Can we talk about the apparent culture of sexual abuse in the american film industry?

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altnameJag said:
In other entertainment related news: Bill O'Reilly settled a sexual harassment case out of court for 32 million dollars and renewed his contract with Fox News.
Oh, goodie. How is it even possible to settle sexual harrassment cases? I don't understand law.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Pseudonym said:
altnameJag said:
In other entertainment related news: Bill O'Reilly settled a sexual harassment case out of court for 32 million dollars and renewed his contract with Fox News.
Oh, goodie. How is it even possible to settle sexual harrassment cases? I don't understand law.
Okay, so there's two kinds of law, Criminal and Civil.

Criminal law gets you arrested by cops, charged by District Attorneys, and involve prison time. Sexual Assault and Rape fall into that category, assuming you report it in time and the cops and DA don't laugh at you.

Civil law requires you to be sued by another civilians, doesn't involve the cops in any way, and can be dropped at any time. Most forms of fraud, contract violations, misleading advertising, and workplace and sexual harassment and discrimination fall under civil offenses, even if you're being sued by the government. Chances are, anytime you see "(x) is being sue by (y)", it's a civil offense, not a criminal one. Only way you see jail time for a civil offense is through blatant content of court.

That's why companies and people get fined for, say, retaliation against people who complain to HR about the creeps they deal with, but said creeps or rookie xovering for them often don't see jail time.

EDIT: And why high priced corporate legal teams get such a rap for being unbeatable against the average joe. They don't have to win, they just have to make it so unbelievably expensive and time consumin* to fight against that the person with considerably fewer resources doesn't feel it's worth it. Which goes a long way to explain how creepers like Weinstein, O'Reilly, and Ayers can get away with it for so long. Rich as a lot on actors and actresses in Hollywood can be, people like Weinstein are proper wealthy. They're writing the checks for the "Hollywood elite" after all.
 

Dazzle Novak

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altnameJag said:
In other entertainment related news: Bill O'Reilly settled a sexual harassment case out of court for 32 million dollars and renewed his contract with Fox News.
Don't forget the accusation of a "nonconsensual sexual relationship". If only we had a four-letter word for this...
 

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altnameJag said:
workplace and sexual harassment and discrimination fall under civil offenses, even if you're being sued by the government.
Uhuh. Well, then I have just now learned of another thing that explains how the powerful in hollywood keep getting away with this shit. Thanks.
 

The Gnome King

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Another interesting question - is there any difference between sexual abuse and people trying to "sleep their way to the top" as was once pretty common, despite our feelings on it?

I had a manager once want to get a room with me on a business trip, I thought it was inappropriate because I was married and I didn't feel I should have to share a room with another woman on a business trip. I felt it inappropriate because this (older, more powerful) woman tried to force the issue. In the end, though, I decided to stand my ground and not go. I lost the job eventually and lost a large amount of income. It was a *choice* I made, realizing the world is full of creeps and predators, I did what was right for me, morally, at the time. I don't consider myself a victim of this, I consider this a choice I made. If I slept with my manager - who was about 20 years older than I was at the time - I probably could have advanced my career. That was a choice I had to make for myself.

And by the way - there is always a choice, unless you're being physically overpowered. The choice might mean some hard work and hungry nights, but there's always a choice.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

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The Gnome King said:
Another interesting question - is there any difference between sexual abuse and people trying to "sleep their way to the top" as was once pretty common, despite our feelings on it?

I had a manager once want to get a room with me on a business trip, I thought it was inappropriate because I was married and I didn't feel I should have to share a room with another woman on a business trip. I felt it inappropriate because this (older, more powerful) woman tried to force the issue. In the end, though, I decided to stand my ground and not go. I lost the job eventually and lost a large amount of income. It was a *choice* I made, realizing the world is full of creeps and predators, I did what was right for me, morally, at the time. I don't consider myself a victim of this, I consider this a choice I made. If I slept with my manager - who was about 20 years older than I was at the time - I probably could have advanced my career. That was a choice I had to make for myself.

And by the way - there is always a choice, unless you're being physically overpowered. The choice might mean some hard work and hungry nights, but there's always a choice.
The important question is this, though; was what she did okay? Not legal, was it ethical or professional?
 

