Can we stop with the "Batman is more relatable than Superman" thing?

Lunar Templar

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Slice said:
Lunar Templar said:
Batman has never been 'relatable' compared to Superman. It's just one boring OP Mary Sue vs another boring OP Mary Sue
Do you actually know what "Mary Sue" means? Which author is Batman wish fulfillment for? Are you really saying that all Batman stories are badly written?
Not sure how Batman having 'good story's' makes him less boring and over powered. You can make a good story with any character if you have a good writer, doesn't make the character any less boring and over powered the rest of the time.
 

Redryhno

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undeadsuitor said:
Superman embodies hope. Batman embodies bitter cynicism. It's no wonder which the internet likes more.
They both embody alot more than that. Batman's had more than his fair share of lightheartedness, Superman more than everyone else's fair share of brooding. Not to mention Superman is the perfect idealized being for the most part, while Batman's been alot more about grief funneled into intense focus and self-determinism as a somewhat normal person.
 

sageoftruth

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Fox12 said:
Well, he is more relateable then superman. A rock is more relateable then superman. My distaste for the man of steel has only increased after a certain hero blew open how incredibly stupid a bland, OP character really is.


I don't care that Superman is powerful. He's just so boring, and poorly developed. No personality whatsoever.

Cue someone talking about how he's a symbol of hope/what we should aspire to yada yada
Ah, I see you had your Saitama card ready before I did. He absolutely needed to be mentioned in this discussion.

Fate Zero also made a good point about this in the discussion between Saber and Rider. If you haven't seen it, *Possible spoiler* Rider mocks Saber for trying too hard to be a paragon of virtue without ever letting her self-indulgent human side show to her followers. As a result of this, her followers idolized her, but none of them felt they could ever hope to emulate her. Her dedication to moral perfection and her refusal to show any weakness only served to convince her followers that her standards were out of their reach, so when she passed away, she had no one to succeeded her and her kingdom crumbled.

On a similar note, Superman comes across the same way. In addition to being OP, he's just too altruistic. A man without flaws is not a man one can relate to.
 

Win32error

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Okay, i haven't read all of the posts and i'm not actually that much into either character. Maybe that gives me some perspective, maybe i'm about to say something stupid.

It's hard to talk about superman and batman as if they are simply a single character with a singular motivation. The time and place in their lives, their environment (basically solo or justice league appearances) and their writers are simply too diverse to speak of them that simply. Just look at how different the characters will seem in the live-action movies compared to their cartoon appearances. That's going to change how well you can relate to a character.

What i guess i'm trying to say is that both superman and batman can be written in a very relatable way. Batman seems a lot more psychotic and off the rails whenever he's on his own compared to when he shows up with the justice league or that extended family of his. Superman is hard to relate to when he's the heaviest hitter on the justice league, but he's a lot more easy to identify with when he's got a few scenes in Kansas, or at work at the daily planet.

That being said, it's very well possible that right now, Batman is easier to relate to for most audiences. He faces a challenge from more mortal enemies than superman usually does, and that's maybe what people want right now. A large part of that can be seen in the Nolan trilogy: He's fighting an analogy for terrorists, and he's struggling. He's portrayed as suffering, but enduring the load because he has to. Easier to relate to than a space alien, at least at this time. It's very possible that looking back on it in 20 years, Nolan's batman will seem like a psychopath who should be receiving about as much psychiatric treatment as the joker.


Basically, Batman has the edge now, but always look at the different portrayals and roles they play in the overarching story. Relatable sure, but relatable to what audience?
 

CrazyGirl17

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While neither are "relatable", I still like both these characters... as long as they're being handled by talented writers. Batman and Superman are tricky characters to write for, but when they're done right, they can be enjoyable to read about. When written badly, well...
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Happyninja42 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Adam Jensen said:
I didn't even know that this was a thing. But now that you mentioned it, he's definitely more relatable than Superman.
Its because of that attitude is why we don't get any good Non Batman DC content. Name one GOOD Wonder Woman, Green Latern, and Flash comic book right out of your head?

Batman monoplized DC's attention. Batman sadly has become the face of DC when really it should be Superman.

Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg
He's the most popular of the heroes. I'm sorry that you don't like it, but the people buying the comics are speaking with their dollars. And yes, again, I hate it for you, but Batman IS more relatable than Superman, and any other person with superpowers. Because he is just a guy with a huge budget and training. And on a relatability scale, that IS more relatable than aliens and mutants and magical beings.

