Call of Duty: Black Ops Censored in Germany

[geierkreisen]

As far as not trusting Germany goes, that's not "drool", that's just honesty. Two world wars, and an active engagement in censorship not long after we allow it to re-unify. While plenty of reasons not to trust the US, and other countries exist (and can be fired back), the bottom like here is that I don't think I'm being paticularly unreasonable. As far as I'm concerned Germany is in a position where it has to earn trust, as opposed to being trusted as a default position. The very fact that Germany censors anything is a cause for concern, especially when they are using a dual standard.

What is your direct personal experience with anything or anyone German? You condemn a whole people on which grounds? You ALLOWED us to re-unify?! What the hell?! You sir have overstepped any and all kinds of bounds of civility and politeness. This is not mere trolling, this is utter BS. Come to Germany when you've learned some decency, I'll even let you crash on my couch.

 

[Therumancer]

As far as not trusting Germany goes, that's not "drool", that's just honesty. Two world wars, and an active engagement in censorship not long after we allow it to re-unify.

Go fuck yourself, republican. You "allow" other countries to choose their own destinies, now?

Yes.

After World War II to prevent Germany from rising as a power again due to it's policies and behavior this thing called "The Berlin Wall" was assembled to split the country in half and prevent it from ever acheiving power again. I personally think this was a good idea, and taking that wall down was one of the few things I think Ronald Reagan did that was wrong.

Germany has only returned to power because we made that desician. They exist in their current form because we allowed it. Like it or not, it's true.

As far as I'm concerned I think two World Wars was enough, and I do find it greatly distressing to see a country that has been responsible for that to have recovered so quickly into a world power again (even if not a super power), become insturmental in helping to form something like the EU, and also to be engaging in any kind of internal censorship no matter what the justification.

I do not forgive or forget that easily, and World War II wasn't that long ago. Heck, there were still people alive who fought in that war on both sides when we took down the wall, the generation that was responsible wasn't even gone. A few generations later I might have seen the point, and considered it harsh, but not now.

Like I say to a lot of people, watch your tongue. As I know I represent a tiny minority opinion on these forums (being right wing, pro-American, and militant) so I am very tolerant. However I am polite with everyone, and don't engage in personal attacks. To date I have never reported anyone, and as I tell others, don't make yourself the first. I don't want to see anyone get banned because of a disagreement (we could wind up being best buddies on a non-political thread about video games), but at the same time I don't want to have people insulting and swearing at me because (gasp) we disagree.

On top of that, what do you expect me to do? Pretend that the Berlin wall never existed? Claim we didn't build it for a reason? Act like it wasn't our desician to take it down? Oh sure it might be unpopular on these forums to say that I think we never should have done so, especially so shortly after it was erected, but I am certainly not alone in that opinion.

Lots of people distrust the US, and are vocal about it, so why do I deserve being sworn at with the "F word" because I say I don't trust Germany? Oh wait, I guess it's because it's only proper to say unmitigated bad things about the US (and maybe Isreal).....

 

[Staskala]

Yes.

After World War II to prevent Germany from rising as a power again due to it's policies and behavior this thing called "The Berlin Wall" was assembled to split the country in half and prevent it from ever acheiving power again. I personally think this was a good idea, and taking that wall down was one of the few things I think Ronald Reagan did that was wrong.

Germany has only returned to power because we made that desician. They exist in their current form because we allowed it. Like it or not, it's true.

As far as I'm concerned I think two World Wars was enough, and I do find it greatly distressing to see a country that has been responsible for that to have recovered so quickly into a world power again (even if not a super power), become insturmental in helping to form something like the EU, and also to be engaging in any kind of internal censorship no matter what the justification.

I do not forgive or forget that easily, and World War II wasn't that long ago. Heck, there were still people alive who fought in that war on both sides when we took down the wall, the generation that was responsible wasn't even gone. A few generations later I might have seen the point, and considered it harsh, but not now.

