Borderlands 2 *SPOILERS* *NO SERIOUSLY, SPOILERS*

Smeggs

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Denamic said:
You're being the racist one here, insisting that his skin colour matters.
A man should not be judged by the color of his skin, but by the weight of his actions.

Word.

And Roland's actions demanded Jack kill him with extreme prejudice. That's just how it is. If any of the other three members of the original group had been qualified to lead the Crimson Raiders (A fridge with arms, a sexy space-witch, and a drunk sniper? lolno) then they would have met the same fate. Roland happened to be the man with the elite military training, happened to be the most average of any of the original heroes, and just so happened to be black.

Jack hunted down Lillith for a while there too until she faked her own death. That should tell you Jack doesn't screw around, he's there to eradicate everybody who is not part of Hyperion. It's like a given in these stories that if you are not leading the rebels, then the actual leader of said rebels will most certainly die, and everything will fall to you.

Trying to claim this is a racism trope is idiotic, as stated, it made the most sense that the far better equipped tyrranical asshole with a space station and an endless supply of guns, robots, and disposable soldiers would kill the puny resistance leader. Hell, that was literally Jack's main goal the entire time; to kill Roland and cause the CR to fall apart. It isn't like it should come as a shocker, it was stated multiple times-even by Jack-that he was trying to kill Roland.
 

Kopikatsu

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ruedyn said:
I don't care about his skin colour, just kind of sad it happened. Was glad to kill Jack after that as well.

Also, what does Jack look like without the mask?
He has a Vault symbol branded on his face underneath the mask. Never explained.

As for the New-U stations...Jack shut them off. They're Hyperion tech and Jack is sort of President of Hyperion. Notice how all the Hyperion affiliates come back after being killed (Sheriff and such) but none of the Crimson Raiders do (Roland, Helena Pierce, Sgt Ross, etc).

As for why the BL2 crew can use the New-U stations...

At the beginning, they're working for Hyperion so Jack wants them alive to carry out his plan. Then after he no longer needs them, Angel goes rogue and could have easily used her power to reinstate the current four. Then Angel dies, but Jack wants to kill the Vault Hunters over and over and over again, implied by various ECHO messages and the missions that he gives you (Like the 'kill yourself' one) and thinks himself invincible.
 

RedDeadFred

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I was pissed too but honestly, it really just helped affirm that Jack is one evil bastard.

Also, I was more torn up about Bloodwing. Him and I went through a lot in the first game. I was apologizing to him every time I throughout that fight. I was so happy when Mordecai tranquilized him but then Jack just ripped in away.

I'm not really sure why I came to this thread. I haven't finished the game. I have actually only finished just up to when Roland died so I guess you could have been spoiling something else. I guess I just figured that this would be what you were talking about since I just finished playing that part.

Anyway, time to abandon thread in case spoilers come up about things I haven't seen yet. I did my best not to look at any other posts but OP's so nothing's ruined for me.

One last thing. That entire fight and the part leading up to it was the most fun I've had in a video game in a very long time.
 

uhddh

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When Roland died I powered through the story just to finish Jack. Normally I grind down the sidequests as I get them, but no. First he kills Bloodwing, then he kills Roland. Yes I killed Angel but I didn't want to. She asked me too. Then he kidnaps Lilith and well. I just wanted to put that bullet in his head. No Jack, you may never finish you're speech at the end.
 

Tuesday Night Fever

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Saviordd1 said:
Within reason yes, but the thing is Jack is a copy paste of a lot of other villains; from a purely objective standpoint he CAN'T be as good because he IS the older villains.
With regard to the totally non-applicable gay bashing example, I have nothing to add beyond what Abandon4093 said since I would really just be repeating his points, albeit probably not as well.

As for this quoted point, however... I'm actually genuinely curious as to what character you'd point at as being a complete paragon of originality, borrowing nothing from previous villains and worthy of such high praise... because frankly, I think you'd have to go really far back to find one that people here can't tear down in the same manner you've torn down Handsome Jack.

Not that it matters whatsoever. At the end of the day, Vanitas likes Bubbles is gonna keep on enjoying the character, just as I'm going to keep on enjoying the various characters I like, regardless of what someone on the internet who's unwilling to accept even the existence of dissenting opinions on completely subjective matters happens to think.
 

