Can we talk about the apparent culture of sexual abuse in the american film industry?

EscapistAccount

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Nothing as gross as Weinstein but his wife says he's been banging wannabes since Buffy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/22/hypocrite-preaching-feminist-ideals-director-joss-whedons-ex-wife-accuses-him-of-cheating/?utm_term=.7960bf1b7646
This is why talking about this kind of thing gets so complicated; someone does something allegedly illegal and then other people get dragged into it who didn't do anything illegal but did something legal, albeit icky.
 

Casual Shinji

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stroopwafel said:
Even that is bullshit. Weinstien tried a similar thing with Cara Delevingne and she told him to suck it and still got the part. Didn't put a dent in her career either. Weiner is just trying his chances with hot young women not coercing them. Anyone who did give him some favors did so out of their own volition. Does that make him an old perv? For sure but the movie industry based on looks and 'sex appeal' probably attracts a different kind of person than the local soup kitchen.
She didn't tell him to suck it, she managed to talk her way out of a situation where he tried to force himself onto her. And she did so in a way as to not get on his bad side.
 

EternallyBored

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stroopwafel said:
EternallyBored said:
The choice is not a choice between working at a pizza place or sucking Weinstein?s dick, it?s a choice between being able to work in the movie business at all or having a major player actively trying to blackball you from an industry. So more like: ?suck my dick or I?ll make sure the years you spent taking classes, practicing, doing small bit parts or commercials and trying to make connections with other people is wasted?. I don?t know about you but if someone on the social work licensing board threatened to turn my years of degree work and 7 years of work experience in my field into mostly useless ash unless I slept with them, I would consider that pretty damn coercive.
Even that is bullshit. Weinstien tried a similar thing with Cara Delevingne and she told him to suck it and still got the part. Didn't put a dent in her career either. Weiner is just trying his chances with hot young women not coercing them. Anyone who did give him some favors did so out of their own volition. Does that make him an old perv? For sure but the movie industry based on looks and 'sex appeal' probably attracts a different kind of person than the local soup kitchen.
Just because someone can find a way around the coercion doesn?t suddenly make it not coercion, like trying and failing to rob someone is still a crime even if the guy you tried to rob beat the shit out of you.

To get closer to the point, the teacher that tries to get a student to sleep with them can still be guilty of sexual harassment/ assault and is in serious ethical breach and liable to lose their license even if the student drops the class and gets their degree with other teachers. Threats are coercive even if someone manages to find a way around them, that is like ethics 101 that example you used is exactly the scenario they teach in classes about getting in trouble as a professional even if the person does not give in to your demands you are still guilty of a professional and ethical breach of conduct.
 

Cowabungaa

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Zontar said:
(even though I just know social justice types will use this to pretend there's a rape culture in the West when the very reason this had to be kept so secret is because the literal opposite is the case).
This... This is rape culture. How the fuck can you pretend like it isn't there when we're talking about it?! What kind of crazy cognitive dissonance are you displaying here?!
 

Zontar

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Cowabungaa said:
Zontar said:
(even though I just know social justice types will use this to pretend there's a rape culture in the West when the very reason this had to be kept so secret is because the literal opposite is the case).
This... This is rape culture. How the fuck can you pretend like it isn't there when we're talking about it?! What kind of crazy cognitive dissonance are you displaying here?!
The response to people finding out is the literal opposite of what a rape culture would be. You want a rape culture, find me one where this doesn't have a massive negative response when people find out, because that, my friend, is what a rape culture is. Unless the leftist version of the term is one that's functionally meaningless, in which case it serves no purpose to begin with.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Zontar said:
Cowabungaa said:
Zontar said:
(even though I just know social justice types will use this to pretend there's a rape culture in the West when the very reason this had to be kept so secret is because the literal opposite is the case).
This... This is rape culture. How the fuck can you pretend like it isn't there when we're talking about it?! What kind of crazy cognitive dissonance are you displaying here?!
The response to people finding out is the literal opposite of what a rape culture would be. You want a rape culture, find me one where this doesn't have a massive negative response when people find out, because that, my friend, is what a rape culture is. Unless the leftist version of the term is one that's functionally meaningless, in which case it serves no purpose to begin with.
People have been talking about this for literal years, and it only gained traction as a serious thing due to overwhelming testimony.

Weinstein's going to Europe for "Sex Addiction counseling", won't face any major legal action, is going to be paid handsomely for getting fired, and will likely continue producing movies and collecting royalties on movies he previously produced.

