Can we stop with the "Batman is more relatable than Superman" thing?

happyninja42

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JimB said:
Happyninja42 said:
But while we might disagree on what is considered murder, he destroyed the only source of genetic material that could have repopulated the Kryptonian race. That's genocide in my book.
I disagree on the grounds that mature male and female Kryptonians still exist in close physical proximity to one another, and their genitals presumably still work, given that Kal-El was born, though who the fuck knows if that last part is true, given how convoluted the backstory of Kryptonian boot-knocking apparently is.
What boink capable Kryptonians exist in the Nolan-verse aside from Kal-El at this point? And besides, a handful of breeding pairs isn't enough to populate a species. For all effective purposes, the Kryptonians as a full species, are dead, and it's because he killed them.


JimB said:
Happyninja42 said:
As to where he got that ship, I dunno. He did a space trip throughout tons of locations after getting out of the Phantom Zone, maybe he found it on one of those outposts.
Yeah, maybe. I just can't specifically remember Zod ever mentioning how he got the fucking thing, and I hate that I can't answer this question. Google has spoiled me.
Heh, that fact didn't bother me much, compared to the other bits that got on my nerves with that movie. Good luck finding your answer!
 

Fappy

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Therumancer said:
Fappy said:
Batman and Superman are equally unrelatable characters. In fact, most of the more established super heroes are. I remember reading an interesting interview Alan Moore did awhile back where he basically explained that most Batman stories are worthless outside their entertainment value (and perhaps some philosophy depending on the book). He's basically a god trapped in a man's body who can overcome any physical or mental limits the plot demands. As fun as his stories can be, he's an incredibly dull character on his own.
This coming from the guy who created "Tom Strong" where that's pretty much the entire schtick.

Alan Moore is great, don't get me wrong, and I don't doubt he said that, but he's produced his fair share of brain candy over the years despite his award winning stuff.
Well, I never said Alan Moore was consistent.

...

Or sane, for that matter XD
 

Cicada 5

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Zeconte said:
Samtemdo8 said:
And I feel like people keeps forgetting that Superman the Animated Series and Justice League Animated Series Exists as if Batman was the only viable animated series worth watching.

And why can't we get into the other characters? Who cares if they are not "human" so long as their adventures are interesting.

And even then to say the likes of Wonder Woman, Green Lantern (be it Hal Jorden and John Stewert) The Flash, etc. They have plenty of Humanity.

Green Lanter is nothing without his Ring. His Ring is essentially a weapon without it he is unarmed.
Again, it's not that I forget that those existed, they just came years too late for me. Batman the Animated Series came out in 1992, same with X-Men, Spiderman came out 1994, by 1996, I was in high school and never cared to watch the WB channel, so I never even saw the cartoon. So, my experience with Superman and many other DC characters besides Batman was the Super Friends, and holy fuck was that terribad. I mean, from what little I saw, Justice League was probably fairly decent for people who enjoy DC, I just can't get into it. I mean, I don't even like Batman all that much, but he's at least interesting enough to watch and has some pretty great villains. Gotham has so far been an excellent series, as were the Tim Burton movies and The Dark Knight. No one else in the DC universe really has anything that made me interested in them as a character.

Superman is just all around meh, the only villain I know of his is Lex Luthor, who's meh, and I still for the life of me do not know why he is so obsessed with business ventures that Superman is sure to put a stop to. I mean, for all his money and intelligence, he couldn't figure out a way to just go about making billions of dollars without doing something highly illegal/unethical/dangerous to cause Superman to take issue with it and therefore just has to constantly plot how to take out Superman? I mean, granted, I could never really stand to pay much attention to anything involving Superman, but you'd think they'd at least try at some point to explain that rivalry in a way that I'd understand it after all these decades. Louis & Clark was pretty much the best Superman they've had to offer, and I honestly don't remember a thing about the show other than the actors and that I watched it occasionally. Smallville I really actually tried to get into, but just couldn't, and it was basically trying to do with Superman what Gothem is doing with Batman now.