EternallyBored

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The Gnome King said:
And by the way - there is always a choice, unless you're being physically overpowered. The choice might mean some hard work and hungry nights, but there's always a choice.
Yes, there's a choice, but in most professional positions, especially leadership positions the other side of that equation is also making a choice as pressuring someone into sex for favors and threatening professional backlash, blacklisting, etc. is considered unethical and civilly liable for a number of reasons depending on how much pressure is applied, for large businesses and the very rich we are talking potential payouts in the 10s of millions of dollars, as Mr. O'Reilly recently found out, his choice cost him 32 million dollars. Mr. Weinstein's choice has already cost him his career, legacy, and even the business named after him, and if he ever gets dragged into court his choices will incur a financial cost as well.

Just like a student being pressured into sex by a professor in exchange for good grades indeed has the choice to change schools, or even drop out and find another career track. None of that discards that the professor is in serious ethical breach and will be liable to lose his job, any licenses he may have, and is liable to be sued in civil court.

Even if both parties are willing, ethically and professionally the person in a position of power is putting themselves at serious risk. Especially if you do it multiple times, if you are known to use your power to repeatedly engage in cronyism for sexual favors, someone who claims you harassed them has a solid preponderance of evidence to take you to court and bankrupt you, "beyond a reasonable doubt" only works in criminal court.
 

NiGHTSJOD

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Why did it take so long for such allegations to come out? I mean, I kind of get it why up and coming stars and starlets would stay quiet for fear of their fledgling careers dying. But why did it take so long for well established stars such as Angelina Jolie, Gwenyth Paltrow, Terry Crews etc... to say something? And even now, you have people making references to dodgy scenarios (and I'd well believe it) but why is it that no actual names are coming out? Who grabbed Terry Crews at that function? He's a star in one of the biggest and best comedy TV series' on the air at the moment - I doubt there is any real problem with him naming names at this point (especially if there are witnesses).
 

TheMysteriousGX

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EternallyBored said:
Even if both parties are willing, ethically and professionally the person in a position of power is putting themselves at serious risk. Especially if you do it multiple times, if you are known to use your power to repeatedly engage in cronyism for sexual favors, someone who claims you harassed them has a solid preponderance of evidence to take you to court and bankrupt you, "beyond a reasonable doubt" only works in criminal court.
There's a reason Fraternization is an offense that can get you Court-martialed in the military, voluntary as it may be.

Also, @TheGnomeKing, why aren't you considering yourself to be the victim of a crime, considering that's exactly what you are? No, seriously, if turning down your manager cost you your job, that's retaliation. It's illegal as shit, man.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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NiGHTSJOD said:
Why did it take so long for such allegations to come out? I mean, I kind of get it why up and coming stars and starlets would stay quiet for fear of their fledgling careers dying. But why did it take so long for well established stars such as Angelina Jolie, Gwenyth Paltrow, Terry Crews etc... to say something? And even now, you have people making references to dodgy scenarios (and I'd well believe it) but why is it that no actual names are coming out? Who grabbed Terry Crews at that function? He's a star in one of the biggest and best comedy TV series' on the air at the moment - I doubt there is any real problem with him naming names at this point (especially if there are witnesses).
They'd have to prove it, or it's defamation and slander.

That's why these things have to reach critical mass, otherwise it's just one person twisting in the wind. "Everybody knew, why didn't everybody speak out" is one thing, but the prisoner's dilema is another, and (almost) nobody wants to risk that first bullet.
 

EternallyBored

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altnameJag said:
EternallyBored said:
Even if both parties are willing, ethically and professionally the person in a position of power is putting themselves at serious risk. Especially if you do it multiple times, if you are known to use your power to repeatedly engage in cronyism for sexual favors, someone who claims you harassed them has a solid preponderance of evidence to take you to court and bankrupt you, "beyond a reasonable doubt" only works in criminal court.
There's a reason Fraternization is an offense that can get you Court-martialed in the military, voluntary as it may be.

Also, @TheGnomeKing, why aren't you considering yourself to be the victim of a crime, considering that's exactly what you are? No, seriously, if turning down your manager cost you your job, that's retaliation. It's illegal as shit, man.
Also why so many corporations have policy against it as well as why people in power get in trouble for trading sex for favors/jobs/connections even if it's consensual, it's a massive lawsuit waiting to happen.