You seem to be of the opinion that the fans are putting all their money into Batman, because he's the only game in town? Pretty sure it's the other way around. Fans have clamored for Batman content, and DC has supplied the demand. I guess you could say it's a chicken or the egg kind of debate, but I personally don't think it's the way you handle it. If Batman ever stopped making them money, because the fans were simply over saturated with him and couldn't give a shit, they would stop publishing him. They are in it for the money after all.

Personally, I don't find Batman all that interesting, especially as writers bend over so far backwards that they have their heads up their own asses, to justify Batman being "on par" with beings who can crack planets in half. It's gotten to the point of silliness as far as I'm concerned, but hey, I don't write comics, so I'm sure they don't care what I think.
So Superman being raised by Papa and Mama Kent is not relatable. And don't mention the ones from Man of Steel.

And Superman in his teens actually went to school.

The relatability of Superman comes from his alter ego Clark Kent.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Amir Kondori said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Adam Jensen said:
I didn't even know that this was a thing. But now that you mentioned it, he's definitely more relatable than Superman.
Its because of that attitude is why we don't get any good Non Batman DC content. Name one GOOD Wonder Woman, Green Latern, and Flash comic book right out of your head?

Batman monoplized DC's attention. Batman sadly has become the face of DC when really it should be Superman.

Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg
Superman completely bores me. First of all he isn't even human, he is some alien from a dead world. Not a deal breaker but definitely makes it harder to look up to him. Second of all he is a super boring, always does the right thing no question about it kind of character. Because he only has one contrived weakness there is seldom any real danger he is in.

All in all I find Superman to one of the most boring comic book characters ever put to paper.
Again you clearly never read any of the books or even bothered to watch the Animated Series. He was not even raised in this alien world. He see's himself just as human then alien at times.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Jute88 said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg
You know, why he's in the middle? Because he's the only one in the group that stands out (except for the woman on the left). And when you do a group shot, you want the person, who stands out, to be in the middle. Simple as that.
Really? IMO the guy covered in Red with Yellow Cross on his whole body stands out more?

And again its still wrong to not have Superman in the center.

Superman inspires leadership, loyalty, authority, hope. A man you will stand and guide people to victory.

Batman rules through fear.
 

Fox12

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sageoftruth said:
Fox12 said:
Well, he is more relateable then superman. A rock is more relateable then superman. My distaste for the man of steel has only increased after a certain hero blew open how incredibly stupid a bland, OP character really is.


I don't care that Superman is powerful. He's just so boring, and poorly developed. No personality whatsoever.

Cue someone talking about how he's a symbol of hope/what we should aspire to yada yada
Ah, I see you had your Saitama card ready before I did. He absolutely needed to be mentioned in this discussion.

Fate Zero also made a good point about this in the discussion between Saber and Rider. If you haven't seen it, *Possible spoiler* Rider mocks Saber for trying too hard to be a paragon of virtue without ever letting her self-indulgent human side show to her followers. As a result of this, her followers idolized her, but none of them felt they could ever hope to emulate her. Her dedication to moral perfection and her refusal to show any weakness only served to convince her followers that her standards were out of their reach, so when she passed away, she had no one to succeeded her and her kingdom crumbled.

On a similar note, Superman comes across the same way. In addition to being OP, he's just too altruistic. A man without flaws is not a man one can relate to.
I think that's a very good point.

My problem with that type of hero is that he's destined to be one of two things. He's either a paragon of virtue, meant to embody everything that's "good" in society, or he's a kind if caricature of that. He was played completely straight in the 1950's, and in many ways he was the symbol of American power. All powerful, but also all good, and all knowing. I think this is very dangerous. Alternatively, he's used as a symbol of everything that's wrong with America. We saw this in The Dark Knight Returns, and the idea was also addressed by The Comedian in Watchmen. My problem is that, in either case, Superman himself isn't really a character. He's just an idea. A litmus test for how America feels about itself at the moment. That makes him interesting from a sociological point of view, but it doesn't necessarily make him a good character.

It's not that Superman can't be a good character. It's that, thus far, he hasn't been. The best iteration of him that I can think of was probably from the animated series, where he was a little more human, and wasn't treated as a paragon of virtue or a symbol of evil. The problems he faced were a little more complex.

