Can someone explain the appeal of Rogue-likes/lites to me?

[ninja666]

With the boom of indie games in the last 8-9 years, the Roguelike (along with its slightly less punishing alternative, Roguelite) genre has been growing stronger and stronger, with more and more games coming out. I've tried a couple out over the years and I only kept scratching my head in bewilderment more and more as to why people find those games fun.

It's a game genre where everything is randomized - the level layout, the enemy placement, the loot... You basically can't get better at the game by learning it due to all of those constantly changing, and yet the game has the audacity to punish you by making you lose all of your progress when you don't learn from your mistakes. I'm sorry, what mistakes? The mistake of not predicting there was going to be three enemies, that weren't there before, standing behind the corner that wasn't there before?

Seriously, what's the appeal? Because to me, this genre sounds like the counter-definition of a fun game.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I don't get it either. It truly is the opposite of everything I expect from a video game. It's a genre that revolves around terrible game design that other games would be called out for. But rogue-likes get away with bad game design because it's literally their core feature.

 

[Saelune]

Ever play almost any arcade game ever? Now apply that to an RPG.

Though I prefer ones with some sort of unlockables, new characters/classes/options/items whatever.

Plus there is the potential of endless play. I love Dark Souls, but after 100% both 1 and 2, I feel little need to replay them...except when they re-release it >.> (Cause now I can get all the achievements again...)

But I would be down for a Dark Souls Rogue-like. (Seriously that would be awesome)


I personally also like the feeling of discovery, to see what new version of the layout or whatever I get next.

 

[ninja666]

Ever play almost any arcade game ever? Now apply that to an RPG.

Not really a good analogy. Arcade games also are ridiculously punishing, true, but they have preset level layouts and enemy placements, meaning you can master game by memorization and putting it into practice. You can't do that with a Roguelike.

Plus there is the potential of endless play. I love Dark Souls, but after 100% both 1 and 2, I feel little need to replay them

Okay, I can see the appeal in that. However, this doesn't really explain why people would be willing to play a game where you lose all of your progress when you screw up, instead of just playing a normal game, with procedurally generated levels, that you can save your progress in.

I personally also like the feeling of discovery, to see what new version of the layout or whatever I get next.

Again, that could easily be applied to the type of game I mentioned above. You still get randomized levels, but you don't get sent back to the absolute beginning when you die.

 

[Saelune]

Ever play almost any arcade game ever? Now apply that to an RPG.

Not really a good analogy. Arcade games also are ridiculously punishing, true, but they have preset level layouts and enemy placements, meaning you can master game by memorization and putting it into practice. You can't do that with a Roguelike.

Plus there is the potential of endless play. I love Dark Souls, but after 100% both 1 and 2, I feel little need to replay them

Okay, I can see the appeal in that. However, this doesn't really explain why people would be willing to play a game where you lose all of your progress when you screw up, instead of just playing a normal game, with procedurally generated levels, that you can save your progress in.

I personally also like the feeling of discovery, to see what new version of the layout or whatever I get next.

Again, that could easily be applied to the type of game I mentioned above. You still get randomized levels, but you don't get sent back to the absolute beginning when you die.

I could just as easily point out that makes it tedious and predictable. Rogue-likes add variety.


The joy of starting fresh is real, I know I have it. There is something about a fresh new playthrough that is pretty great! Many games where I can keep my progress I still find myself starting over anyways cause I enjoy that level 1 feeling.

 

[ninja666]

The joy of starting fresh is real, I know I have it. There is something about a fresh new playthrough that is pretty great! Many games where I can keep my progress I still find myself starting over anyways cause I enjoy that level 1 feeling.

I'm guilty of that as well, but that still doesn't explain why people would prefer roguelikes over the type of game I described, a game that has all the positive aspects of a roguelike, without any of the downsides. Hell, it even gives you the ability to do exactly what you describe - you just hit "new game", get a fresh start you want, with entirely new, randomly generated levels, but you don't get punished and forced back to square one for fucking up one level, or a boss, or anything, really.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

The random elements in Rogue-like & lites is the main draw, because it favors re-play, exploration/discovery and emergent gameplay properties.

 

[ninja666]

The random elements in Rogue-like & lites is the main draw, because it favors re-play, exploration/discovery and emergent gameplay properties.

I get it. But what's the appeal behind the overly punishing nature of the genre? Because that's why I'm trying to find out the most.

 

[Saelune]

The joy of starting fresh is real, I know I have it. There is something about a fresh new playthrough that is pretty great! Many games where I can keep my progress I still find myself starting over anyways cause I enjoy that level 1 feeling.

I'm guilty of that as well, but that still doesn't explain why people would prefer roguelikes over the type of game I described, a game that has all the positive aspects of a roguelike, without any of the downsides. Hell, it even gives you the ability to do exactly what you describe - you just hit "new game", get a fresh start you want, with entirely new, randomly generated levels, but you don't get punished and forced back to square one for fucking up one level, or a boss, or anything, really.

The challenge is fun. Succeeding when there is that risk makes it fun for some people. Why do people do Nuzlocke challenges in pokemon? Cause that risk adds to the challenge which adds to the reward of success. The same reason people play games on higher difficulty even though easy mode is available too.

 

[ninja666]

The challenge is fun. Succeeding when there is that risk makes it fun for some people. Why do people do Nuzlocke challenges in pokemon? Cause that risk adds to the challenge which adds to the reward of success. The same reason people play games on higher difficulty even though easy mode is available too.