So, not quite a "massive negative response" happening here.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Zontar said:
The response to people finding out is the literal opposite of what a rape culture would be. You want a rape culture, find me one where this doesn't have a massive negative response when people find out, because that, my friend, is what a rape culture is. Unless the leftist version of the term is one that's functionally meaningless, in which case it serves no purpose to begin with.
Apparently Weinstein's predatory behavior has been known in Hollywood for at least two decades (when Paltrow spoke about it on Letterman in 1998). That makes it textbook rape culture, since everyone is aware that he's being a sexual predator that coerces young actresses into having sex with him in return for not having their careers sunk. Everyone knows. No one does anything. No one. It isn't until journalists publicly expose him that everyone who's known about this for years decides to distance themselves from Weinstein and his shitty, criminal behavior.

That's rape culture: When it is allowed to go on because the guy doing the raping has power, connections and friends and the people he rapes has no way of making their voices heard. Of course everyone distances themselves from him when he's exposed, because everyone agrees rape is bad. But until he was exposed it was an open secret and yet no one did anything to stop him, at best they warned young actresses to stay away from him.
 

Casual Shinji

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Vanilla ISIS said:
Casual Shinji said:
Vanilla ISIS said:
It's not sexual abuse if you're going along with it in exchange for something else, it's a transaction.
You mean, like in exchange for your life? Not saying this is the same thing exactly, but looking at it like that and a rape at gunpoint is also merely a transaction.
One involves consent, the other doesn't.
One involves "consent" under threat, and so does the other.
 

Zontar

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Gethsemani said:
That's rape culture
So we are in fact confirming that it's a functionally useless term that implies something dramatically different then what it actually is when one takes linguistics into account.

Well, good to know. Too bad the English language continues its march into being two dialects between the left and the rest though, mix ups like this will only continue so long as a third of the population uses a different lexicon the the other two thirds.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Zontar said:
So we are in fact confirming that it's a functionally useless term that implies something dramatically different then what it actually is when one takes linguistics into account.
You've been to university, you should know that the technical terms of specific science fields often mismatch to the popular use of the words. Gender studies are no different in that regard, which is why it pays to actually read up on the terms and their connotations instead of just assuming you can deduce them from reading the words without context. This shouldn't really come as a shocker to you.
 

Zontar

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Gethsemani said:
You've been to university, you should know that the technical terms of specific science fields often mismatch to the popular use of the words.
I've been to college, never been to a university (unless you count physically being inside of one).

But this isn't a "professional vs laymen" use of the term, this is a "laymen with one political leaning vs laymen of any other leaning"
use of the term, much like how Trans means "anyone who isn't a man or a woman" to the far left, while to everyone else we still use it to mean those transitioning from one gender to the other.
Gender studies are no different in that regard, which is why it pays to actually read up on the terms and their connotations instead of just assuming you can deduce them from reading the words without context. This shouldn't really come as a shocker to you.
The only thing that tells me is that those in the politically driven areas of academia don't actually understand linguistics, though given the fact that terms like "homophobia", "transphobia" and "islamophobia" exist despite their linguistic meaning being at odds with their definition, I shouldn't be surprised.

When you keep making up terms that brake the rules of how our language works, why is anyone shocked when the 99% of society that isn't in the group making these terms doesn't know what the hell is trying to be said? If we need a term so badly, why not make one that actually follows the rules of English linguistics? If anything that would make it easier to make new terms to begin with.
 

Otakun

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Zhukov said:
stroopwafel said:
Secondly though why do all these women only come out the woodwork when the media is ganging up on him and when he's already beaten to the ground? Either show some character and say he's a pig after he makes his pathetic avances and then walk away or when you do anything to get the role don't complain about it later. If your career is more important than your personal integrity, fine. But if you only have the courage to complain about it with the media mob and their pitch forks at your side it makes you a bit of a gutless hypocrite in my opinion.
Well done Escapist. We managed to go an entire half of a page before victim blaming.

Baby steps!
Yeap, personal responsibility doesn't exist when it comes to women. They're too stupid to defend themselves.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Otakun said:
Zhukov said:
stroopwafel said:
Secondly though why do all these women only come out the woodwork when the media is ganging up on him and when he's already beaten to the ground? Either show some character and say he's a pig after he makes his pathetic avances and then walk away or when you do anything to get the role don't complain about it later. If your career is more important than your personal integrity, fine. But if you only have the courage to complain about it with the media mob and their pitch forks at your side it makes you a bit of a gutless hypocrite in my opinion.
Well done Escapist. We managed to go an entire half of a page before victim blaming.