He was handled a little better there. The thing is, I think Batman gets that treatment far more often. People die in his stories. He makes mistakes. He has to make the hard decisions, and live with the consequences when he's wrong. This, for me, makes him much more relateable.
 

ChaoGuy2006

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Fox12 said:
Snip

People die in [Batman's] stories. He makes mistakes. He has to make the hard decisions, and live with the consequences when he's wrong. This, for me, makes him much more relateable.
I agree with your theory on Batman and how Supes is a mirror for America (more so than Capt America, who keeps the values he's always upheld- even if that's the opposite to what the country is doing). But I think Superman is relatable to some people.
Those who have been looked up to (from a younger sibling, child, student, a community member, even a lover),
Those who have a lot of responsibility and fear failing to be able to keep it up at all times (setting a good example to those who look up to you, or looking after someone or something),
And even those who those who have felt alienated and that the second they try to relax and be themselves then everything goes wrong (be it awkwardness, hiding part of your personality that clashes with how people perceive you, even a secret that would change how people treat you).

Batman is relatable to everyone as they go through some of what he does.
Friends will praise him, but without preparation and hard work, a new surprise could knock him flat on his ass and laugh at him.
He does the right thing while debating if it makes a difference- and little moments tell him it is, and soul-crushing events make him question again.
To those who are cynical, they also share his "I'm the only one thinking straight" attitude when a problem arises when others would think more with their heart (and yet those people I find are often the ones with the softest hearts).

Is it a worrying sign of our times that more people can relate to someone who is cynical from their belief in a good world being shaken time and again, than someone who is meant to to be the embodiment of hope and that when you have responsibilities you will be able to meet them and excel past them?
Do we have less people to look up to us?
Do we have more reasons to be cynical- and is it understandable?

And to add to the duality of the two:
Superman has almost always been able to keep his responsibilities.
Batman had to learn how to and made mistakes before he got to the level of Superman.
Naturally Gifted vs. Self improvement.
 

Fox12

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ChaoGuy2006 said:
Is it a worrying sign of our times that more people can relate to someone who is cynical from their belief in a good world being shaken time and again, than someone who is meant to to be the embodiment of hope and that when you have responsibilities you will be able to meet them and excel past them?
Do we have less people to look up to us?
Do we have more reasons to be cynical- and is it understandable?
It's something to consider. When I look at a heroic figure, what I see is a tool that is being used by an institution to influence my behavior. Maybe it's the government, maybe it's the media, maybe it's an organization. Abraham Lincoln was a racist, who took away people's rights to a trial by jury, and who was probably one of our worst war time presidents. And yet, now, he's been built up into a sort of folk hero that is nothing like the actual man. The problem is that people will knowingly try and create a heroic image in order to win popular support for political figures. A very extreme example is Hitler. A less extreme example would be Mother Theresa, who left sick people to die on the floor, when a simple trip to a real hospital could have saved them. If something seems too good to be true, that's because it probably is. Maybe it's a sign that I'm somewhat cynical when it comes to figure heads, and maybe that says something about our generation. I'm hesitant to trust a puritanical savior, and I'm tired of other people waiting for a visionary to come and save the day, of a hero to relieve them of personal responsibility. I'd prefer for people to try and solve their own problems. Batman, I think, reflects this cynicism. He doesn't trust authority. Maybe that's why he's witnessed a surge in popularity.

And yet, I don't think the world is "worse" either. In fact, I think it's getting better, and it's getting better because thousands of people across many fields are making progress. One scientist is discovering a cure to a disease, while another is learning to produce more food, reducing world hunger. These unsung heroes may not be smashing meteors, or preventing alien invasions, but they're making the world a better place in the long run. While Superman's saving the universe, Batman is tracking down a kidnapped girl. Maybe that's why I prize Batman's little victories over Superman's massive ones. They feel more real, and they remind me that there are things we all can do to improve the world around us. Sometimes things don't pan out. Sometimes things go wrong. But that's not an excuse to stop trying. We pick ourselves back up, and we try again anyway.

Sometimes Batman is poorly written. Sometimes his views are problematic. But, between him and Superman, I definitely feel like he's a more relateable figure.
 

ChaoGuy2006

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Fox12 said:
Abraham Lincoln was a racist
But, he freed the slaves? Wut?

