the military to take out Moralez, your condemnations would be valid. Did that happen? I have no reason to believe so. I haven't seen any reason to believe Anez was involved at all in Morales' resignation, she just happened to be the highest ranking politician not in MAS. What do you expect her, and every other elected official, to do in that situation? Refuse to take office, dissolve the government, and let a civil war determine the results?
I expect her to let the victor of a democratic election assume office.
 
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Trunkage

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Do you recall when she was sworn in?
Well, I remember the US putting her there

What I do find really weird about this puppet is that she gave it up after a couple of years. Normally they just hold power for as long as they can
 

crimson5pheonix

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Well, I remember the US putting her there

What I do find really weird about this puppet is that she gave it up after a couple of years. Normally they just hold power for as long as they can
She tried. The people rioted and became ungovernable, so she had to run another election.
 
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