BREAKING: Sam Wilson, Formerly "The Falcon," is Marvel's New Captain America

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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Mr. Omega said:
Cap is black and Thor is a woman. All we need now is for Iron Man or the Hulk to come out of the closet and the bigots "Anti-PC" crowd's heads will all explode in rage. And nerdom will be better for it.
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..heh....

unrelated but I read that "Powers" is getting a TV adaptation....the female side kick originally blond and white is now aparently played by a black actress

and I think its great
 

Something Amyss

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PsychicTaco115 said:
That's all cool with me, I was referring more about Thor and his change

I dunno, it just feels odd that he's NOW deemed "unworthy" of his hammer and has to have it passed on

If it's more explained in the comics than all is well but eh, just feels odd
Maybe, but I remember the bit where Thor was banished and a new Thor was appointed in the 90s, so it doesn't seem that odd for the comics to me. It doesn't seem out of sorts, and I'm sure he'll come back. And him earning the hammer again could be an interesting B-story in and of itself.

Baresark said:
The power of Thor, not "be called Thor". I remind you that others who have wielded it did not all of the suddenly become known as Thor. Beta Ray Bill, Captain America, Storm, Eric Masterson, Odin, Bor, etc.... they were all called their respective names, but got the powers inherent in wielding the hammer.
Except Eric Masterson. Masterson was Thor for like three years. Not counting when he was merged with Thor, for the record. He was actually called Thor in the comics, before getting his own magic weapon and becoming a new hero.
 

Something Amyss

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RatGouf said:
And when I talk Captain America, Thor, & Iron-Man I'm referring to solely Steve Rogers, Thor Odinson, & Tony Stark. Everything else that might make these 3 look bad as white males might as well be removed in a retcon.
And you're welcome to ignore everyone and everything that doesn't to support your beliefs, but that only makes the beliefs seem more absurd. Sorry. It's like a special version of "No True Scotsman." The REAL Captain America wouldn't do this, even if it was Steve Rogers who did it.

DeimosMasque said:
Actually, Steve became Captain America again after Winter Soldier/Cap 'died' during Fear Itself. The Head of SHIELD became Daisy Johnson and then later Maria Hill.
I stand corrected. Though I am still reading hi listed as head of SHIELD. I thought at least Hill came before him, not after. Am I incorrect there?
 

PsychicTaco115

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Zachary Amaranth said:
PsychicTaco115 said:
That's all cool with me, I was referring more about Thor and his change

I dunno, it just feels odd that he's NOW deemed "unworthy" of his hammer and has to have it passed on

If it's more explained in the comics than all is well but eh, just feels odd
Maybe, but I remember the bit where Thor was banished and a new Thor was appointed in the 90s, so it doesn't seem that odd for the comics to me. It doesn't seem out of sorts, and I'm sure he'll come back. And him earning the hammer again could be an interesting B-story in and of itself.
I dunno if the movie audience would want to see that if they're reading this comic; the Thor movie dealt with that theme already so I dunno

Plus, this whole time I forgot we were talking about comic books; shit like this can fly XD
 

DeimosMasque

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Jun 30, 2010
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Zachary Amaranth said:
DeimosMasque said:
Actually, Steve became Captain America again after Winter Soldier/Cap 'died' during Fear Itself. The Head of SHIELD became Daisy Johnson and then later Maria Hill.
I stand corrected. Though I am still reading him listed as head of SHIELD. I thought at least Hill came before him, not after. Am I incorrect there?
They never technically made him "not" Head of SHIELD but before him was Tony Stark, then Norman Osborn (in what I view to be an extremely underrated storyline), then himself, then Daisy Johnson (appointed by Steve) then Maria Hill (who was Tony's right hand woman) after Johnson compromised herself.

I have a feeling Marvel sort of just forgot that he was also head of SHIELD when they gave him back the flag.
 