Wonder Woman I could see potential to be a great character if they tried with her, but they just really haven't, and they've done next to nothing with everyone else. I'm sure they have in the comics, but I've just never really cared about comics, and when it comes to comic book heroes converted to cartoons or TV series or movies, Marvel just has so much better and more interesting and less ridiculously overpowered characters all around.

And I think most people who aren't big into comic books feel more or less the same way. Batman is slightly more than a one-dimensional do-gooder and has an amazing cast of memorable villains, and Superman just feels one dimensional and stupidly overpowered with one memorable villain that doesn't really make any real coherent sense as a villain, and the rest of DC's cast of characters just haven't been properly marketed or promoted for people to care about them.
Actually DC's tv content, both animated and live action tend to be better received than Marvel's. Marvel has plenty of overpowered characters, they just haven't made it into the movies or tv shows or if they have it's not enough to leave an impression.

Of all the Marvel animated series, the only ones I see getting praise are the X-Men and Spider-Man shows from Fox Kids and those are seriously dated. If you heard the name Iron Man before 2008, chances are you either thought of the Black Sabbath song or the crappy show that only lasted 2 seasons. Don't even get me started on the the Fantastic Four movies and shows.
 

happyninja42

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JimB said:
DoPo said:
Zod didn't have to kill Kal-El to get the whatever-it-was. As in, that wasn't the only option - otherwise Zor-El must have been a really shitty parent by turning his own child into a sacrifice.
Didn't Jor-El only infuse Kal-El with the Magic Juice (I really like that term) as Krypton's destruction was imminent, and therefore presumably no one would be coming after him for it?
They weren't very clear? But if Zor-El didn't want to at least try and save the entire race, why bother injecting Kal-El with the Magic Juice at all? I mean, it doesn't help him develop in any way. The only reason to do that, (aside from the obvious plot point of contention for the movie) would be to hope that at some later date Kal-El could use the Juice to repopulate the Kryptonians. If he was willing to let the entire species die, then there is no need to inject Kal-El. And presumably, the method that Zor-El was going to have Kal-El use woulnd't be lethal? I mean, it never comes up, so we can only speculate, but I can think of some more..*cough* natural and manual ways they could extract the Juice from Kal-El....giggity. I never got the idea when I watched it, that it would kill Kal-El. The only issue on that front that I recall them discussing was the whole "Humanity must die, so that Krypton can be reborn." And regardless of how lethal the extraction method was, that was something Kal-El couldn't allow. So they just stopped discussing it at that point and got to the punching.

JimB said:
DoPo said:
The killing part came from two things: Zod had really extreme views, ones that Kal-El didn't agree with, hence Kal-El didn't want to go with Zod. And Zod, being an extremist, saw killing Kal-El as his only other option.
So even though it was possible to extract the Magic Juice non-lethally, submitting to the procedure still would have killed Kal-El just 'cause Zod's evil?
*shrugs* Probably? Zod wasn't really thinking rationally at all. And he definitely had a lingering grudge against Zor-El. Even if he could extract it safely, he'd probably want to kill Kal-El, just to get revenge on Zor-El. "I will end your line, and any of your seed before I die." To quote Wesley Studi from The Last of the Mohicans.



JimB said:
DoPo said:
Yet, the Kryptonian fetuses were the only remaining way of saving the Kryptonian race. Call destroying them what you will, but the movie tried very hard to tell us that.
Shrug. I just can't get upset about this. I do not believe any person has a duty to martyr himself for the sake of someone who hasn't even been born.
Someone sure, but an entire race? I mean it wasn't just one person, it was theoretically millions, if not billions of people. And it's not like he just refused to allow them to grow, he consciously chose to destroy them all. Now this is something I don't recall, so help me here. Did they actually extract the Magic Juice from Kal-El at that point in the movie? I don't recall them actually accomplishing the extraction at all. And if the process would be lethal, then obviously they couldn't have taken it. So if they had no Magic Juice, the ship really wasn't any threat at that point to Earth. It could crash on the planet, and assuming the embryos survived the crash (which I'm assuming they did have some good protection), so what? They still wouldn't grow. He could've just left the ship alone, dealt with the crazy zealots, and then talked to Hologram Dad about a way to safely repopulate the Kryptonians. I guess you could say he was making sure that even if he failed to defeat Zod, he would destroy his plan up front. So even if he died, Earth would be safe. And I can see that I guess, but it still meant killing an entire species.