Fox12 said:
[Snip]

I'm hesitant to trust a puritanical savior, and I'm tired of other people waiting for a visionary to come and save the day. Of a hero to relieve them of personal responsibility. I'd prefer for people to try and solve their own problems. Batman, I think, reflects this cynicism. He doesn't trust authority. Maybe that's why he's witnessed a surge in popularity.
Very interesting point. It's perfectly healthy to doubt those to have the capability to change your mind or ruin your life- no matter how much their beliefs/morals mach up with your own (never "listen and believe", always ask for concrete evidence. Someone offering an easy solution is lying or an idiot. Someone offering no solution while stirring up panic has something to gain from it, etc) and know the best way to achive anything is through hard work.

Back on track: with the web we've been seeing more about the world, getting better informed, and informing others. It's thanks to a free internet we're able to do that. As more people are discovering how badly some people are getting screwed over, or how someone has spread lies to screw someone else over, it's no wonder everyone is begging for (or wants to be) the world's greatest detective.
 

Redryhno

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undeadsuitor said:
Redryhno said:
undeadsuitor said:
Superman embodies hope. Batman embodies bitter cynicism. It's no wonder which the internet likes more.
They both embody alot more than that. Batman's had more than his fair share of lightheartedness, Superman more than everyone else's fair share of brooding. Not to mention Superman is the perfect idealized being for the most part, while Batman's been alot more about grief funneled into intense focus and self-determinism as a somewhat normal person.
Of course both characters are more than my short descriptions. They're literally older than most people reading their comics right now. They've had plenty of time to go completely around the character circle. But what each REPRESENTS, is two conflicting ideals. With one ideal perfectly encapsulating internet culture. (I'll let you guess which one)
Again, you're honestly taking single parts and deciding that to be the sole factor separating the two of them for people. Which I honestly have to say is one of the most cynical or ignorant things I've seen in regards to this debate. Yes, Superman can be hope and ideals, and Batman can be cynicism, but there's a large portion of Batman that is ALL about hope that many people ignore, especially when they want to make these kinds of arguments.

I like Batman more because he sometimes has to compromise for a better tomorrow, that he uses his wits to overcome those that are physically superior to him, that he's honestly a pretty caring person despite his past, and that the crap he deals with he tries to make sure others don't have to be bothered with it unless he can't handle it on his own. I value consistency and being able to depend on one's self despite adversity, and that's what I see in Batman.

Superman largely doesn't have that. He's alot smarter than people give him credit for(but let's be fair here, he's often surrounded by the brightest minds in the world so it doesn't show), but he doesn't have the deductive mind of Bruce, or the military experience and pragmatism of Diana. He's alright, but Kansas is often just his background and where his mother lives, the Daily Planet is just where Kent works as a cover, and his humanity is often overlooked in favor of his Kal'El'ness because he's the only "ideal" superhero left in DC's wheelhouse for the most part. In comparison, Gotham is Bruce's home, the Amazonians are Diana's family and people, and Earth is the Lantern's(whoever is in charge at the moment) responsibility. Metropolis is where Clark Kent lives, and it's what Superman protects, but it's not the same for both sides of the character. Outside of hyper-advanced tech and ancient magics, he doesn't really have anything he has to worry about that his nuclear powers can't protect or allow him to fight back against, so he doesn't have options he has to pursue very often beyond "Do I really need to not kill him?".

I'm not saying Superman's a bad character, he's just not really all that interesting or relateable to me for reasons far more complex than simple idealistic vs. cynical. And I"d honestly be willing to bet quite a bit that for most of the internet that it comes down to alot more than that as well.
 

Something Amyss

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undeadsuitor said:
Of course both characters are more than my short descriptions. They're literally older than most people reading their comics right now. They've had plenty of time to go completely around the character circle. But what each REPRESENTS, is two conflicting ideals. With one ideal perfectly encapsulating internet culture. (I'll let you guess which one)
Pretty sure Batman never SWATs. >.>

Though I hear he did dox Flash after a LoL game went the wrong way.
 

Azrael the Cat

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I couldn't care less about relatability, if you're going to define that as 'being similar to me' - that's the last thing I'd look for in a comic book, or in any 'genre piece' regardless of medium.

I prefer Batman because he has more interesting moral flaws. Many of those flaws actually make him LESS relatable (the obsession and slow loss of any self outside of 'the Bat'), but they're also what makes him interesting.

