Can we talk about the apparent culture of sexual abuse in the american film industry?

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
4,200
211
68
Finland
BeetleManiac said:
McElroy said:
It doesn't, but at least the victims can cash in.

edit: Sorry for the double post, I was too quick with the button.
That's too cynical for me. I'd rather at least make an effort to fix the system than just offer people cash as cold comfort for the knowledge that they will always effectively be second-class citizens next to the wealthy and powerful.
I agree in principle, but I don't think the US justice system is fair in the first place, and so a price tag on abuse cases seems fair(-est in the prevailing circumstances). Settlement and then forgetting is cynical, but I don't think deeming sexual harassment and something like statutory rape irredeemable and/or 5-10 years in prison is fair either. For example Polanski feared he would be put away for decades, and so he stopped being cooperative and left the US.
 

Tayh

New member
Apr 6, 2009
775
0
0
stroopwafel said:
Secondly though why do all these women only come out the woodwork when the media is ganging up on him and when he's already beaten to the ground? Either show some character and say he's a pig after he makes his pathetic avances and then walk away or when you do anything to get the role don't complain about it later.
They might have attempted to complain, but the HR, or whoever else received the complaint, might have suppressed them or outright ignored them.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

New member
Aug 28, 2008
4,696
0
0
I think this is what happens in all fields where someone has so much power and control that they can destroy people's dream jobs with a phonecall or advance them beyond normal levels for a sexual encounter.

That being said, it's obviously distasteful but this is nothing new in a community that awards people like Polanski and such. I don't really follow live action movies at all however and I don't think I've been to one in over a decade though so it's nice to not feel like I'm supporting terrible people. The way some people put celebrities on a pedestal is to blame for a lot of this. If people didn't care so much about these stupid things they wouldn't get away with it for decades.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,394
2,191
118
Country
United States
stroopwafel said:
Secondly though why do all these women only come out the woodwork when the media is ganging up on him and when he's already beaten to the ground? Either show some character and say he's a pig after he makes his pathetic avances and then walk away or when you do anything to get the role don't complain about it later. If your career is more important than your personal integrity, fine. But if you only have the courage to complain about it with the media mob and their pitch forks at your side it makes you a bit of a gutless hypocrite in my opinion.

This entire circus makes me vomit. No wonder all Hollywood movies are garbage.
Well, you can either except the same treatment from powerful people who have literal control over your dreams and who everybody around is seemingly okay with...

Or you can keep the moral high ground by accusing the rich and powerful of serious crimes with specious evidence, no public backing, and the only notoriety you'll ever have is from hordes of people telling you you're making it all up for attention until years or decades down the line, if ever, that dam bursts.

I mean, people had been joking and rumoring about Cosby's predations for years too, but the public wasn't going to believe it until lots of people came forward, previous lawsuits and allegations notwithstanding.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,394
2,191
118
Country
United States
Tayh said:
stroopwafel said:
Secondly though why do all these women only come out the woodwork when the media is ganging up on him and when he's already beaten to the ground? Either show some character and say he's a pig after he makes his pathetic avances and then walk away or when you do anything to get the role don't complain about it later.
They might have attempted to complain, but the HR, or whoever else received the complaint, might have suppressed them or outright ignored them.
See also: all the Tech industry stories about going to HR and them not doing anything.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
altnameJag said:
stroopwafel said:
Secondly though why do all these women only come out the woodwork when the media is ganging up on him and when he's already beaten to the ground? Either show some character and say he's a pig after he makes his pathetic avances and then walk away or when you do anything to get the role don't complain about it later. If your career is more important than your personal integrity, fine. But if you only have the courage to complain about it with the media mob and their pitch forks at your side it makes you a bit of a gutless hypocrite in my opinion.

This entire circus makes me vomit. No wonder all Hollywood movies are garbage.
Well, you can either except the same treatment from powerful people who have literal control over your dreams and who everybody around is seemingly okay with...

Or you can keep the moral high ground by accusing the rich and powerful of serious crimes with specious evidence, no public backing, and the only notoriety you'll ever have is from hordes of people telling you you're making it all up for attention until years or decades down the line, if ever, that dam bursts.