Elamdri

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Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
aba1 said:
Wait so it isn't ok to kill him off because he is black.
No, it isn't ok to kill him off because he's my favorite character. The fact that they've killed off the only black guy in the game is even worse. Seriously.
So the fact that he's black matters?
Because it's a common trope that the token black guy is the one that get's killed. Roland is the only black guy in the borderlands universe and they killed him. It's like every bad horror movie ever written.
Oh, so he's a token character.
Here I was sad that a character I liked died, but it seems I should actually have been outraged because he's black.
I'm sorry, I was mistaken in not giving a shit about his skin colour.
You're mis-understanding me. I'm upset that:

A: They killed my favorite character

and

B: They doubled down on one of the worst story tropes ever.
No, the trope that black guys die first is because of racism, as I'm sure you know. Black people were considered more expendable just because they're black, etc.. Roland was one of the most important friendly characters in the game, being the leader of the crimson raiders, the sole opposition to Jack.
You're being the racist one here, insisting that his skin colour matters.
The color of his skin wouldn't matter if we didn't live in a world where hundreds of years of racism has affected every part of our culture.

Yes, Roland doesn't fit the stereotypical token black character who gets killed off in most movies, and yet he's the only black guy on an entire planet full of people AND he's the only hero from the 1st game to get killed?

I'm not saying that Gearbox played a race card, but at some fundamental level, race and racism has had an impact on the outcome of the game, just by virtue of the fact that Roland is the only black guy on all of Pandora. Just like all other media, it's made by white men to be consumed by white men, and therefore, the cast is predominantly white and male.
 

Denamic

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Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
aba1 said:
Wait so it isn't ok to kill him off because he is black.
No, it isn't ok to kill him off because he's my favorite character. The fact that they've killed off the only black guy in the game is even worse. Seriously.
So the fact that he's black matters?
Because it's a common trope that the token black guy is the one that get's killed. Roland is the only black guy in the borderlands universe and they killed him. It's like every bad horror movie ever written.
Oh, so he's a token character.
Here I was sad that a character I liked died, but it seems I should actually have been outraged because he's black.
I'm sorry, I was mistaken in not giving a shit about his skin colour.
You're mis-understanding me. I'm upset that:

A: They killed my favorite character

and

B: They doubled down on one of the worst story tropes ever.
No, the trope that black guys die first is because of racism, as I'm sure you know. Black people were considered more expendable just because they're black, etc.. Roland was one of the most important friendly characters in the game, being the leader of the crimson raiders, the sole opposition to Jack.
You're being the racist one here, insisting that his skin colour matters.
The color of his skin wouldn't matter if we didn't live in a world where hundreds of years of racism has affected every part of our culture.

Yes, Roland doesn't fit the stereotypical token black character who gets killed off in most movies, and yet he's the only black guy on an entire planet full of people AND he's the only hero from the 1st game to get killed?

I'm not saying that Gearbox played a race card, but at some fundamental level, race and racism has had an impact on the outcome of the game, just by virtue of the fact that Roland is the only black guy on all of Pandora. Just like all other media, it's made by white men to be consumed by white men, and therefore, the cast is predominantly white and male.
You really don't even realize how much of a racist you're being right now, do you?
The irony is incredibly thick here.
 

Elamdri

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Denamic said:
You really don't even realize how much of a racist you're being right now, do you?
The irony is incredibly thick here.
So you don't believe that a culture of entertainment where the majority of any TV cast is white is not a byproduct of hundreds of years of racism in America? Because if so, that's really cute and I have a bridge to sell you.
 

Denamic

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Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
You really don't even realize how much of a racist you're being right now, do you?
The irony is incredibly thick here.
So you don't believe that a culture of entertainment where the majority of any TV cast is white is not a byproduct of hundreds of years of racism in America? Because if so, that's really cute and I have a bridge to sell you.
I don't believe I said anything even remotely like that, not to mention that it's irrelevant.
 

CpT_x_Killsteal

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*Bloodwing dies*

Me: NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Mordecai: NOOOOOOOOOOO!

He was my fave in Borderlands. I almost cried when Blood died. That really amde me hate the sunuvabitch...
 