Jacked Assassin

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Zachary Amaranth said:
RatGouf said:
And when I talk Captain America, Thor, & Iron-Man I'm referring to solely Steve Rogers, Thor Odinson, & Tony Stark. Everything else that might make these 3 look bad as white males might as well be removed in a retcon.
And you're welcome to ignore everyone and everything that doesn't to support your beliefs, but that only makes the beliefs seem more absurd. Sorry. It's like a special version of "No True Scotsman." The REAL Captain America wouldn't do this, even if it was Steve Rogers who did it.
So according to you Steve Rogers did in fact fight Japanese Vampires despite the fact he was also frozen in ice? And Retcons never happen? How is that not absurd?
 

otakon17

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You know, passing the mantle is fine. But the hell is gonna happen to Steve? The man is in his 70's or so without the Super Soldier Serum in his veins.
 

Liberkhaos

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I'm okay with Captain America being black but I am NOT okay with falcon taking the title. Falcon is a cool thing in himself and I always hate when super heroes somehow decide to keep the same job but take someone else's mantle (Like Dick Grayson did.

Also, while they're going from a secondary black character to a mainstream one, I can't help but notice this keeps the Avengers (the incarnation of them I know best anyways)with one black character... I'm probably looking too much into it but I can't help but be bothered by this.
 

FPLOON

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Karadalis said:
Oh look! Its Captain African America! (cause lets face it.. thats what everyone will call him instead of just captain america)
I will now... Thanks! ;)

OT: To be honest, I mostly feel like this right now:
RandV80 said:
I can't really comment on whether that's good or bad, but they're the only fictional medium that works this way. I mean increasing diversity doesn't hurt but there's something that feels very cold and cynical about the way they do it, like it's more a business decision/marketing stunt than any real attempt to increase diversity. Or they want to hit these new markets so they only way they know how is to do these swaps with a popular character.
But, then again...
rbstewart7263 said:
-badass image snip-

He has wings AND a sheild OK this should be badass!
*squees* So... awesome!! I would not be surprised either way if this ended up happening in the MCU... (Huh... I wonder how Bucky feels about all this...)
 

softclocks

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Zachary Amaranth said:
This reminds me of when people complained that Ms. Marvel was now Captain Marvel and complained CM was a girl, forgetting that we'd already had a female (and black) Captain Marvel in the 80s.

In all probability, this is just Marvel being Marvel, not some demographics ploy.
You can't tell the difference between Rambeau calling herself captain Marvel and someone assuming the mantle of Mar-Vell? It's not the same thing. And Phyla-Vell had already been going by the moniker CM a few years before Ms.Marvel, which actually made sense. Unlike Ms.Marvel, whose connection to him was minimal, Phyla stood for more or less the same things that he did and was involved in the Marvel cosmology.
Zachary Amaranth said:
I'd rather see Sam get a promotion. He's one of Steve's oldest friends, dates back decades, and wore the suit in the 60s.
Patriot's just left the YA, and is the logical next CA. The only reason they chose Falcon is because he appeared in the movies and they're hoping to cash in on that.

Zachary Amaranth said:
If it lasts a "few years," it will be a success. This is comics we're talking about.

I'm also curious as to what "normal" is for Captain America right now. Steve Rogers is head of SHIELD, I believe. He hasn't been Captain America since the end of Civil War.
He has been Captain America since the end of the Civil War, what are you talking about?

He was instrumental in both Siege and the heroic age, as well as Hickman's Infinity and Remender's entire run. He's received MUCH more exposure as Captain America post-Pivil war than he did in the years between Onslaught and Civil war....
 

Something Amyss

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PsychicTaco115 said:
I dunno if the movie audience would want to see that if they're reading this comic; the Thor movie dealt with that theme already so I dunno
I sort of wonder how much overlap there is, though, because if they've been fans for a while this probably won't be anything new for them. And if they're not, I wonder if it would really be a deal breaker.

But while I liked the bit from the movie, I think it could probably be done better if stretched out a bit. I mean, I'm probably the wrong party to ask, but it would interest me.

Plus, this whole time I forgot we were talking about comic books; shit like this can fly XD
Well, technically it's just throwing the hammer and catching it.... >.>

DeimosMasque said:
I have a feeling Marvel sort of just forgot that he was also head of SHIELD when they gave him back the flag.
And the funniest thing about that is it wouldn't surprise me any.

RatGouf said:
So according to you Steve Rogers did in fact fight Japanese Vampires despite the fact he was also frozen in ice? And Retcons never happen? How is that not absurd?
Since it's clear you'll put words in my mouth anyway, is there a point to responding?