I mean, people had been joking and rumoring about Crosby's predations for years too, but the public wasn't going to believe it until lots of people came forward, previous lawsuits and allegations notwithstanding.
To this day some people don't believe the allegations. They think it was more 'casting couch' stuff. And they'd point out they're only allegations at this point. I don't think Cosby has been found guilty yet.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,394
2,191
118
Country
United States
Silentpony said:
To this day some people don't believe the allegations. They think it was more 'casting couch' stuff. And they'd point out they're only allegations at this point. I don't think Cosby has been found guilty yet.
Yep.

Never mind that "casting couch stuff" is massively gross to begin with and shouldn't be tolerated either.
 

Souplex

Souplex Killsplosion Awesomegasm
Jul 29, 2008
10,312
0
0
It's almost like the people with the inclination to become ultra-successful are bad people not restrained by morality.
 

Saltyk

Sane among the insane.
Sep 12, 2010
16,755
0
0
Silentpony said:
Well everyone knew for decades. It was a punchline. Once every few years another star comes out to discuss the abuse and are made to go away because what they're saying is inconvenient to the bottom line.
Weinstein doesn't make hit movies anymore. Its safe to go after him. Guarantee you if Miramax had a piece of the MCU or Star Wars or whatever not one person would have come out against him.
It was all about money and power and he ran out of both. So now its good business to come out against him. Everyone was happy to play along when he was making them money.
It's sad how true this is. I've seen countless "jokes" about having to sleep with Weinstein to advance your career. Several from years before this happened.

Silentpony said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Silentpony said:
Guarantee you if Miramax had a piece of the MCU or Star Wars or whatever not one person would have come out against him.
Sort of how nobody batted an eye when Joss Whedon was accused of the same sins Weinstein is purging right now.
Was he really? I honestly hadn't heard that. Only thing I heard about Joss was people hating him for that Black Widow = monster for not having babies scene...
Which never made sense to me. It was obviously that Black Widow was made into a killer therefore a monster.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
Souplex said:
It's almost like the people with the inclination to become ultra-successful are bad people not restrained by morality.
And that the people who flock to them are either equally amoral or are willing to look the other way if it gets them what they want. Weinstein, Cosby, Whedon apparently, every single music producer, all of 'em have a vast support network.
Weinstein used his secretaries as bait to get women into his office, then the secretary would leave. So they knew what was going on. The agents calling their clients to meet Harvey in a hotel room at midnight for a 'job interview' knew what was going on. The casting directors knew how X or Y got the role. The drivers of all of them knew.

These are massive, decades wide sex rings that happen to make movies every now and then.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
Saltyk said:
Silentpony said:
Well everyone knew for decades. It was a punchline. Once every few years another star comes out to discuss the abuse and are made to go away because what they're saying is inconvenient to the bottom line.
Weinstein doesn't make hit movies anymore. Its safe to go after him. Guarantee you if Miramax had a piece of the MCU or Star Wars or whatever not one person would have come out against him.
It was all about money and power and he ran out of both. So now its good business to come out against him. Everyone was happy to play along when he was making them money.
It's sad how true this is. I've seen countless "jokes" about having to sleep with Weinstein to advance your career. Several from years before this happened.

Silentpony said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Silentpony said:
Guarantee you if Miramax had a piece of the MCU or Star Wars or whatever not one person would have come out against him.
Sort of how nobody batted an eye when Joss Whedon was accused of the same sins Weinstein is purging right now.
Was he really? I honestly hadn't heard that. Only thing I heard about Joss was people hating him for that Black Widow = monster for not having babies scene...
Which never made sense to me. It was obviously that Black Widow was made into a killer therefore a monster.
I remember awhile back a video emerging of 17 year old Miley Cyrus giving a lapdance to her music producer for his bday, and it was totally cool. No one spoke out about it, everyone knew 'that's just how it is'. Came out in 2010 from a party in 2009 when she was 17. And everyone just wrote it off.

Yeah here it is:

Happens all the time.
 

Vanilla ISIS

New member
Dec 14, 2015
272
0
0
The biggest problem is that all of these women didn't say anything at the time when it was happening to them.

To that you might say: "They didn't want to ruin their careers."

If that's the case then their careers, money and fame, were more important to them than being sexually abused.
They could have just left Hollywood and get a different job, they could have pressed charges, they could have recorded everything.
It's not sexual abuse if you're going along with it in exchange for something else, it's a transaction.
They gave a Hollywood big shot some sexual pleasure and he gave them a role in a movie.
They're not victims, they're prostitutes.

