Bolivia's Jenine Áñez finally allows election effectively at gunpoint, loses and is going to jail

Trunkage

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She tried. The people rioted and became ungovernable, so she had to run another election.
The normal way things go is that cracked down on these protester til they win. Eg.Saddam. Usually with the backing of the US like in Iraq.

Like, she tried. Massive censorship and police being immune from being charge for crackdowns. Despite all the riots in Hong Kong, China still WON. They persisted until they got what they wanted an dismissed criticism. It usually works
 

crimson5pheonix

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The normal way things go is that cracked down on these protester til they win. Eg.Saddam. Usually with the backing of the US like in Iraq.

Like, she tried. Massive censorship and police being immune from being charge for crackdowns. Despite all the riots in Hong Kong, China still WON. They persisted until they got what they wanted an dismissed criticism. It usually works
Well it didn't work here. But the citizens of Bolivia are extremely well organized.
 

Silvanus

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You're gonna have to be more specific, and it's still not going to be a scrap of evidence she took Morales out of office.
Righto, so you believe those who overthrew Morales and those who assumed office immediately afterwards had no coordination or knowledge between one another? That takes credulity a bit far.
 

Seanchaidh

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You're gonna have to be more specific, and it's still not going to be a scrap of evidence she took Morales out of office.
She didn't need to have a direct hand in invalidating the election in order to reify its invalidation by assuming office and attempting to extinguish the rightful protests.
 
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tstorm823

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Righto, so you believe those who overthrew Morales and those who assumed office immediately afterwards had no coordination or knowledge between one another? That takes credulity a bit far.
I disagree. I don't think any sane person would think Anez was in an enviable position in power after Morales resigned. The military and police leadership are the ones that pressured Morales out, is it really so strange to think they didn't want to personally take his position? Or maybe they didn't think they could even if they wanted to? Why is the only reasonable explanation to you specifically conspiracy with Anez? Why is it not possible that people wanted Morales and MAS out, and weren't planning on one specific replacement? She was the first non-MAS person in the line of legal succession, she was the exact the person you land on if the goal is "we don't care who, just not MAS."

Which of these sounds more likely? Option 1) mastermind plans a coup to put themselves in power, then organizes a redo on the election, passes back power to the party that was coup'd and personally goes to jail. Option 2) military forces Morales out of office without an outside mastermind, lets the resulting mess fall into someone else's lap, and now all of you celebrate while the people who were shoved into the position of averting a civil war during a pandemic without popular support get arrested for the sin of not being MAS members.
 

Seanchaidh

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Option 2) military forces Morales out of office without an outside mastermind, lets the resulting mess fall into someone else's lap, and now all of you celebrate while the people who were shoved into the position of averting a civil war during a pandemic without popular support get arrested for the sin of not being MAS members.
delusional
 
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crimson5pheonix

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I disagree. I don't think any sane person would think Anez was in an enviable position in power after Morales resigned. The military and police leadership are the ones that pressured Morales out, is it really so strange to think they didn't want to personally take his position? Or maybe they didn't think they could even if they wanted to? Why is the only reasonable explanation to you specifically conspiracy with Anez? Why is it not possible that people wanted Morales and MAS out, and weren't planning on one specific replacement? She was the first non-MAS person in the line of legal succession, she was the exact the person you land on if the goal is "we don't care who, just not MAS."

Which of these sounds more likely? Option 1) mastermind plans a coup to put themselves in power, then organizes a redo on the election, passes back power to the party that was coup'd and personally goes to jail. Option 2) military forces Morales out of office without an outside mastermind, lets the resulting mess fall into someone else's lap, and now all of you celebrate while the people who were shoved into the position of averting a civil war during a pandemic without popular support get arrested for the sin of not being MAS members.
If that were the case, she didn't have to massacre the citizens, delay an election until she rounded up all the MAS people she could to imprison or kill them, or take so much glee in taking over the country.

Like I said, it's a blast listening to your opinions on this with just how little you understand about the situation.
 

tstorm823

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If that were the case, she didn't have to massacre the citizens, delay an election until she rounded up all the MAS people she could to imprison or kill them, or take so much glee in taking over the country.