Elamdri

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Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
You really don't even realize how much of a racist you're being right now, do you?
The irony is incredibly thick here.
So you don't believe that a culture of entertainment where the majority of any TV cast is white is not a byproduct of hundreds of years of racism in America? Because if so, that's really cute and I have a bridge to sell you.
I don't believe I said anything even remotely like that, not to mention that it's irrelevant.
Well that's pretty much what you're accusing me of being a racist over, because that's my goddamn argument.
 

Denamic

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Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
You really don't even realize how much of a racist you're being right now, do you?
The irony is incredibly thick here.
So you don't believe that a culture of entertainment where the majority of any TV cast is white is not a byproduct of hundreds of years of racism in America? Because if so, that's really cute and I have a bridge to sell you.
I don't believe I said anything even remotely like that, not to mention that it's irrelevant.
Well that's pretty much what you're accusing me of being a racist over, because that's my goddamn argument.
Would you have made your argument if Roland was white?
Would it have been racist if Brick, the hulking brute that leads a band of bandits, were black?
The fact you even consider their skin colour to matter one way or the other is fucking racist.
 

Elamdri

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Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
You really don't even realize how much of a racist you're being right now, do you?
The irony is incredibly thick here.
So you don't believe that a culture of entertainment where the majority of any TV cast is white is not a byproduct of hundreds of years of racism in America? Because if so, that's really cute and I have a bridge to sell you.
I don't believe I said anything even remotely like that, not to mention that it's irrelevant.
Well that's pretty much what you're accusing me of being a racist over, because that's my goddamn argument.
Would you have made your argument if Roland was white?
Would it have been racist if Brick, the hulking brute that leads a band of bandits, were black?
The fact you even consider their skin colour to matter one way or the other is fucking racist.
Oh, I see what your argument is.

No. The skin color matters because it outlines a point: Roland is the only black guy on Pandora.

If there were more black people in the game, then I wouldn't complain about potential racism. The problem is that when you have an ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET full of people and only ONE black dude and HE is the one that gets killed...now there is a potential problem.

The fact that he was my favorite character in the game is also kinda a kick in the shins on top of that.

Edit: 5 Bucks says Salvador dies in Borderlands 3.
 

Denamic

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Elamdri said:
No. The skin color matters because it outlines a point: Roland is the only black guy on Pandora.

If there were more black people in the game, then I wouldn't complain about potential racism. The problem is that when you have an ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET full of people and only ONE black dude and HE is the one that gets killed...now there is a potential problem.
Again, why does his skin colour matter?
And you didn't answer my questions.
Edit: 5 Bucks says Salvador dies in Borderlands 3.
Good job, well done.
Now you're not only unwittingly racist, but actively racist.
 

Elamdri

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Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
No. The skin color matters because it outlines a point: Roland is the only black guy on Pandora.

If there were more black people in the game, then I wouldn't complain about potential racism. The problem is that when you have an ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET full of people and only ONE black dude and HE is the one that gets killed...now there is a potential problem.
Again, why does his skin colour matter?
And you didn't answer my questions.
Edit: 5 Bucks says Salvador dies in Borderlands 3.
Good job, well done.
Now you're not only unwittingly racist, but actively racist.
I just said why his skin color matters: Because he's the ONLY black guy in the game. As it turns out, the "any argument at all predicated on skin color is inherently racist" spiel is bullshit put forth by people who believe we live in a post-racial society. But that's objectively false. America is not a post-racial society and skin color matters because we live in a world where it has been made an issue. If our ancestors were decent people, you and I wouldn't be having this argument. But they weren't. They were racists and created a culture where even without thinking about it, we create narratives where we have a whole fictional planet full of people, and yet only one of them is black. That's a problem.

Now, I don't think that Gearbox was like "Fuck black people, lets create a whole world full of white people and then make one person black to placate people who would call us racist" but the culture in which we live certainly has had an impact on the game, just like the majority of TV, movies and games. Roland is Borderlands token black guy, and they went and killed him off. That depresses me greatly because Borderlands is an excellent game and should be above crap like that.
 