JimB said:
DoPo said:
Ugh, I can't actually remember the reason for having vat-grown babies.
I have a vague idea in my head it's just tradition, to make sure Kryptonians are genetically grown into their castes, but bugger if I remember. It's been two years since I saw the movie.
I'm pretty sure it was because that was the method they were using at the time. The Gattaca approach to breeding. Genetically engineering the children first for their specific roles, and then giving them the Magic Juice to actually start the growth process into fully developed being.


JimB said:
DoPo said:
Regardless, the fetuses were the only means of saving the Kryptonian race - sure, there was a Kryptonian woman and more than one Kryptonian men alive and capable of reproducing, but they can't just repopulate a planet. Not enough genetic diversity there.
Given that their entire species blew up, I think they got off pretty light if a little inbreeding is the worst they have to deal with to repopulate; particularly when the species has the technology to manipulate genes. Unless that technology can only be done in utero and the Magic Juice can't be reproduced and fuck me this movie is stupid! God!
XD Yes, the movie has some Phantom Zone size plot holes in it.
A little inbreeding isn't the case. Over time, the amount of...recessive mutations (?, I think that's the right term, not a geneticist), would simply kill them off. That's not a "little" inbreeding. XD You would need (at least I read this once, not sure how accurate), at a minimum 2000 healthy, diverse breeding pairs (important note there, 2000 breeding pairs, not elderly or infertile) to be able to sustain a healthy genetic diversity. Interesting note, and TOTALLY sidenote, the amount of people that Schindler directly saved from the Nazis was almost 2000 Jews(I've heard varying numbers, but most are within a few hundred of 2000). Which means, Schindler almost single handedly insured the genetic survivability of the Jewish genome, even if every other Jew died. Which I thought was pretty damn cool.

And yes, you could say they could use the Magic Science machines to just tweak genes, it's not like anything else in the movie is scientifically accurate. But they would probably take the route of "we can only manipulate the same original material so much before it becomes redundant." But i don't know, I'm just speculating here at this point.


JimB said:
Therumancer said:
[Lex Luthor]'s been rebooted so many times, through so many parallel universes, that I'm not even 100% sure what his current motivation is supposed to be.
In Nu52, I believe he's a human supremacist. Fuck aliens! Dey took urr jobs!
Now I'm picturing him having a terrible toupe to cover up his bald head, and possibly running for president or something! xD Wouldn't that be funny?!....wait...oh shit! :O
 

happyninja42

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Proto Taco said:
Just imagine what would happen if Superman had Batman's wallet. Ohhh the possibilities...
What would he need the money for? I mean, Batman basically uses his bottomless account to compensate for his lack of superpowers. Superman doesn't really need to compensate for anything. I mean, Batman could fund a massive relief effort in some war torn area, or to construct some new...hell I don't know, orphaned puppy shelter. Superman could just...build the freaking shelter, probably at superspeed too. So I'm curious what you think Superman would need the funds to accomplish that he couldn't do anyway? Please elaborate. xD
 

DoPo

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JimB said:
DoPo said:
Zod didn't have to kill Kal-El to get the whatever-it-was. As in, that wasn't the only option - otherwise Zor-El must have been a really shitty parent by turning his own child into a sacrifice.
Didn't Jor-El only infuse Kal-El with the Magic Juice (I really like that term) as Krypton's destruction was imminent, and therefore presumably no one would be coming after him for it?
Still, what father would basically doom his child to die? Aside from the Abrahamic God (well, that may be debatable), it'd be a pretty shitty father.

JimB said:
DoPo said:
The killing part came from two things: Zod had really extreme views, ones that Kal-El didn't agree with, hence Kal-El didn't want to go with Zod. And Zod, being an extremist, saw killing Kal-El as his only other option.
So even though it was possible to extract the Magic Juice non-lethally, submitting to the procedure still would have killed Kal-El just 'cause Zod's evil?
No, I don't think the procedure would have killed Kal-El. But since he didn't agree to just submit willingly, Zod was perfectly happy with using a corpse.