I've read some testimonies from these women and they included things like:
"I found myself alone with him in his bedroom."
Oh, you "found yourself", did you?
Harvey Weinstein said "EXPECTO PATRONUM!!!" and you've appeared in his bedroom.
Give me a break.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,394
2,191
118
Country
United States
Or, the job "interview" was at his house and the valet wouldn't go get their car. Or their producer, who they trusted, sent them up their.

Or any number of things. There are probably s lot of women who turned him down. You don't hear from them though. They're nobodies.

Gross power imbalances are hard to imagine if you haven't experienced them yourself. Don't blame victims, yeah?

EDIT: Christ, you could make the same arguments for cop's coercing people for sex to get them out of crimes, real or extortive.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

New member
May 7, 2016
1,020
1
0
Old boy networks/cliques gonna old boy network/clique. Not much you can add to this. Nothing new to the human race, be it in the religious, corporate, entertainment, government, ect... sectors.
 

Johnny Novgorod

Bebop Man
Legacy
Apr 10, 2020
17,072
1,163
118
Country
Argentina
Silentpony said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Silentpony said:
Guarantee you if Miramax had a piece of the MCU or Star Wars or whatever not one person would have come out against him.
Sort of how nobody batted an eye when Joss Whedon was accused of the same sins Weinstein is purging right now.
Was he really? I honestly hadn't heard that. Only thing I heard about Joss was people hating him for that Black Widow = monster for not having babies scene...
Wintermute said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
I know a lot of you like Avengers but let's not forget Joss "Casting Couch" Whedon as well.
I thought he was a feminist with lots of respect for women or something. What did he do? Was it worse than "watch me jack off into this plant?"
Nothing as gross as Weinstein but his wife says he's been banging wannabes since Buffy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/22/hypocrite-preaching-feminist-ideals-director-joss-whedons-ex-wife-accuses-him-of-cheating/?utm_term=.7960bf1b7646
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
Vanilla ISIS said:
The biggest problem is that all of these women didn't say anything at the time when it was happening to them.

To that you might say: "They didn't want to ruin their careers."

If that's the case then their careers, money and fame, were more important to them than being sexually abused.
They could have just left Hollywood and get a different job, they could have pressed charges, they could have recorded everything.
It's not sexual abuse if you're going along with it in exchange for something else, it's a transaction.
They gave a Hollywood big shot some sexual pleasure and he gave them a role in a movie.
They're not victims, they're prostitutes.

I've read some testimonies from these women and they included things like:
"I found myself alone with him in his bedroom."
Oh, you "found yourself", did you?
Harvey Weinstein said "EXPECTO PATRONUM!!!" and you've appeared in his bedroom.
Give me a break.
That's something I struggle with too. Kate Beckinsale says she was invited to his hotel room at 11 at night for a "work meeting" So her agent at the time knew what was going on, her parents, driver, Weinstein's secretary, all of them. Apparently the only one who didn't know what 11 pm hotel room meetings meant was Kate.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
14,931
763
118
Must we blame the victims all the time? Plenty of other people we could blame, starting with some guy called Weinstein.
 

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Apr 29, 2020
3,031
354
88
Thaluikhain said:
Must we blame the victims all the time? Plenty of other people we could blame, starting with some guy called Weinstein.
No doubt Wienstien is a dirty old man but he didn't force himself on anyone hence there are no victims to begin with. Only calculated self-interests that are either benefited by complying with Wienstien's desires or benefited by throwing rocks at him when he's crucified by the media. Either way it's a hypocrite shit show.
 

wizzy555

New member
Oct 14, 2010
637
0
0
stroopwafel said:
Thaluikhain said:
Must we blame the victims all the time? Plenty of other people we could blame, starting with some guy called Weinstein.
No doubt Wienstien is a dirty old man but he didn't force himself on anyone hence there are no victims to begin with. Only calculated self-interests that are either benefited by complying with Wienstien's desires or benefited by throwing rocks at him when he's crucified by the media. Either way it's a hypocrite shit show.
I don't know what you've been reading but I'm seeing plenty of accusations of him forcing himself on people.

Of course I don't know the truth of the matter but when you compare the accusations Whedon comes off as a saint.