Like I say to a lot of people, watch your tongue. As I know I represent a tiny minority opinion on these forums (being right wing, pro-American, and militant) so I am very tolerant. However I am polite with everyone, and don't engage in personal attacks. To date I have never reported anyone, and as I tell others, don't make yourself the first. I don't want to see anyone get banned because of a disagreement (we could wind up being best buddies on a non-political thread about video games), but at the same time I don't want to have people insulting and swearing at me because (gasp) we disagree.

On top of that, what do you expect me to do? Pretend that the Berlin wall never existed? Claim we didn't build it for a reason? Act like it wasn't our desician to take it down? Oh sure it might be unpopular on these forums to say that I think we never should have done so, especially so shortly after it was erected, but I am certainly not alone in that opinion.

Lots of people distrust the US, and are vocal about it, so why do I deserve being sworn at with the "F word" because I say I don't trust Germany? Oh wait, I guess it's because it's only proper to say unmitigated bad things about the US (and maybe Isreal).....

Ok, this now completely ridiculous, do you know any history at all?
Amercia building the Berlin wall?
You've got to be shitting me.

 

[Therumancer]

Doesn't matter if it soundes like "biased drool" or not. Heck, unlike most people I'm honest when I'm biased, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong to be.

See, the thing here is that you seem not to care about what was censored from the game. That right there is a problem. While I don't expect the German citizens to be screaming "give us our blood back" I find it disturbing when nobody bothers to say anything about censorship and a govement engaging in it for "non constitutional symbols" no matter what was there. The fact that people seem to actively be defending Germany in this makes thing even worse.

Also while you do at least try and mention some of the points with "Gothic", I notice you don't bother to even touch the issue of the production of Heavy Metal in general. Is that, or is it not a dual standard? It certainly seems like one to me.

As far as not trusting Germany goes, that's not "drool", that's just honesty. Two world wars, and an active engagement in censorship not long after we allow it to re-unify. While plenty of reasons not to trust the US, and other countries exist (and can be fired back), the bottom like here is that I don't think I'm being paticularly unreasonable. As far as I'm concerned Germany is in a position where it has to earn trust, as opposed to being trusted as a default position. The very fact that Germany censors anything is a cause for concern, especially when they are using a dual standard.

I indeed don't care about German censorship because I never buy anything here. Thus none of the games I own are censored. The "resistance" is simply making uncensor patches and that's usually enough. There are a few petitions and stuff going on, but without higher support that's not going anywhere.
I don't touch Heavy Metal because this is the first instance of anything being cut in that direction.
You see, it never happened before. Like I said, you can buy the song just fine here, so I don't know why it was cut.

You know who demanded censorship after WWII? No other country than the USA. For good reasons, I might add. And the "earning trust" argument is a bit outdated, like 50 years or so.
At least earning the trust of relevant people.

I'm going to ignore the insult towards the end there for the sake of keeping the peace.

I do have to ask though which song it was, since I haven't been able to find referances to it, and I just spent a little while searching it. I'm also interested in seeing any source about it being censored, because to be honest it seems like someone was so draconian about wiping it out that you can't even find evidence that it exists easily. This is a request aside from the arguement simply because I was looking.

Other than that, I do not consider 50 years to be too little time after two world wars. In my mind Germany should have been kept out of commission via The Berlin wall for several human generations. Basically until not only the Nazis were dead, but anyone who would have had first hand knowlege of knowing a Nazi. Right now you have a few old geezers who were around during the war, and plenty of kids who directly knew those geezers.

That might sound excessive to you, and I do understand your point of view, but really I consider the wars to be that big a deal. I think people are way too short sighted, and way too forgiving nowadays. Even if it's pretty much economic, I have difficulty with Germany wielding ANY kind of power today.

... and hey, people have anti-US opinions, you just called us irrelevent. Lots of people don't like the US. That's what opinions are all about. Just try and keep them relevent, devoid of personal attacks, and be able to justify them even if your not exactly going to convince the other side.

 

[Tiamat666]

To be honest with you I find Germany disturbing.

On one hand they go through great lengths to try and convince you they are ashamed of the whole Nazi thing. On the other hand the method they choose to demonstrate this point with is the censorship of foreign products, including things that they somehow feel are "anti-constitutional symbols" which smacks of the kind of hyper-patriotism they claim to be over...