As for retaliation, Gnome would need to give more details, but yeah if it was actual retaliation that shit is illegal in most Western countries, in the US that would be a text book Title VII violation, most states also have laws on the books that would make what Gnome described illegal on the state level as well. Whether it's worth it to pursue such a case as evidence is hard to collect and prosecuting that in a court can take a long time is a challenge a lot of victims of sexual harassment face.

There is an odd line of thought I see in the US that seems to view anything you can't call the police on and have someone hauled off in handcuffs as "not a real crime", especially stuff like employee rights and protections, it seems to stem from this idea that criminal law is the only real law and civil offenses either don't exist or are apparently like Judge Judy and just involve people trying to get money for dubious reasons.
 

Thaluikhain

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altnameJag said:
NiGHTSJOD said:
Why did it take so long for such allegations to come out? I mean, I kind of get it why up and coming stars and starlets would stay quiet for fear of their fledgling careers dying. But why did it take so long for well established stars such as Angelina Jolie, Gwenyth Paltrow, Terry Crews etc... to say something? And even now, you have people making references to dodgy scenarios (and I'd well believe it) but why is it that no actual names are coming out? Who grabbed Terry Crews at that function? He's a star in one of the biggest and best comedy TV series' on the air at the moment - I doubt there is any real problem with him naming names at this point (especially if there are witnesses).
They'd have to prove it, or it's defamation and slander.

That's why these things have to reach critical mass, otherwise it's just one person twisting in the wind. "Everybody knew, why didn't everybody speak out" is one thing, but the prisoner's dilema is another, and (almost) nobody wants to risk that first bullet.
Not to mention, people had been talking about it beforehand, and been mostly ignored.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Thaluikhain said:
altnameJag said:
They'd have to prove it, or it's defamation and slander.

That's why these things have to reach critical mass, otherwise it's just one person twisting in the wind. "Everybody knew, why didn't everybody speak out" is one thing, but the prisoner's dilema is another, and (almost) nobody wants to risk that first bullet.
Not to mention, people had been talking about it beforehand, and been mostly ignored.
No kidding. People have been running up to the legal line for decades talking about this stuff. That's how "open secrets" work.

And the general public just laughed along and went, "oh yeah, Hollywood is terrible, but Courtney Love is crazy sooo..."
 

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Okay so we got another one, and this one pisses me off.
Child actor Anthony Rapp claims when he was 14 Kevin Spacey came on to him and tried to do things to him. In response Spacey has come out as gay and said that's basically what gay men do, so its okay...

And people seem to be buying it.

The fuck?! I could have sworn gay men liked other gay men. I remember there was another word for someone attracted to boys...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/30/entertainment/kevin-spacey-allegations-anthony-rapp/index.html
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Fuck's sake.

What a bastard. For sexually assaulting a child and throwing gay people under the bus.. (nvm, that's what I get for trusting secondhand sources)
 

CyanCat47_v1legacy

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Zontar said:
Gethsemani said:
You've been to university, you should know that the technical terms of specific science fields often mismatch to the popular use of the words.
I've been to college, never been to a university (unless you count physically being inside of one).

But this isn't a "professional vs laymen" use of the term, this is a "laymen with one political leaning vs laymen of any other leaning"
use of the term, much like how Trans means "anyone who isn't a man or a woman" to the far left, while to everyone else we still use it to mean those transitioning from one gender to the other.
Gender studies are no different in that regard, which is why it pays to actually read up on the terms and their connotations instead of just assuming you can deduce them from reading the words without context. This shouldn't really come as a shocker to you.
The only thing that tells me is that those in the politically driven areas of academia don't actually understand linguistics, though given the fact that terms like "homophobia", "transphobia" and "islamophobia" exist despite their linguistic meaning being at odds with their definition, I shouldn't be surprised.

When you keep making up terms that brake the rules of how our language works, why is anyone shocked when the 99% of society that isn't in the group making these terms doesn't know what the hell is trying to be said? If we need a term so badly, why not make one that actually follows the rules of English linguistics? If anything that would make it easier to make new terms to begin with.
Ah, grammar semantics, the best way to avoid actually talking about the subject matter.
 

Avnger

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Silentpony said:
and said that's basically what gay men do, so its okay...
You're going to have to help me out with this one.

Where the fuck did he say anything even close to this? I've read his tweet about 4 times, and no where does he say what he did was acceptable or "basically what gay men do."