Like I said, it's a blast listening to your opinions on this with just how little you understand about the situation.
You seriously think "she has a bible" is persuasive here? You're repeating your nonsense and adding "and she likes Jesus!" to the accusations... not compelling.
 

crimson5pheonix

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You seriously think "she has a bible" is persuasive here? You're repeating your nonsense and adding "and she likes Jesus!" to the accusations... not compelling.
I mean, whenever the receipts show up, like linking to the massacres she allowed and gave preemptive pardon for, you disappear. I figured I'd just bring up the part you do actually care about, she's a proud Catholic here to kill the natives if they don't turn to Jesus.

I know you like that sort of thing, but the rest of us don't.
 

Trunkage

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I mean, whenever the receipts show up, like linking to the massacres she allowed and gave preemptive pardon for, you disappear. I figured I'd just bring up the part you do actually care about, she's a proud Catholic here to kill the natives if they don't turn to Jesus.

I know you like that sort of thing, but the rest of us don't.
FB_IMG_1620332416920.jpg
 

Silvanus

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I disagree. I don't think any sane person would think Anez was in an enviable position in power after Morales resigned. The military and police leadership are the ones that pressured Morales out, is it really so strange to think they didn't want to personally take his position? Or maybe they didn't think they could even if they wanted to? Why is the only reasonable explanation to you specifically conspiracy with Anez?
She was in an unenviable position because of country-wide protest and disruption, which was not expected.

The military and police didn't want the job; they handed it to someone sympathetic to various wealthy interests. These things aren't figured out with literal shadowy-room conspiracies. But the idea they didn't communicate, didn't contact the person to whom they would hand the position, is absurd.

Why is it not possible that people wanted Morales and MAS out, and weren't planning on one specific replacement? She was the first non-MAS person in the line of legal succession, she was the exact the person you land on if the goal is "we don't care who, just not MAS."
OK, and why is it a reasonable position to discount everyone in the legal succession from the largest and most popular party in the country?

If they had zero idea about replacement, even as an interim, then they're utter morons. Overthrowing a government with no idea where authority then rests?

Which of these sounds more likely? Option 1) mastermind plans a coup to put themselves in power, then organizes a redo on the election, passes back power to the party that was coup'd and personally goes to jail. Option 2) military forces Morales out of office without an outside mastermind, lets the resulting mess fall into someone else's lap, and now all of you celebrate while the people who were shoved into the position of averting a civil war during a pandemic without popular support get arrested for the sin of not being MAS members.
Both are slightly ridiculous fictional constructs, so neither are particularly likely. Neither of those happened.
 

tstorm823

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she's a proud Catholic here to kill the natives if they don't turn to Jesus.
You just linked an article that says she's an evangelical who makes Catholics uncomfortable.
She was in an unenviable position because of country-wide protest and disruption, which was not expected.
It was ongoing. There were pro-Morales protestors in the streets before he was told to step down. Order of events, people. Order of events.
The military and police didn't want the job; they handed it to someone sympathetic to various wealthy interests. These things aren't figured out with literal shadowy-room conspiracies. But the idea they didn't communicate, didn't contact the person to whom they would hand the position, is absurd.
How do you imagine that conversation would go. "He there! We're the military. We're gonna force out the president at gunpoint, and let you take over in his place. Unless you don't want us to, and then we just won't do it." I don't think that happened. I think if the police and military contact you to say they're overthrowing someone by force and installing you as president, you are basically at gunpoint yourself.
OK, and why is it a reasonable position to discount everyone in the legal succession from the largest and most popular party in the country?
I don't think it is. I don't know discounting just Morales was reasonable, though I appreciate why they wanted him to step down. And I can see the logic following that decision to get someone from a different political party in charge of the transition. And with that perfectly reasonable explanation for how power might have fallen to Anez, and in the absence of any evidence that Anez made the decisions that put her there, it seems sort of ridiculous to just assume conspiracy. And also, the people most aggressively assuming she was in on a conspiracy are the communists here, who think the CIA is in the shadows every time a socialist loses power.
If they had zero idea about replacement, even as an interim, then they're utter morons. Overthrowing a government with no idea where authority then rests?
It doesn't matter if they had an idea, it matters if the idea was hers. Being picked by someone else to be the interim president is still very, very different than planning a coup to put yourself there.
 

crimson5pheonix

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You just linked an article that says she's an evangelical who makes Catholics uncomfortable.

It was ongoing. There were pro-Morales protestors in the streets before he was told to step down. Order of events, people. Order of events.