JimB said:
DoPo said:
Ugh, I can't actually remember the reason for having vat-grown babies.
I have a vague idea in my head it's just tradition, to make sure Kryptonians are genetically grown into their castes, but bugger if I remember. It's been two years since I saw the movie.
Yeah, while I can't remember, I think the reason was stupid. It's a relatively safe assumption to make, given most of the decisions that were presented in the movie.

JimB said:
and fuck me this movie is stupid! God!
You get why I'd think the above.
 

happyninja42

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DoPo said:
JimB said:
and fuck me this movie is stupid! God!
You get why I'd think the above.
I might be remembering an above post wrong, but I thought JimB said they liked Man of Steel. xD If so, we've broken them of the movie! Yes! *highfive*
 

JimB

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Happyninja42 said:
What boink-capable Kryptonians exist in the Nolan-verse aside from Kal-El at this point?
All the ones in the Phantom Zone. Though I guess Faora might be the only female of the lot, huh?

Happyninja42 said:
Heh, that fact didn't bother me much, compared to the other bits that got on my nerves with that movie.
It's not so much the specific question as it is that I have a thing about not being able to find the answer to a question in my mind. It bugs me.

Happyninja42 said:
Good luck finding your answer!
Thanks, bro.

Happyninja42 said:
But if Jor-El didn't want to at least try and save the entire race, why bother injecting Kal-El with the Magic Juice at all?
I think it was something to do with him having the genetic potential of all of Krypton's castes.

Happyninja42 said:
I never got the idea when I watched it that it would kill Kal-El.
I swear there's a creepy, unnamed, Kryptonian doctor character who has a line about needing to harvest it from Kal-El's very cells and he wouldn't survive the process, but my memory of the minutiae of this movie doesn't seem to agree with many others'.

Happyninja42 said:
Someone sure, but an entire race? I mean it wasn't just one person, it was theoretically millions, if not billions of people.
If their lives matter, then so does Kal-El's, and he has a right not to die.

Happyninja42 said:
Now this is something I don't recall, so help me here. Did they actually extract the Magic Juice from Kal-El at that point in the movie? I don't recall them actually accomplishing the extraction at all.
No. I'm nearly positive they never did.

Happyninja42 said:
You would need (at least I read this once, not sure how accurate), at a minimum 2000 healthy, diverse breeding pairs (important note there, 2000 breeding pairs, not elderly or infertile) to be able to sustain a healthy genetic diversity.
Pshaw. I scoff at your numbers. According to the Architect in the Matrix Reloaded, it only takes like twenty people. That's not science fiction, that's science fact right there!

DoPo said:
Still, what father would basically doom his child to die?
Every father ever. We're all mortal, bro. To be born is to begin dying.

DoPo said:
No, I don't think the procedure would have killed Kal-El. But since he didn't agree to just submit willingly, Zod was perfectly happy with using a corpse.
I am willing to provisionally concede your memory of the chain of events. It doesn't match mine, but I don't remember clearly enough to argue with certainty.

Happyninja42 said:
I thought JimB said he liked Man of Steel.
Nah. When it first came out, I thought it was okay, but I had serious problems with it (the criminal acts of vengeance, the 9/11 porn, the laughable CGI) that festered in my mind until I began to genuinely hate it the movie. It's gotten to the point where people on this site just roll their eyes and call me a hater any time I stick my head into a discussion of Batman 5 Superman: Dawn of Cynical, Joyless Franchise-Building. I can't imagine why.
 

Sarge034

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Samtemdo8 said:
Adam Jensen said:
I didn't even know that this was a thing. But now that you mentioned it, he's definitely more relatable than Superman.
Its because of that attitude is why we don't get any good Non Batman DC content. Name one GOOD Wonder Woman, Green Latern, and Flash comic book right out of your head?

Batman monoplized DC's attention. Batman sadly has become the face of DC when really it should be Superman.

Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg
So it's not that you have an issue with the whole "Batman is more relatable than Sumperman" thing, it's just that you're in camp Sumperman. I think Batman is more relatable than Superman only because Batman is flawed and human because of it. Sumperman is, by definition, the perfect man. That was how his character was written so to try and write is any other way is not Superman really. He's a cardboard cutout of a character with no depth and was nothing more than good ol Americana propaganda.
 