Why are you pushing some bullshit narrative on this? It's not like the actions Spacey took aren't bad enough by themselves.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Silentpony said:
Okay so we got another one, and this one pisses me off.
Child actor Anthony Rapp claims when he was 14 Kevin Spacey came on to him and tried to do things to him. In response Spacey has come out as gay and said that's basically what gay men do, so its okay...

And people seem to be buying it.

The fuck?! I could have sworn gay men liked other gay men. I remember there was another word for someone attracted to boys...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/30/entertainment/kevin-spacey-allegations-anthony-rapp/index.html
I've got to ask...how have you extrapolated that Spacey used the "boys will be boys" defense and that people seem to be buying it, when the very article you've provided shows He basically used the moment to come out to deflect while claiming no memory and drunkenness, while the article quite clearly tells us people are not accepting it and are saying it's an outright deflection.

Public: "Hey, did you try to force yourself on an underage boy?"

Spacey: "Oh crap, err, I don't remember, probably drunk. Time to bravely come out the closet. Uhh, by the way; surprise!.....I am gay!" *Jazz hands*

...

*Tumbleweed*

Public: "Fuck off!"

Ah, wait, I found what you might mean.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/10/30/16570658/kevin-spacey-gay-anthony-rapp

Actor Kevin Spacey is the latest celebrity to face allegations of sexual abuse in the fallout of the Harvey Weinstein revelations. In new accusations, actor Anthony Rapp alleged, according to Adam Vary at BuzzFeed, that ?in 1986, Spacey befriended Rapp while they both performed on Broadway shows, invited Rapp over to his apartment for a party, and, at the end of the night, picked Rapp up, placed him on his bed, and climbed on top of him, making a sexual advance. According to public records, Spacey was 26. Rapp was 14.?

Spacey responded to the allegations in a statement. He wrote, ?I honestly do not remember the encounter, it would have been over 30 years ago. But if I did behave then as he describes, I owe him the sincerest apology for what would have been deeply inappropriate drunken behavior, and I am sorry for the feelings he describes having carried with him all these years.?

But then he went on to do something unusual: He used the last half of the statement to come out as gay. ?I have loved and had romantic encounters with men throughout my life, and I choose now to live as a gay man,? he declared.


It?s generally good when notable people come out. It shows gay people that despite a long history of anti-LGBTQ oppression, you can be gay and successful in American life. And LGBTQ activists, for one, say that more and more people coming out over the past couple of decades was key to building support for same-sex marriage and other rights.

But this news should not distract people from the bottom line: Spacey ? an A-list actor ? has been accused of aggressive sexual behavior toward an underage boy. Whether Spacey is gay is simply a footnote here. (Since this will inevitably come up, let?s be clear: Empirical research shows that gay men are not more likely than straight men to molest children or underage teens.)

The LGBTQ community has already pushed back against any inclusion of Spacey. Culture bloggers Tom and Lorenzo summed up the sentiment in a headline: ?On Behalf of the LGBT Community, Fuck Off, Kevin Spacey.? Advice columnist Dan Savage tweeted, ?I?m sorry, Mr. Spacey, but your application to join the gay community at this time has been denied.? And the LGBTQ group GLAAD slammed Spacey for coming out ?to deflect from allegations of sexual assault.?

Yet so far, multiple media outlets have given as much, if not more, attention to Spacey coming out.

One of Reuters?s tweets for this story, for example, only pointed out that Spacey is gay, leaving out the allegations.

The New York Times got the allegations in its tweet, but also pointed out that Spacey is now openly gay.

This seems diversionary ? what Spacey would want in this situation: Any news about him that is now focused on his sexual orientation will typically be more positive than Rapp?s allegations.

But we shouldn?t let this distract us. Again, Spacey was accused, as a big Hollywood celebrity, of abusing an underage boy. That should be the news of the day ? and Spacey?s coming out needs to take a far, far back seat in the face of the other news.

His bold strategy won't last long. Anybody who has come to terms with experience of abuse will see right through it at the very least.
 

the December King

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Xsjadoblayde said:
Silentpony said:
Okay so we got another one, and this one pisses me off.
Child actor Anthony Rapp claims when he was 14 Kevin Spacey came on to him and tried to do things to him. In response Spacey has come out as gay and said that's basically what gay men do, so its okay...