But you're right. It is absurd. It's also something absurd I didn't say.

I mean, if you're interested in real answers, feel free to ask again. Just stop knocking down Straw Amaranth when you do.

softclocks said:
You can't tell the difference between Rambeau calling herself captain Marvel and someone assuming the mantle of Mar-Vell? It's not the same thing.
It's never the same thing. It's always different.

But again, that wasn't the argument I was addressing. And if it was the point, the dozen or so other examples, including the one you gave, would make that a non-issue.
 

Rozalia1

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Status quo or retcon in a year? Which is more likely?
Always fun to ask friends how all these type of things go.
 

Jacked Assassin

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Zachary Amaranth said:
RatGouf said:
So according to you Steve Rogers did in fact fight Japanese Vampires despite the fact he was also frozen in ice? And Retcons never happen? How is that not absurd?
Since it's clear you'll put words in my mouth anyway, is there a point to responding?

But you're right. It is absurd. It's also something absurd I didn't say.

I mean, if you're interested in real answers, feel free to ask again. Just stop knocking down Straw Amaranth when you do.
You implied it when you wanted to keep all of the history intact & dismissed retcons.

And You had been constantly cherry picking my post.

The whole point of retcons is to remove past history of the characters & start over with those characters. And the best defense you got is the past versions did it.

Remembering bad or goofy history so you can intentionally then be doomed to repeat also makes for bad story writing as its already been done before.
 

NeutralDrow

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Man, all that's been going on in the Marvel universe? Awesome! This definitely feels a step beyond the "token black/woman/etc." superhero additions that have been the norm.

Hope Sam Wilson and crew stick around in their new roles for a while. At the very least, long enough for the crowd to stop crying about Marvel being "PC" and how they're just "pandering" by adding a modicum of racial and sexual diversity to a still overwhelmingly white and male character roster. If that point is ever reached, Marvel will have demonstrated sincerity, the fluidity of legacy character roles will have become the norm, and we'll all be better off.
 

Jacked Assassin

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NeutralDrow said:
Man, all that's been going on in the Marvel universe? Awesome! This definitely feels a step beyond the "token black/woman/etc." superhero additions that have been the norm.

Hope Sam Wilson and crew stick around in their new roles for a while. At the very least, long enough for the crowd to stop crying about Marvel being "PC" and how they're just "pandering" by adding a modicum of racial and sexual diversity to a still overwhelmingly white and male character roster. If that point is ever reached, Marvel will have demonstrated sincerity, the fluidity of legacy character roles will have become the norm, and we'll all be better off.
But why did it have to be Captain America, Thor, or maybe even Iron-Man?

There are plenty of other white male characters I be okay with no longer being white males. I'm okay with Nick Fury now being retconned into a black man. Then again I'd also be offended if Marvel turned Blade white or turned Storm into a man. But I wouldn't get anyone trying to imply or cherry pick that I was racist or sexist about Blade or Storm.
 

NeutralDrow

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RatGouf said:
NeutralDrow said:
Man, all that's been going on in the Marvel universe? Awesome! This definitely feels a step beyond the "token black/woman/etc." superhero additions that have been the norm.

Hope Sam Wilson and crew stick around in their new roles for a while. At the very least, long enough for the crowd to stop crying about Marvel being "PC" and how they're just "pandering" by adding a modicum of racial and sexual diversity to a still overwhelmingly white and male character roster. If that point is ever reached, Marvel will have demonstrated sincerity, the fluidity of legacy character roles will have become the norm, and we'll all be better off.
But why did it have to be Captain America, Thor, or maybe even Iron-Man?

There are plenty of other white male characters I be okay with no longer being white males. I'm okay with Nick Fury now being retconned into a black man. Then again I'd also be offended if Marvel turned Blade white or turned Storm into a man. But I wouldn't get anyone trying to imply or cherry pick that I was racist or sexist about Blade or Storm.
I haven't been paying attention past the first thread page, but...if you're saying stuff like the bolded part, maybe that's where you're getting accusations of cherry-picking? It feels pretty arbitrary and presumptuous.
 