Baby steps!
Yeap, personal responsibility doesn't exist when it comes to women. They're too stupid to defend themselves.
I understand both sides of this - a power dynamic can be used as coercion or indeed blackmail. Take President Clitnon for example. Everyone agrees his affair with Monica was consensual. But she could have easily saved herself by saying she was forced. Put in a room with the President of the US, who has the power to say no, and indeed does the President take no for an answer?
So to a president of a major production company if you're a young actress hoping to make it big.

But at the same time these scenarios sound comically overblown and like something from a bad porno. He invites these women to a hotel room at night by themselves and they're shocked when he whips out his dick?
And as I've said before at least a dozen people are involved in any meeting in Hollywood. Agents, secretaries, drivers, etc...It's boggles the mind Hollywood expects us to believe no one knew anything.
 

EscapistAccount

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Gethsemani said:
You've been to university, you should know that the technical terms of specific science fields often mismatch to the popular use of the words. Gender studies are no different in that regard, which is why it pays to actually read up on the terms and their connotations instead of just assuming you can deduce them from reading the words without context. This shouldn't really come as a shocker to you.
Although, the flip side of this is that if you work in a field with technical language and someone outside your field asks you a question/needs to be told something, you should be translating your thoughts into muggle before sharing them.
 

stroopwafel

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Casual Shinji said:
Vanilla ISIS said:
Casual Shinji said:
Vanilla ISIS said:
It's not sexual abuse if you're going along with it in exchange for something else, it's a transaction.
You mean, like in exchange for your life? Not saying this is the same thing exactly, but looking at it like that and a rape at gunpoint is also merely a transaction.
One involves consent, the other doesn't.
One involves "consent" under threat, and so does the other.
I don't know how much lack in actual life experience one must have to equate a dirty old creep taking his chances with someone threatening your life at gunpoint. You could also easily turn it around. How many of these actresses/models etc would we have never even heard of if they didn't give Wiener a happy? You think these women who are now rich and famous would have rather had a woman or perma-virgin do the casting? Ha, don't make me laugh. Oh no surely they would have made it with their 'talent'. Right.

Fact is Wiener is an old creep but women used him just as well to advance their careers. One only has to look at his wife. If you think a woman like that would have fallen for him if he was Bob from IT I don't even know what to say.
 

Trunkage

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Zontar said:
Gethsemani said:
That's rape culture
So we are in fact confirming that it's a functionally useless term that implies something dramatically different then what it actually is when one takes linguistics into account.

Well, good to know. Too bad the English language continues its march into being two dialects between the left and the rest though, mix ups like this will only continue so long as a third of the population uses a different lexicon the the other two thirds.
Well, if we are doing that, can we put SJW in there too. Or PC... I could go on, but it seems your point is that you want to dismiss people here because they use terms you don't like.

Your post was the first to talk about rape culture. It wasn't even replied to for a whole page. Generally everyone was having a good discussion. (Also, this means that people are literally ignore what you say... is that what you want

Your claim that no one spoke out is false. People spoke out. It didn't work 20yrs ago. It didn't work 10 yrs ago. If you don't want to call it rape culture - fine. How about you put a term on it. It doesn't stop it from happening and we have no good way around it. There are plenty of actors as well that should be ousted like this. I personally would like to see anyone engaging in this go to jail. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen.
 

maninahat

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stroopwafel said:
Casual Shinji said:
Vanilla ISIS said:
Casual Shinji said:
Vanilla ISIS said:
It's not sexual abuse if you're going along with it in exchange for something else, it's a transaction.
You mean, like in exchange for your life? Not saying this is the same thing exactly, but looking at it like that and a rape at gunpoint is also merely a transaction.
One involves consent, the other doesn't.
One involves "consent" under threat, and so does the other.
I don't know how much lack in actual life experience one must have to equate a dirty old creep taking his chances with someone threatening your life at gunpoint. You could also easily turn it around. How many of these actresses/models etc would we have never even heard of if they didn't give Wiener a happy? You think these women who are now rich and famous would have rather had a woman or perma-virgin do the casting? Ha, don't make me laugh. Oh no surely they would have made it with their 'talent'. Right.

Fact is Wiener is an old creep but women used him just as well to advance their careers. One only has to look at his wife. If you think a woman like that would have fallen for him if he was Bob from IT I don't even know what to say.
Jesus, next you'll be saying we should thank Wiener for picking out the hotties for us to see.