Is there a more elaborate answer to that, than "just because some people prefer it that way"? Because that kind of answer doesn't really provide me with any worthwhile info. Sure, preferences play a big part in it, but behind every preference there's often a complex reason for it, and that reason is what I'm trying to find out.

 

[Saelune]

The challenge is fun. Succeeding when there is that risk makes it fun for some people. Why do people do Nuzlocke challenges in pokemon? Cause that risk adds to the challenge which adds to the reward of success. The same reason people play games on higher difficulty even though easy mode is available too.

Is there a more elaborate answer to that, than "just because some people prefer it that way"? Because that kind of answer doesn't really provide me with any worthwhile info. Sure, preferences play a big part in it, but behind every preference there's often a complex reason for it, and that reason is what I'm trying to find out.

I don't really see why it needs to be more complex than people enjoy a challenge? The randomness and variety, the challenge, the discovery and exploration, together that can be alot of fun.

 

[ninja666]

I don't really see why it needs to be more complex than people enjoy a challenge? The randomness and variety, the challenge, the discovery and exploration, together that can be alot of fun.

Because I'm baffled as to why people enjoy such an unreasonably unfair challenge, that's more luck than skill-based, and pretty much borderline impossible to complete, over a fair and well-thought-out one.

 

[Saelune]

I don't really see why it needs to be more complex than people enjoy a challenge? The randomness and variety, the challenge, the discovery and exploration, together that can be alot of fun.

Because I'm baffled as to why people enjoy such an unreasonably unfair challenge, that's more luck than skill-based, and pretty much borderline impossible to complete, over a fair and well-thought-out one.

Maybe you just played a really shitty one? Not all Rogue-Likes are created equal, games can just be a bad version of whatever genre it is going for.


You can be good at them. Like Binding of Isaac, you can be good at it, but you can also get lucky and get stuff that makes it easier, but if you're good at avoiding the bullet-hell like projectiles, you can succeed on a 'bad' run.


Plus many rogue-likes are meant to be not super long, so you get a bad run, whatever, you die and try again. Binding if Isaac isnt a long game.

 

[ninja666]

Maybe you just played a really shitty one? Not all Rogue-Likes are created equal, games can just be a bad version of whatever genre it is going for.

I played Nuclear Throne, Enter the Gungeon, and Dungeons of Dredmor. Those are supposed to the the top of the line ones, right? My experience with all of them was pretty similar - I could see the appeal of randomly generated levels, but couldn't understand why the game pretty much resets itself every time I die, taking all of my stuff away and dumping me on a completely different-looking level, instead of letting me master the one it generated for me five minutes ago, with the playstyle it decided to give me.

 

[Saelune]

Maybe you just played a really shitty one? Not all Rogue-Likes are created equal, games can just be a bad version of whatever genre it is going for.

I played Nuclear Throne, Enter the Gungeon, and Dungeons of Dredmor. Those are supposed to the the top of the line ones, right? My experience with all of them was pretty similar - I could see the appeal of randomly generated levels, but couldn't understand why the game pretty much resets itself every time I die, taking all of my stuff away and dumping me on a completely different-looking level, instead of letting me master the one it generated for me five minutes ago.

I haven't actually played any of those.


I really think it is just not for you maybe? If the loss of progress ruins your fun, you don't have to play them.

 

[ninja666]

I really think it is just not for you maybe? If the loss of progress ruins your fun, you don't have to play them.

I already know they're not for me and I'm not going to touch them with a ten foot pole. What I was trying to achieve with this thread was understanding what other people see in this genre. So far, I didn't get any definite answer other than "because that's what they prefer", so that remains to be seen.

 

[Saelune]

I really think it is just not for you maybe? If the loss of progress ruins your fun, you don't have to play them.

I already know they're not for me and I'm not going to touch them with a ten foot pole. What I was trying to achieve with this thread was understanding what other people see in this genre. So far, I didn't get any definite answer other than "because that's what they prefer", so that remains to be seen.

I think I did give a definite answer, you just did not like them.

The challenge is fun. Succeeding when there is that risk makes it fun for some people. Why do people do Nuzlocke challenges in pokemon? Cause that risk adds to the challenge which adds to the reward of success. The same reason people play games on higher difficulty even though easy mode is available too.

Is there a more elaborate answer to that, than "just because some people prefer it that way"? Because that kind of answer doesn't really provide me with any worthwhile info. Sure, preferences play a big part in it, but behind every preference there's often a complex reason for it, and that reason is what I'm trying to find out.

I don't really see why it needs to be more complex than people enjoy a challenge? The randomness and variety, the challenge, the discovery and exploration, together that can be alot of fun.

 

[ninja666]

I think I did give a definite answer, you just did not like them.

I didn't like it because it wasn't informative at all. Sure, they like the challenge, but why exactly that type of challenge, when there are lots and lots of better designed games, that are still challenging, while not being unnecessarily punishing? That you didn't explain and it pretty much just boiled down to "because they prefer it that way".

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

The one that I hate the most is Sunless Sea, because every death resets all your progress. The map changes, enemies shuffle around, and mission quests change places. So your hundredth run is just as successful as your first, meaning not. And I don't get the appeal. You literally never make any progress.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

The random elements in Rogue-like & lites is the main draw, because it favors re-play, exploration/discovery and emergent gameplay properties.

Well, every game has exploration and discovery, and replayability is such an overrated value. There are so many games out there, way more than anyone could play in a lifetime. Why should I care if I can't replay a game?

Randomization in a game indicates laziness and a lack of creativity.