The thing is, that Nazi symbols, such as the swastika, are forbidden so that far-right neonazi groups may not use them. For many people in Germany, seeing a swastika flag would be intolerable for obvious reasons. And if you want to forbid certain groups from using such symbols, you have to forbid it outright so that there are no double standards.

However what I don't understand is why Nazi symbology is censored in games but not in movies. You can see Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, for example, and all the swastikas are right there. That doesn't make sense to me, as both are entertainment products.

 

[_tinned_magpie_]

Wonderful, I'm moving to Germany in two years time. Looks like I'll be doing a lot of importing if they keep this up. The world seriously needs to stop panicking about the effects of video game content on their children.

snip

Wow, my Bullshit-O-Meter's going off the scale here! I should have known that with a thread about Germany, there would come a woefully misinformed idiot with a post filled with conspiracy theories.

I keep things polite, and respect the same in return.

Now, excepting the bit about the screaming concentration camp victims in music, which is difficult for me to prove even though I've heard it personally (as opposed to someone who is acting purely out of speculation), what is a conspiricy theory. That germany is engaging in censorship? Nope, we see that happening here which is what this entire discussion is about. That Germany seems to be censoring foreign products for content far more vigorously than their own?

Pretty much for your response to mean anything, your basically trying to claim that Germany has never produced any kind of heavy metal, death metal, etc... or other products which involve violent content and let them slide. Now granted, finding the bit about the concentration camp victims is difficult (I tried and couldn't just now) however you'll find tons of stuff on German Heavy Metal.

The bottom line is that while I understand there is an instinctive reaction to want to attack anything you don't like hearing, that doesn't mean that it's incorrect. If your not going to bother to engage in serious discussion, why bother posting at all other than to try and start a flame war? Especially when you insult people.

I apologise. Reading that back, it is quite insulting. The German people and it's culture are pretty much my livelihood, and I tend to get quite aerated when people start ranting on about Germany and it's Nazi past. Call it a knee-jerk reaction for a country I'm very fond of.

Granted, I still disagree with the original points you made, but I'll address them properly so as not to seem like I'm just pointing and yelling (which I initially was. Again, sorry.) I'm not denying that they've done terrible things in the past, but I see nothing hypocritical in their censorship of games.

On the subject of the Heavy Metal thing, I think the musicians behave the same mentality no matter what country you're in. Even if including screams of the victims is true (and believe me, I'm taking it with an enormous pinch of salt there), Death Metal exists to shock, and it really shouldn't be taken seriously. Especially in terms of their Government or the rest of the country. The general consensus is that German Death metal is far more popular in other countries than it is in its own.

In terms of 'hyper-patriotism' mentioned in your original post, I find that quite biased. What you accused them of (in referral to their 'anti-constitutional' quote) can be found in many countries, particularly America. No offence meant to any Americans reading, but the country is very patriotic from an outsiders view, and the constitution is referred to frequently.

What I think the problem is, in terms of this censorship, is fear. Much like Australia, America and the UK, Germany fears the game industry and the effects it may be having on their children. Personally, I think the idea is ridiculous, but it's a new media that they don't know what to make of. Therefore, their first instinct is to censor anything particularly gory or controversial.

As for the censorship of Nazism in the game - can we truly blame them for being touchy? Yes, removing the Rolling Stones song was overkill, but this is a nation that's really torn. From my studies, many want to forget and move on, but feel terrible for wanting to do so with their ancestors misdeeds still in the mind. It's guilt by association: a vicious cycle and quite uncomfortable for them. The media turning to the Nazi's again and again for a ready-made villain doesn't help. Having your country continually referred to by mistakes made decades ago can really make you squirm, especially when a huge majority of the citizens around today weren't even alive then. It could be said that by censoring, they're putting their heads in the sand, but there it is.

So there's my opinions on the subject. That said, I think I'll stay out of this from now on. As I proved earlier, it's far too easy to dive face-first into a flame war.