I thought it was taken as granted that in every industry (yes, including the sex industry) that if a person bases their offer of work on condition of whether you will have sex with them, they are coercing you into sex - which is sexual harassment, potentially rape, and completely illegal in either case. I know the internet exists for people to explain why other's analogies aren't apt, but the point of that one given to you was to show that there are circumstances where ostensibly consenting to something doesn't mean they weren't put under duress to do it; hence, me giving a mugger my wallet isn't really consent by any reasonable understanding of the term, and neither is a desperate actress agreeing to sex for a part. Finally, whether or not consent exists in these cases is irrelevant in light of the fact that they shouldn't be mugging you or trying to have sex with you in the first place.
 

stroopwafel

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maninahat said:
I thought it was taken as granted that in every industry (yes, including the sex industry) that if a person bases their offer of work on condition of whether you will have sex with them, they are coercing you into sex - which is sexual harassment, potentially rape, and completely illegal in either case. I know the internet exists for people to explain why other's analogies aren't apt, but the point of that one given to you was to show that there are circumstances where ostensibly consenting to something doesn't mean they weren't put under duress to do it; hence, me giving a mugger my wallet isn't really consent by any reasonable understanding of the term, and neither is a desperate actress agreeing to sex for a part. Finally, whether or not consent exists in these cases is irrelevant in light of the fact that they shouldn't be mugging you or trying to have sex with you in the first place.
You are stretching the term 'coercion' beyond the point of any credibility. No, a mugger who physcially threatens someone at gunpoint isn't the same situation as a sleezy casting agent making insinuations to aspiring actresses about 'alternative' ways to advance their careers. One has the opportunity to decline the other does not. If you think sleezy behavior constitutes 'rape' I hope you're not a lawyer b/c this allegation would be turned into mincemeat in any criminal court. Even in the unlikely scenario the judge is a white knight SJW cuck.
 

Casual Shinji

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stroopwafel said:
I don't know how much lack in actual life experience one must have to equate a dirty old creep taking his chances with someone threatening your life at gunpoint. You could also easily turn it around. How many of these actresses/models etc would we have never even heard of if they didn't give Wiener a happy? You think these women who are now rich and famous would have rather had a woman or perma-virgin do the casting? Ha, don't make me laugh. Oh no surely they would have made it with their 'talent'. Right.

Fact is Wiener is an old creep but women used him just as well to advance their careers. One only has to look at his wife. If you think a woman like that would have fallen for him if he was Bob from IT I don't even know what to say.
You seem disturbingly adamant in implying this is somekind of female conspiracy that an old but otherwise harmless creep was the victim of. And that any woman with a carreer in Hollywood claiming sexual haressment is automatically some vain, talentless slut who slept her way to the top and is now just ditching her sugar daddy. In which case, wow dude... Seriously, fucking wow! Way to show an extremely distasteful side of yourself.

And one wonders why many victims of sexual haressment don't speak out.
 

maninahat

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stroopwafel said:
maninahat said:
I thought it was taken as granted that in every industry (yes, including the sex industry) that if a person bases their offer of work on condition of whether you will have sex with them, they are coercing you into sex - which is sexual harassment, potentially rape, and completely illegal in either case. I know the internet exists for people to explain why other's analogies aren't apt, but the point of that one given to you was to show that there are circumstances where ostensibly consenting to something doesn't mean they weren't put under duress to do it; hence, me giving a mugger my wallet isn't really consent by any reasonable understanding of the term, and neither is a desperate actress agreeing to sex for a part. Finally, whether or not consent exists in these cases is irrelevant in light of the fact that they shouldn't be mugging you or trying to have sex with you in the first place.
You are stretching the term 'coercion' beyond the point of any credibility. No, a mugger who physcially threatens someone at gunpoint isn't the same situation as a sleezy casting agent making insinuations to aspiring actresses about 'alternative' ways to advance their careers. One has the opportunity to decline the other does not. If you think sleezy behavior constitutes 'rape' I hope you're not a lawyer b/c this allegation would be turned into mincemeat in any criminal court. Even in the unlikely scenario the judge is a white knight SJW cuck.
It is same in the only part that counts in this anology: "consent" doesn't matter, because the concept flies out the window once someone is threatening you with harm if you don't do what they want. It doesn't have to be physical harm. Also, you keep framing it in terms of choice, but to be pedantic, I have the choice to decline a mugger. He might kill me on the spot, or he might be just holding a water pistol and do nothing. Either way, he's still trying to put me under duress, illegally pressuring me into making a decision I really don't want to make, so that removes any sense of actual consent.

Also, I'm not a lawyer, but I am a HR person and the stance I'm taking is standard for any organisation: A person who brings a person into their business and starts making business arrangements in exchange for sex is committing to sexual harassment. It is illegal for staff to sexually harass people; it is an inherently abusive thing to do, regardless of whether the victim is genuinely "up for it". Consent is actually irrelevant to the fact that something illegal is being proposed in the first place and consent doesn't stop that thing being illegal.