Sure, neither character will ever 'lose' a story arc (though Batman's lack of powers forces the writers to be more creative with how he gets there). But Superman will always win in the same bland golden-boy manner, exemplifying righteousness over all. Batman might always defeat the bad guy, but he could win, lose, draw or opt out of the internal battle. When Batman defeats Talia al Ghul, but dies a little more inside, so that he realises that there's barely anything left of Bruce Wayne, and he isn't sure if he's even capable of having a healthy romantic relationship, it's not really a 'win' in terms of the larger dramatic picture. Other times, he pulls himself together and experiences genuine friendship and happiness for extended periods of time. There's far more scope for different dramatic outcomes than there is for Superman - not because he has superpowers, because Superman is MORALLY one-dimensional.
 

Fox12

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ChaoGuy2006 said:
But, he freed the slaves? Wut?
lol, yeah, that's what I thought when I first researched him. He was very much a politician. He didn't want to free the slaves at all. In fact, he opposed those who wanted to free the slaves until later in the war. He eventually freed them as a wartime measure in order to stop England and France from joining the Confederacy. Not that the Confederacy was any better, of course. They started the whole mess.
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm

Edit: To be fair, it's possible to be racist and still oppose slavery. Lincoln didn't really care about slavery, he just wanted to save the union.


Very interesting point. It's perfectly healthy to doubt those to have the capability to change your mind or ruin your life- no matter how much their beliefs/morals mach up with your own (never "listen and believe", always ask for concrete evidence. Someone offering an easy solution is lying or an idiot. Someone offering no solution while stirring up panic has something to gain from it, etc) and know the best way to achive anything is through hard work.
Batman and Superman seem to fluctuate in popularity, depending on what is happening in America. If nothing else, I think it's very interesting what this says about us.
 

Cicada 5

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Redryhno said:
Agent_Z said:
Asita said:
...Really people? We're going with the "Batman's rich, that makes him unrelatable" bit? When compared to Superman? The guy who has historically had a "Fortress of Solitude" which is for all intents and purposes a private island made of kryptonian crystal capable of storing information, containing advanced service robots, robot duplicates of Superman, a supercomputer, a zoo for extra-terrestrial species, labs for anti-kryptonite experiments, accommodations for his friends, and pretty much all the alien tech he came across and decided to keep? Let's not mince words here, Clark is at a minimum very wealthy through the worth of his assets alone, if not insanely so. He is the prince pretending to be a pauper by working a middle class job, not a true middle class citizen.
The Fortress has never been used as a source of income for Superman. At most, it's just where he stores the Phantom Zone projector and even the robot Superman aren't a constant. Batman's wealth has been shown as the source of funding for everything the Justice League has and yet he still has enough to keep his company afloat, form an organization of Batmen etc.
Yet he's rarely ever had consequences for retreating to it for sometimes months on end as Clark Kent. He either has incredible job security either through talent(which we never see really) or an amazing union or something we're not shown.

And it's not like Wayne Enterprises is the only source of income for Bruce, it's got something like a dozen subsidiaries that all are a part of the Wayne umbrella(has Wayne "____" in the name), and at least twice that that are just owned by his family's company. Not to mention it's not like Lex has any business being able to butt heads with Superman either as often as he does since they compared Luthor's and Wayne's net worth at one point and Luthor is something like half of Bruce's wealth. If Batman is outside the realm of possibility because of income, then Lex is even MORE outside the realm of possibility for all the space missions he's behind alone.

Which leaves Superman with a being that literally cannot be killed without coming back stronger and quite possibly immune to what got him last time(and can't be caged due to his amazing adaptability that requires half the Green Lantern Corps to watch him for a week in that state), a galactic emperor that has centuries of experience and genocide to his name, his own people he sticks in the magic no-fun-zone because he's stronger due to being exposed to the yellow sun longer than them and ancient magical horrors being the only things that can even have a CHANCE of standing up to him. Villains make the characters in DC, and when you need immortal beings capable of slaughtering entire universes to be the villains(plural), you lose alot of what you can do with a character.