 

[geierkreisen]

erased

 

[geierkreisen]

erased

 

[Therumancer]

As far as not trusting Germany goes, that's not "drool", that's just honesty. Two world wars, and an active engagement in censorship not long after we allow it to re-unify. While plenty of reasons not to trust the US, and other countries exist (and can be fired back), the bottom like here is that I don't think I'm being paticularly unreasonable. As far as I'm concerned Germany is in a position where it has to earn trust, as opposed to being trusted as a default position. The very fact that Germany censors anything is a cause for concern, especially when they are using a dual standard.

What is your direct personal experience with anything or anyone German? You condemn a whole people on which grounds? You ALLOWED us to re-unify?! What the hell?! You sir have overstepped any and all kinds of bounds of civility and politeness. This is not mere trolling, this is utter BS. Come to Germany when you've learned some decency, I'll even let you crash on my couch.

Since I'm talking about politics and history, I don't think any direct experience with German citizens is an issue. I'm talking about two world wars here, which I actually feel were kind of a big deal you know....

As far as allowing you to re-unify, yeah... we did. Taking down The Berlin Wall came down to US President Ronald Reagan. I disagree with that desician because of those wars, but he still did it. Like it or not, Germany is in the position it is now because we allowed it, we took down the wall.

Also incidently if it seems like I'm unusually critical, I also feel that it makes you our responsibility. Any country that goes from utter defeat and division to the level of power Germany is wielding right now makes me nervous, especially after two attempts to take over the world. Maybe Germany isn't a military threat at the moment, but it represent an economic one (potentially) and has a lot of power that way, and there are ways to take over the world and do damage which have nothing to do with military force.

You might not like hearing this, but that's my opinion, and yeah... your where you are now because we decided to let it happen.

 

[Wintermoot]

crap! that,s just a few miles away!

 

[Therumancer]

Yes.

After World War II to prevent Germany from rising as a power again due to it's policies and behavior this thing called "The Berlin Wall" was assembled to split the country in half and prevent it from ever acheiving power again. I personally think this was a good idea, and taking that wall down was one of the few things I think Ronald Reagan did that was wrong.

Germany has only returned to power because we made that desician. They exist in their current form because we allowed it. Like it or not, it's true.

As far as I'm concerned I think two World Wars was enough, and I do find it greatly distressing to see a country that has been responsible for that to have recovered so quickly into a world power again (even if not a super power), become insturmental in helping to form something like the EU, and also to be engaging in any kind of internal censorship no matter what the justification.

I do not forgive or forget that easily, and World War II wasn't that long ago. Heck, there were still people alive who fought in that war on both sides when we took down the wall, the generation that was responsible wasn't even gone. A few generations later I might have seen the point, and considered it harsh, but not now.

Like I say to a lot of people, watch your tongue. As I know I represent a tiny minority opinion on these forums (being right wing, pro-American, and militant) so I am very tolerant. However I am polite with everyone, and don't engage in personal attacks. To date I have never reported anyone, and as I tell others, don't make yourself the first. I don't want to see anyone get banned because of a disagreement (we could wind up being best buddies on a non-political thread about video games), but at the same time I don't want to have people insulting and swearing at me because (gasp) we disagree.

On top of that, what do you expect me to do? Pretend that the Berlin wall never existed? Claim we didn't build it for a reason? Act like it wasn't our desician to take it down? Oh sure it might be unpopular on these forums to say that I think we never should have done so, especially so shortly after it was erected, but I am certainly not alone in that opinion.

Lots of people distrust the US, and are vocal about it, so why do I deserve being sworn at with the "F word" because I say I don't trust Germany? Oh wait, I guess it's because it's only proper to say unmitigated bad things about the US (and maybe Isreal).....

Ok, this now completely ridiculous, do you know any history at all?
Amercia building the Berlin wall?
You've got to be shitting me.

I think you need to do some history reading yourself. Though I admit the writing wasn't the best. It wasn't America single handedly, but it was it and the allies who were responsible for the wall being put up, and in the final equasion it was the US that wound up having the final say on taking it down. If Reagan hadn't supported it, it would still be there.