How do you imagine that conversation would go. "He there! We're the military. We're gonna force out the president at gunpoint, and let you take over in his place. Unless you don't want us to, and then we just won't do it." I don't think that happened. I think if the police and military contact you to say they're overthrowing someone by force and installing you as president, you are basically at gunpoint yourself.

I don't think it is. I don't know discounting just Morales was reasonable, though I appreciate why they wanted him to step down. And I can see the logic following that decision to get someone from a different political party in charge of the transition. And with that perfectly reasonable explanation for how power might have fallen to Anez, and in the absence of any evidence that Anez made the decisions that put her there, it seems sort of ridiculous to just assume conspiracy. And also, the people most aggressively assuming she was in on a conspiracy are the communists here, who think the CIA is in the shadows every time a socialist loses power.

It doesn't matter if they had an idea, it matters if the idea was hers. Being picked by someone else to be the interim president is still very, very different than planning a coup to put yourself there.
You're also, possibly deliberately, not reading close enough because literally in the same post where you blow off how happy she was to take power, you try and paint her as a beleaguered bureaucrat just doing her job under as much threat as the guy she ordered the arrest of as soon as she took office. You know, like you're complaining about with MAS now.

Except of course MAS didn't order a bunch of citizens massacred, making them wildly different in any culpability.
 

Silvanus

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It was ongoing. There were pro-Morales protestors in the streets before he was told to step down. Order of events, people. Order of events.
Scale, people. Scale. There were "protesters in the streets", yes. There wasn't an enormous nation-wide protest necessitating shutdown.

How do you imagine that conversation would go. "He there! We're the military. We're gonna force out the president at gunpoint, and let you take over in his place. Unless you don't want us to, and then we just won't do it." I don't think that happened. I think if the police and military contact you to say they're overthrowing someone by force and installing you as president, you are basically at gunpoint yourself.
"The military and security forces are ready to move, as long as we know there'll be someone sympathetic and helpful to fill the void".

"I can assure you there will be".

Or something along those lines.

I don't think it is. I don't know discounting just Morales was reasonable, though I appreciate why they wanted him to step down. And I can see the logic following that decision to get someone from a different political party in charge of the transition. And with that perfectly reasonable explanation for how power might have fallen to Anez, and in the absence of any evidence that Anez made the decisions that put her there, it seems sort of ridiculous to just assume conspiracy.
I can see the logic. But it's deeply undemocratic logic any way you cut it. There's no way to get around the fact that the decision was made (without legal basis) to discount every candidate from the most popular party.


And also, the people most aggressively assuming she was in on a conspiracy are the communists here, who think the CIA is in the shadows every time a socialist loses power.
This is a complete non-point. The people most aggressively assuming that everything was perfectly fine with the coup are the laissez-faire free-marketeers here, who think Antifa are in the shadows every time a faded reality television show star loses power.

It doesn't matter if they had an idea, it matters if the idea was hers. Being picked by someone else to be the interim president is still very, very different than planning a coup to put yourself there.
So, they had an idea... but didn't talk to her beforehand? Then still: morons.
 

tstorm823

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Except of course MAS didn't order a bunch of citizens massacred, making them wildly different in any culpability.
Unless you count blockading entry and exit to a city of 6 million people, causing shortages of food, fuel, and medicine during a pandemic.
So, they had an idea... but didn't talk to her beforehand? Then still: morons.
You understand that I'm offering the only explanation I can think of where people weren't just morons. Anez planning a coup and then peacefully transitioning power back to people who then throw her in jail would mean she's a moron. The military planning a coup to take power away long term and then following the legal line of succession so that things go right back to normal within a year would also be morons. The military only caring about getting rid of Morales and being roughly indifferent to what comes next? That makes their actions make sense.
 

MrCalavera

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Like, she tried. Massive censorship and police being immune from being charge for crackdowns. Despite all the riots in Hong Kong, China still WON. They persisted until they got what they wanted an dismissed criticism. It usually works
Very different situations.
Hong Kong is a single city vs. entire Chinese state. In Bolivia, by careful estimates, about half of the country wanted Anez gone.
 

Trunkage

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Very different situations.
Hong Kong is a single city vs. entire Chinese state. In Bolivia, by careful estimates, about half of the country wanted Anez gone.
My assumption is that a city would be EASIER to coordinate, particularly one that doesnt have to account for the difference in race. Like, as far as I'm aware, it's not just natives against Anez