Redryhno

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Sarge034 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Adam Jensen said:
I didn't even know that this was a thing. But now that you mentioned it, he's definitely more relatable than Superman.
Its because of that attitude is why we don't get any good Non Batman DC content. Name one GOOD Wonder Woman, Green Latern, and Flash comic book right out of your head?

Batman monoplized DC's attention. Batman sadly has become the face of DC when really it should be Superman.

Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg
So it's not that you have an issue with the whole "Batman is more relatable than Sumperman" thing, it's just that you're in camp Sumperman. I think Batman is more relatable than Superman only because Batman is flawed and human because of it. Sumperman is, by definition, the perfect man. That was how his character was written so to try and write is any other way is not Superman really. He's a cardboard cutout of a character with no depth and was nothing more than good ol Americana propaganda.
To be fair, he sorta morphed more into the hopefully peak evolution of humanity from that. Much as Star Trek is the idealized version of what we hope happens when we get to space travel, Superman is what we hope to eventually be able to call ourselves in terms of morality and heart. He can certainly be written as flawed, but it's not often that it happens. And even rarer that it's not just a wank-fest of subversions.
 

deadish

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JimB said:
deadish said:
I meant character flaws.
That being the case, not much I can say. I have seen him have character flaws in various stories written by various people; I have seem him have no character flaws and instead just be a force of goodness to which the rest of the world must react. How much he's flawed depends on the story you read, and if you're not talking about this or that story, then all I can do is shrug.
Generally, he is known as the boy scout though.

JimB said:
deadish said:
Superman would work better if he had a "relatable" starting point within his mythos. People love a zero to hero story; shounen manga has exploited that trope to death. But...he was born "super," so...
That is not true of any post-Golden Age story I'm personally aware of--he had no powers as a child, and was a teenager before he developed them meaningfully after absorbing years of solar radiation--but I will admit to being ignorant of what his Nu52 origin is.
He was still born with his powers. He was never an "everyman" or a "loser". With or without his powers, he was always the model son, i.e. far from relatable.

edit: Now I don't mean this in a mean way, but Superman is "that guy". You know, the "prick" that makes everyone look bad in comparison? Yeah, not relatable.
 

Gatx

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Superman was raised by a middle-class couple in the Midwestern United states and grew up on a farm.

Batman was born into a wealthy family and inherited the fortune after the traumatic murder of his parents before his eyes.

Boom right there, you don't choose how relatable a character he is because of their abilities, but by their, you know, character.

Spider-man would be the most relatable, big profile superhero because he's a nerdy young adult who can't catch a break, irregardless of how many people have spider related powers.
 

DoPo

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JimB said:
DoPo said:
Still, what father would basically doom his child to die?
Every father ever. We're all mortal, bro. To be born is to begin dying.
While true, that's not what I meant and I think you know it - I'm talking about intentionally shortening the child's life. How many fathers would do that with full knowledge of the fact and willingly. And aren't shitty fathers. And as I mentioned, aren't the Abrahamic God (again, which may be debatable).

Erm, on the other hand with the absurd amount of "Superman is totally Jesus, you guys!" in the movie, maybe that was actually the idea. Jor-El, might be God, then.
 

JimB

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deadish said:
Generally, he is known as the Boy Scout, though.
And George Washington is "generally" known to have said that Americans need guns to protect them from the government, despite the statement that misquote is based on saying nothing of the sort. What people who don't read the comics "generally" know means very little to me.

deadish said:
He was still born with his powers.
I do not understand how someone who had no super powers when he was born can be said to be born with super powers. That seems like exactly the opposite.

deadish said:
He was never an "everyman" or a "loser."
The explicit purpose of John Byrne rebooting Superman's origin after the success of the theatrical movie wis to make him human during his formative years; to give him the frailties and experiences of being human as a child so the man he would become was shaped by an understanding of what it is to be human. If you insist on ignoring the stories that have been told in order to bolster your own point, then I think we have nothing left to say to one another.

deadish said:
Now I don't mean this in a mean way, but Superman is "that guy." You know, the "prick" that makes everyone look bad in comparison? Yeah, not relatable.
No, I don't really know. He's someone who cares that you're okay and tries to help when you're in trouble. I get that there are people who get angry at this and need to attack him for it, but in the same breath, I don't get it.