That might not make some people happy, but that's the way it is.

 

[Slangeveld]

...Why is it the EU countries shrunk at the sight of a FPS...tis a real shame

Yo, "Germany" not "Europe".

I Hope....

But jee, I hope that this overly sensitive attitude isn't contagious. I live rather close to Germany.

 

[Therumancer]

To be honest with you I find Germany disturbing.

On one hand they go through great lengths to try and convince you they are ashamed of the whole Nazi thing. On the other hand the method they choose to demonstrate this point with is the censorship of foreign products, including things that they somehow feel are "anti-constitutional symbols" which smacks of the kind of hyper-patriotism they claim to be over...

The thing is, that Nazi symbols, such as the swastika, are forbidden so that far-right neonazi groups may not use them. For many people in Germany, seeing a swastika flag would be intolerable for obvious reasons. And if you want to forbid certain groups from using such symbols, you have to forbid it outright so that there are no double standards.

However what I don't understand is why Nazi symbology is censored in games but not in movies. You can see Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, for example, and all the swastikas are right there. That doesn't make sense to me, as both are entertainment products.

But, in most cases Germany is quite frank when they censor Nazi symbols. In this case that isn't what they said, the reason is "anti-constitutional". What's more unlike Indiana Jones, or other products, this is a game where the premise doesn't really involve the Nazis. It's about The Cold War, after the fall of Nazi Germany. The big players are apparently supposed to be the US and USSR.

What is being censored here.

See, that is one of the big reasons I'm being forceful about this. It seems to me that people are operating under a specific assumption, but one that doesn't make sense given the product.

From the way it looks to me the lack of questioning is the most disturbing element. It's also why allowing censorship at all (no matter the reason, like letting extremists using symbols) leads to a snowball effect. You've gotten so used to it, that the goverment isn't even bothering to justify their information control.

Besides, to me banning Nazi symbolism is like the US banning the Confederate Flag in general (we do have laws about flying it in place or alongside an American flag, but none banning it in general).

 

[Brotherofwill]

To be honest, I said the stuff about not wanting to keep debating with you because I think it won't do any good, so I won't indulge in it. The kind of opinions you have aren't really in the realm of casual debate so I don't see the point in going on. I don't mean this as an insult and I respect your freedom to voice your concerns about censorship.

Actualy it's not the first concrete example I've given.

I think we have a different idea of 'concrete'. Merely dropping a name or two isn't really a concrete example.

A concrete, debatable example that might make me think or get heavily involved here would be:
You naming a german produced game that was applicable to the usual german censorship that didn't get it (and German games that qualify for censorship are like...2 handfulls maybe?). You then naming a foreign product with very similar themes, gameplay, depiction of violence that gets censored around the same time of the release. Finally you naming a proposed reason as to why it happened. You can't just say "Gothic didn't get censored" (more on censorship guidelines later).

I didn't say anything about Heavy Metal bands because you didn't make a very good case for it (as in no specific names, no specific foreign bands as a comparison and no stats, facts or anything whatsoever) and even if you had: I don't know jack shit about Heavy Metal, Heavy Metal bands in Germany or anything regarding a possible censorship bias between foreign HM or German HM and I think neither do you.

It's not really a defendable point.

It is defendable once you know what they censor for. I've seen hundreds of games here get censored and I tend to know the guidelines. They go for some pretty regulated stuff. Fantasy violence isn't very often censored here (expect if it has hyper violence or dismemberment which Gothic doesn't.) Videogames that have you shooting humans are something completely different to the censorship guys. Take my word on it.

As far as trusting Germany goes, I hate to break it to you, but Germany is in a position where it has to earn trust. I do not think it's a country with a history that warrents giving it the benefit of the doubt. Oh sure, plenty of bad things can be said about other countries, including my own, but as far as I'm concerned Germany occupies a rather unique position due to it's history.

I hate to break it to you, but that's the most ignorant thing I've read in a long time. It makes me feel like you have no idea about any type of Western European history within the last 70 years. It also makes me quite sad that there are still educated people out there that think like that. If I didn't know any better (and hadn't read this thread) I'd say you're trolling because in my view your claim really is that far fetched. I hope that one day you might change your views. May god have mercy on your soul (how about that for an obscure reference, he?).