Agent_Z said:
Bruce and Jason are pretty amicable in the New 52. And Steph did come back. In fact, it was retconned that her death was faked.
So in essence, you're complaining that retcons ruin things? Congrats, it's not like that's never happened before with every comic character. I assumed you were talking about over the long history of Batman and not just the incredibly recent past.
Luthor's political connections have also aided him as well. It helps that contrary to belief, Superman is not universally loved in the DCU. Also, I'm not really sure if that thing with Wayne having more net worth than Luthor is still canon.

That Wayne still has a secret I.D in the DCU is arguably a stretch of suspension of disbelief given the advances in information technology these days.

And mean while Batman has villains that are deemed mentally ill yet somehow are able to form complex schemes that result in triple digit body counts. Bruce's world is even further divorced from reality than Clark in many ways. And at least with Superman the writer aren't trying to insult my intelligence by saying that Doomsady or Darkseid are realistic.

I never complained about retcons ruining things. Don't know how you came to that conclusion.
 

Cicada 5

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Fox12 said:
sageoftruth said:
Fox12 said:
Well, he is more relateable then superman. A rock is more relateable then superman. My distaste for the man of steel has only increased after a certain hero blew open how incredibly stupid a bland, OP character really is.


I don't care that Superman is powerful. He's just so boring, and poorly developed. No personality whatsoever.

Cue someone talking about how he's a symbol of hope/what we should aspire to yada yada
Ah, I see you had your Saitama card ready before I did. He absolutely needed to be mentioned in this discussion.

Fate Zero also made a good point about this in the discussion between Saber and Rider. If you haven't seen it, *Possible spoiler* Rider mocks Saber for trying too hard to be a paragon of virtue without ever letting her self-indulgent human side show to her followers. As a result of this, her followers idolized her, but none of them felt they could ever hope to emulate her. Her dedication to moral perfection and her refusal to show any weakness only served to convince her followers that her standards were out of their reach, so when she passed away, she had no one to succeeded her and her kingdom crumbled.

On a similar note, Superman comes across the same way. In addition to being OP, he's just too altruistic. A man without flaws is not a man one can relate to.

I think that's a very good point.

My problem with that type of hero is that he's destined to be one of two things. He's either a paragon of virtue, meant to embody everything that's "good" in society, or he's a kind if caricature of that. He was played completely straight in the 1950's, and in many ways he was the symbol of American power. All powerful, but also all good, and all knowing. I think this is very dangerous. Alternatively, he's used as a symbol of everything that's wrong with America. We saw this in The Dark Knight Returns, and the idea was also addressed by The Comedian in Watchmen. My problem is that, in either case, Superman himself isn't really a character. He's just an idea. A litmus test for how America feels about itself at the moment. That makes him interesting from a sociological point of view, but it doesn't necessarily make him a good character.

It's not that Superman can't be a good character. It's that, thus far, he hasn't been. The best iteration of him that I can think of was probably from the animated series, where he was a little more human, and wasn't treated as a paragon of virtue or a symbol of evil. The problems he faced were a little more complex.

He was handled a little better there. The thing is, I think Batman gets that treatment far more often. People die in his stories. He makes mistakes. He has to make the hard decisions, and live with the consequences when he's wrong. This, for me, makes him much more relateable.
Again, he's been treated as human in the comics before. They've been doing this for decades.

People have died in Superman stories. He's made mistakes. He's let people down. He's been shown to not have the right answer all the time. Do you really think the Superman TAS was just pulling that out of nowhere? They were actually using material from the damn books. If anything, it's the audience that has treated Superman as more ideal than character despite there being decades of him being the opposite.
 

Fox12

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Agent_Z said:
People have died in Superman stories. He's made mistakes. He's let people down. He's been shown to not have the right answer all the time. Do you really think the Superman TAS was just pulling that out of nowhere? They were actually using material from the damn books. If anything, it's the audience that has treated Superman as more ideal than character despite there being decades of him being the opposite.
I'm not sure why you're getting so upset about this. It really isn't that important. I don't think either character is particularly genius. I just think superman is the more absurd.

But I'll be frank. The Superman comics have been routinely terrible. They're not well written. At all. Neither are any of the films, including the ones with Christopher Reeves. Part of it is the result of having totally different writers, with totally different visions, working on him. Part of it is the fact that he's been turned into an absurd power fantasy character. He's carried around entire planets. He's been smacked between two suns. He's lifted infinity. It's the type of thing a fourth grader would come up with. And yet all of that could be easily forgiven if he felt human. But he doesn't. I have never, ever seen him well written as a human being.