DoPo said:
While true, that's not what I meant and I think you know it - I'm talking about intentionally shortening the child's life.
I do not understand how Jor-El can be held accountable for not knowing Zod would manage the impossible task of escaping the Phantom Zone and find Kal-El in the vastness of the universe.

deadish said:
Erm, on the other hand with the absurd amount of "Superman is totally Jesus, you guys!" in the movie, maybe that was actually the idea. Jor-El, might be God, then.
Pretty much. For Jor-El so loved mankind he sent his only begotten son to them.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Sarge034 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Adam Jensen said:
I didn't even know that this was a thing. But now that you mentioned it, he's definitely more relatable than Superman.
Its because of that attitude is why we don't get any good Non Batman DC content. Name one GOOD Wonder Woman, Green Latern, and Flash comic book right out of your head?

Batman monoplized DC's attention. Batman sadly has become the face of DC when really it should be Superman.

Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg
So it's not that you have an issue with the whole "Batman is more relatable than Sumperman" thing, it's just that you're in camp Sumperman. I think Batman is more relatable than Superman only because Batman is flawed and human because of it. Sumperman is, by definition, the perfect man. That was how his character was written so to try and write is any other way is not Superman really. He's a cardboard cutout of a character with no depth and was nothing more than good ol Americana propaganda.
Not so much as I am camp Superman as I am trying to be a more general DC fan. I like Batman but my goodness to some DC fans its ALL and ONLY Batman. As if the other heroes does not matter.

Its like as a DC fan I am stuck between 2 camps. Batman fans and Marvel fans.
 

Cicada 5

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Sarge034 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Adam Jensen said:
I didn't even know that this was a thing. But now that you mentioned it, he's definitely more relatable than Superman.
Its because of that attitude is why we don't get any good Non Batman DC content. Name one GOOD Wonder Woman, Green Latern, and Flash comic book right out of your head?

Batman monoplized DC's attention. Batman sadly has become the face of DC when really it should be Superman.

Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg
So it's not that you have an issue with the whole "Batman is more relatable than Sumperman" thing, it's just that you're in camp Sumperman. I think Batman is more relatable than Superman only because Batman is flawed and human because of it. Sumperman is, by definition, the perfect man. That was how his character was written so to try and write is any other way is not Superman really. He's a cardboard cutout of a character with no depth and was nothing more than good ol Americana propaganda.
Yes and I'm sure a story about a rich white guy beating the crap out of the poor and mentally ill is totally not devoid of dated beliefs itself.

And quite frankly your idea that writing Superman as less than perfect is "not really Superman" is pretty narrow minded and ignores how characters change and evolve over time. Batman started out as using a gun and today hates them as much as Indiana Jones hates snakes. By your logic, modern Batman isn't really Batman.
 

DoPo

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JimB said:
DoPo said:
While true, that's not what I meant and I think you know it - I'm talking about intentionally shortening the child's life.
I do not understand how Jor-El can be held accountable for not knowing Zod would manage the impossible task of escaping the Phantom Zone and find Kal-El in the vastness of the universe.
That is not actually what I'm talking about either. If Jor-El included the MacGuffin in Kal-El, and the only way for it to be taken out is killing Kal-El, that's Jor-El dooming his son to death. Unless he did not expect the MacGuffin to ever be used, then why add it in the first place?

No, it was very deliberately given to Kal-El as Jor-El's way of trying to potentially preserve the Kryptonians. Again, that means that if it absolutely required his son's death, that means Jor-El was a shitty father.
 

JimB

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DoPo said:
If Jor-El included the MacGuffin in Kal-El, and the only way for it to be taken out is killing Kal-El, that's Jor-El dooming his son to death. Unless he did not expect the MacGuffin to ever be used, then why add it in the first place?
To empower Kal-El, not to save Krypton. Why would Jor-El want to preserve the caste system he rebelled against by siring Kal-El in the first place, a caste system dependent on the Magic Juice in Kal-El?