Anyway as for the censorship in CoD:

Meanwhile, explosions will no longer cause limb loss on the part of characters.

 

[Socken]

To be honest with you I find Germany disturbing.

On one hand they go through great lengths to try and convince you they are ashamed of the whole Nazi thing. On the other hand the method they choose to demonstrate this point with is the censorship of foreign products, including things that they somehow feel are "anti-constitutional symbols" which smacks of the kind of hyper-patriotism they claim to be over...

I'll also go so far as to point out that a lot of this seems to be grand standing for the rest of the world, because despite the job done on wiping out the Nazi idealogy, I have in the past hung out with a number of people into music generes like "Death Metal" who would swear up and down about how the Germans are so much better at it than everyone else, while demonstrating how they spliced the screams of Nazi concentration camp victims into the music, or added them in subliminally. I've remained intentionally ignorant of the specific bands that were doing this kind of thing, but the bottom line is that it make quite an impression on me at the time. If you have Germany producing this kind of thing domestically, not to mention garden variety heavy metal which can get far worse than "The Rolling Stones" has ever been, I can't take their censorship of foreign products on these grounds as anything but a political publicity stunt, or more disturbingly attempts to filter outside ideas justified by only the thinnest veneer of logic

Censorship is a bad thig in general, and if there is any country I have problems with exercising any kind of information control at all it's Germany. My referances are pretty vague (and I admit that) but I'm pretty sure if someone really wanted to examine this kind of thing under a microscope, and compared domestically generated products compared to their censorship of ones coming in from outside, they would be revealed as hypocrits of the worst kind.

It doesn't have anything to do with where the product comes from. It's just that apparently everything goes on TV here (we get tits and swearing en masse in afternoon talk shows regularly), but nowhere else.
Music and video games especially are subject to ridiculous censorship no matter where they're from, and while I don't know of any German games that have been censored here (there really aren't that many German games to begin with), bands like Die Ärzte or Rammstein have had numerous albums banned. And that's just the two I can think of off the top of my head, I can assure you there's plenty of other examples.

I think you're reading a little too much into this, especially since you obviously have no idea about the censorship of domestic products over here.

 

[The Imp]

I think people are way too short sighted, and way too forgiving nowadays.

Oh you don't really want to go down the guilt/forgiveness-road, do you?

Just in case:

White man came across the sea
Brought us pain and misery
Killed our tribes killed our creed
Took our game for his own need

We fought him hard we fought him well
Out on the plains we gave him hell
But many came to much for Cree
Oh will we ever be set free?

Riding through dustclouds and barren wastes
Galloping hard on the plains
Chasing the redskins back to their holes
Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack

Soldier blue in barren wastes
Hunting and killing their game
Raping the women and wasting the men
The only good Indians are tame
Selling them whiskey and taking their gold
Enslaving the young and destroying the old

 

[Socken]

Nevermind.

 

[Staskala]

I think you need to do some history reading yourself. Though I admit the writing wasn't the best. It wasn't America single handedly, but it was it and the allies who were responsible for the wall being put up, and in the final equasion it was the US that wound up having the final say on taking it down. If Reagan hadn't supported it, it would still be there.

That might not make some people happy, but that's the way it is.

No, just no.
Seriously, no.
The Berlin Wall was in no way buildt by the allies, what are you talking about.
I don't even... No.

You're trolling, right?
People like you really lower my esteem of the American population.

Seriously, why would an American even claim that they buildt the wall?
I don't get it.

 

[Nevyrmoore]

If Reagan hadn't supported it, it would still be there.

I didn't read the whole thing so disregard this if I missed anything, but Bush was president of the US when the wall came down.

But Reagan still supported it.

 

[AbsoluteVirtue18]

First Medal of Honor, now this. Brace yourselves people for playing Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood where the assassinations have all been replace with big friendly hugs.

That's what you do already.

[sub]You just stab them while you're doing it.[/sub]