Jacked Assassin

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NeutralDrow said:
RatGouf said:
NeutralDrow said:
Man, all that's been going on in the Marvel universe? Awesome! This definitely feels a step beyond the "token black/woman/etc." superhero additions that have been the norm.

Hope Sam Wilson and crew stick around in their new roles for a while. At the very least, long enough for the crowd to stop crying about Marvel being "PC" and how they're just "pandering" by adding a modicum of racial and sexual diversity to a still overwhelmingly white and male character roster. If that point is ever reached, Marvel will have demonstrated sincerity, the fluidity of legacy character roles will have become the norm, and we'll all be better off.
But why did it have to be Captain America, Thor, or maybe even Iron-Man?

There are plenty of other white male characters I be okay with no longer being white males. I'm okay with Nick Fury now being retconned into a black man. Then again I'd also be offended if Marvel turned Blade white or turned Storm into a man. But I wouldn't get anyone trying to imply or cherry pick that I was racist or sexist about Blade or Storm.
I haven't been paying attention past the first thread page, but...if you're saying stuff like the bolded part, maybe that's where you're getting accusations of cherry-picking? It feels pretty arbitrary and presumptuous.
I don't remember anyone calling me a cherry picker. I remember someone saying I had a straw man argument because they implied it. And I called that poster a cherry picker.

But even then why would you consider disregarding the rest of my post for the part you made in bold? That kind of disregards the characters I prefer as white males from characters I'm okay with despite skin tone or gender.

Or would you honestly expect me to defend a white male Mandarin for the same reason I would "magically" defend a white male Nick Fury?
 

Something Amyss

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RatGouf said:
You implied it when you wanted to keep all of the history intact & dismissed retcons.
No, I implied your personal retcons didn't matter to anyone else. Actually, I outright said it. You didn't specify Vampire Japanese, you said "everything else" might as well be removed as retcon. That's in stark contrast (not Stark Contrast, which I believe is patent pending) with what has been retconned, which is what you're now switching to.

And with that, I guess there's nothing left to discuss. Now you're altering both what I said and what you said.
 

Something Amyss

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NeutralDrow said:
I haven't been paying attention past the first thread page, but...if you're saying stuff like the bolded part, maybe that's where you're getting accusations of cherry-picking? It feels pretty arbitrary and presumptuous.
Other way around. He dishonestly accused me of cherry picking his words. The only thing I said was that when he put words in my mouth and went after me for them, he was knocking down a straw man. Or Straw Amaranth, as I put it, but still.
 

Jacked Assassin

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I feel cooled off after that double post. So I'm going to try to clarify myself the best that I can.

Yes I'm annoyed by Steve Rogers being depowered again. I know that Marvel retconned timeline into "Marvel Now". And I'm kind of annoyed they're repeating past history that was retconned out. I don't know where this idea of "My Personal Retcons" comes from as that would have to do more with my personal fan fiction. Or somehow me having an actual say about what goes on at Marvel. At best I've stated my personal preferences. I even posted "might as well" when referring to retcons instead of "ought to be". And even then I'd be having that discussion with Marvel; not The Escapist.

And maybe "Cherry Picked" sounds bad but I doubt my now referring to it as "Quote Mined" is going to make much of a difference. Then again I used the word "imply" as in this is what I think this sentence implies. Not some weird I already knew what the poster was thinking & took it out of context anyway.

But at post 16 I was interested in having a discussion with Mike Hoffman just to point out that not everyone who likes Steve Roger's as Captain America is somehow racist. If I said anything else to might offend Mike Hoffman beyond that I might be sorry.

At post 34 I was quote mined in a way that made me sound kind of racist. At post 64 I tried to clarify my views to post 34 despite the fact I knew I was being quote mined & even brought up retcons. Post 83 quote mined my part about retcons & made it sound like it was about a white man power fantasy.

So far the only time I wasn't quote mined was at post 86 where I pointed out a particular retcon. But that is where at post 91 it was then declared I was only interested in fighting a straw man version of that poster. Despite the fact that from what I could tell poster wanted to fight a racist version of myself who doesn't exist.

I stated implied in post 93 & even pointed out that he was "cherry picking" though once again maybe I should've said quote mine. Though I doubt that would've made much difference at post 98 I was once again quote mined. Then finally post 99 denies any of this happening despite the history being right there.