And people seem to be buying it.

The fuck?! I could have sworn gay men liked other gay men. I remember there was another word for someone attracted to boys...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/30/entertainment/kevin-spacey-allegations-anthony-rapp/index.html
I've got to ask...how have you extrapolated that Spacey used the "boys will be boys" defense and that people seem to be buying it, when the very article you've provided shows He basically used the moment to come out to deflect while claiming no memory and drunkenness, while the article quite clearly tells us people are not accepting it and are saying it's an outright deflection.

Public: "Hey, did you try to force yourself on an underage boy?"

Spacey: "Oh crap, err, I don't remember, probably drunk. Time to bravely come out the closet. Uhh, by the way; surprise!.....I am gay!" *Jazz hands*

...

*Tumbleweed*

Public: "Fuck off!"

Ah, wait, I found what you might mean.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/10/30/16570658/kevin-spacey-gay-anthony-rapp

Actor Kevin Spacey is the latest celebrity to face allegations of sexual abuse in the fallout of the Harvey Weinstein revelations. In new accusations, actor Anthony Rapp alleged, according to Adam Vary at BuzzFeed, that ?in 1986, Spacey befriended Rapp while they both performed on Broadway shows, invited Rapp over to his apartment for a party, and, at the end of the night, picked Rapp up, placed him on his bed, and climbed on top of him, making a sexual advance. According to public records, Spacey was 26. Rapp was 14.?

Spacey responded to the allegations in a statement. He wrote, ?I honestly do not remember the encounter, it would have been over 30 years ago. But if I did behave then as he describes, I owe him the sincerest apology for what would have been deeply inappropriate drunken behavior, and I am sorry for the feelings he describes having carried with him all these years.?

But then he went on to do something unusual: He used the last half of the statement to come out as gay. ?I have loved and had romantic encounters with men throughout my life, and I choose now to live as a gay man,? he declared.


It?s generally good when notable people come out. It shows gay people that despite a long history of anti-LGBTQ oppression, you can be gay and successful in American life. And LGBTQ activists, for one, say that more and more people coming out over the past couple of decades was key to building support for same-sex marriage and other rights.

But this news should not distract people from the bottom line: Spacey ? an A-list actor ? has been accused of aggressive sexual behavior toward an underage boy. Whether Spacey is gay is simply a footnote here. (Since this will inevitably come up, let?s be clear: Empirical research shows that gay men are not more likely than straight men to molest children or underage teens.)

The LGBTQ community has already pushed back against any inclusion of Spacey. Culture bloggers Tom and Lorenzo summed up the sentiment in a headline: ?On Behalf of the LGBT Community, Fuck Off, Kevin Spacey.? Advice columnist Dan Savage tweeted, ?I?m sorry, Mr. Spacey, but your application to join the gay community at this time has been denied.? And the LGBTQ group GLAAD slammed Spacey for coming out ?to deflect from allegations of sexual assault.?

Yet so far, multiple media outlets have given as much, if not more, attention to Spacey coming out.

One of Reuters?s tweets for this story, for example, only pointed out that Spacey is gay, leaving out the allegations.

The New York Times got the allegations in its tweet, but also pointed out that Spacey is now openly gay.

This seems diversionary ? what Spacey would want in this situation: Any news about him that is now focused on his sexual orientation will typically be more positive than Rapp?s allegations.

But we shouldn?t let this distract us. Again, Spacey was accused, as a big Hollywood celebrity, of abusing an underage boy. That should be the news of the day ? and Spacey?s coming out needs to take a far, far back seat in the face of the other news.

His bold strategy won't last long. Anybody who has come to terms with experience of abuse will see right through it at the very least.
I... I thought Spacey came out, like, eons ago (or just before now)? I don't think that this part of the story is even news at all, let alone a fair deflection tactic.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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the December King said:
I... I thought Spacey came out, like, eons ago (or just before now)? I don't think that this part of the story is even news at all, let alone a fair deflection tactic.
"Yet so far, multiple media outlets have given as much, if not more, attention to Spacey coming out."

"The New York Times got the allegations in its tweet, but also pointed out that Spacey is now openly gay."

Evidently not. It appears if he did...nobody remembered. Are you sure you're not confusing with a film character? I haven't followed his life's work to know.