Baconmonster723

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Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
Denamic said:
Elamdri said:
aba1 said:
Wait so it isn't ok to kill him off because he is black.
No, it isn't ok to kill him off because he's my favorite character. The fact that they've killed off the only black guy in the game is even worse. Seriously.
So the fact that he's black matters?
Because it's a common trope that the token black guy is the one that get's killed. Roland is the only black guy in the borderlands universe and they killed him. It's like every bad horror movie ever written.
Oh, so he's a token character.
Here I was sad that a character I liked died, but it seems I should actually have been outraged because he's black.
I'm sorry, I was mistaken in not giving a shit about his skin colour.
You're mis-understanding me. I'm upset that:

A: They killed my favorite character

and

B: They doubled down on one of the worst story tropes ever.
No, the trope that black guys die first is because of racism, as I'm sure you know. Black people were considered more expendable just because they're black, etc.. Roland was one of the most important friendly characters in the game, being the leader of the crimson raiders, the sole opposition to Jack.
You're being the racist one here, insisting that his skin colour matters.
The color of his skin wouldn't matter if we didn't live in a world where hundreds of years of racism has affected every part of our culture.

Yes, Roland doesn't fit the stereotypical token black character who gets killed off in most movies, and yet he's the only black guy on an entire planet full of people AND he's the only hero from the 1st game to get killed?

I'm not saying that Gearbox played a race card, but at some fundamental level, race and racism has had an impact on the outcome of the game, just by virtue of the fact that Roland is the only black guy on all of Pandora. Just like all other media, it's made by white men to be consumed by white men, and therefore, the cast is predominantly white and male.
It comes down to this. Was he killed because he was black or was he killed because he was a significant character and it was supposed to be a kick in the nads. To me it is clearly the latter. Therefore the fact that he is black plays not part in it. There is no basis to call trope on this when it clearly has nothing to do with his race. I feel you're really, really, grasping at straws here.
 

Elamdri

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Baconmonster723 said:
It comes down to this. Was he killed because he was black or was he killed because he was a significant character and it was supposed to be a kick in the nads. To me it is clearly the latter. Therefore the fact that he is black plays not part in it. There is no basis to call trope on this when it clearly has nothing to do with his race. I feel you're really, really, grasping at straws here.
I'm not saying that he was killed because he was black. I'm saying that the problem is that Roland appears to be the only black guy in the entire universe, and that's a problem. It's tokenism.
 

Kopikatsu

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Elamdri said:
Baconmonster723 said:
It comes down to this. Was he killed because he was black or was he killed because he was a significant character and it was supposed to be a kick in the nads. To me it is clearly the latter. Therefore the fact that he is black plays not part in it. There is no basis to call trope on this when it clearly has nothing to do with his race. I feel you're really, really, grasping at straws here.
I'm not saying that he was killed because he was black. I'm saying that the problem is that Roland appears to be the only black guy in the entire universe, and that's a problem. It's tokenism.
Roland was originally planned to be a white guy.

But anywho, technically he's only the only black guy on Pandora (If you're not counting Hammerlock) and he's an offworlder. If there were no black people on Pandora to start with, then the set of genes needed for that skin tone don't exist.

It's just a thing.
 

Elamdri

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Kopikatsu said:
Elamdri said:
Baconmonster723 said:
It comes down to this. Was he killed because he was black or was he killed because he was a significant character and it was supposed to be a kick in the nads. To me it is clearly the latter. Therefore the fact that he is black plays not part in it. There is no basis to call trope on this when it clearly has nothing to do with his race. I feel you're really, really, grasping at straws here.
I'm not saying that he was killed because he was black. I'm saying that the problem is that Roland appears to be the only black guy in the entire universe, and that's a problem. It's tokenism.
Roland was originally planned to be a white guy.

But anywho, technically he's only the only black guy on Pandora (If you're not counting Hammerlock) and he's an offworlder. If there were no black people on Pandora to start with, then the set of genes needed for that skin tone don't exist.

It's just a thing.
Which is my point. It's a problem with media where they plan an all white cast, suddenly realize that they have an all white cast, and then re-cast one of the characters as a minority because somehow that makes it better.

Also, Hammerlock's not black, he's just tan. He's making fun of guys like Ernest Hemmingway.

Also, there are no natives to Pandora, everyone who came there originally worked for Dahl.